I agree with you, don't debate the issue. The more you debate with some people, the more self-righteous they seem to feel. It's pointless.

well it gets tricky when you're at work especially when you are their boss. You can open a huge human resource issue or even a lawsuit for discrimination if you're not careful. It's amazing how eaily people can be offended or even "scared" of you bc of your religion.

I won't debate my religion with anyone. But people come ask me things and I'm always happy to tell them my opinion and help them out if I can.

The idea of taking responsiblity for your own actions is not hard to understand even when it applies to standing by your principles. You aren't released from that responsiblity just because you don't like the reaction you get, any more than the person reacting to you can deny responsiblity for how they react.

I have to say that I’m with Hunter on this one. You've tried to compare apples to oranges. It’s not a matter of taking responsibility for Bubba bashing your head in. It’s a matter of taking responsibility for the actions that triggered his response. If he’s just sitting there not bothering anyone, walking up to him and telling him he’s stupid (even if it’s true) is not doing anything to help anyone. Similarly, arguing about your right to practice whatever religion you want, with someone who is unable to think logically about the subject, is not doing anything to help anyone either.

Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in no matter what it costs, but weigh the costs with what they accomplish. There is probably a better place to get better results than in the workplace.

If I follow that logic than women who dress scantily deserve to get raped.

Then one should suffer discrimination because it will upset the discriminating party?

And we are not talking about bubba sitting there quietly. In the scenario I brought up bubba has stayed that I don't have the right to express my religious beliefs in the same socially accepted ways as a Christian.

You are right. All I'm saying is that once you decide what you are going to do about it you will be responsible for your actions.

And I would not have been able to be a police officer if the women before me didn't take on that issue of discrimination in the work place.

I completely agree that if I choose to fight this I should expect a fight. But if someone hits you first and you hit back is it your fault that you are now involved in a brawl? I guess technically it is and one has to pick there battles carefully. But how long do you let someone get away with hitting you?

And I'm sure she weighed the costs and went on with it knowing what she was getting into and accepting that responsibility. Do you think she was surprised by the reaction she got? Or did she take it on knowing that it was worth the fight? That is called taking responsibility for your own actions too. The people she had to stand up to probably denied any responsibility for their actions.

I see what you are saying now and I agree.

In my small town the first thing people ask you is who you are related to and the second thing they ask is what church do you go to.

If you want to fit in right away, you need to have relatives who homesteaded here, and be a member of some church. Try to be pagan and you are asking for alienation.

I don't think its because the majority are practicing Christians. I suspect many of those people are Christians just to fit into the club.

But there are those who are not Christians, and they basically don't flaunt it if they want to fit in at all.

I have had some conflicts with the local churches with my tarot card reading and a few people tried to save my soul who thought I was consorting with the devil.

Recently the female pastor of the Methodist Church (who is probably of Arab decent) came to visit me. I thought she wanted to preach or convert, but she actually wanted me to do a tarot card reading for her about something she was worried about. She was very nice and thanked me for being nice to her and invited me to visit her sometime. I wonder if other people are not so nice to her because of her race. She said she councils a lot of people but that she had no one to talk to herself. She was very sincere and sweet.

I think people should just be kind to each other and not be concerned about the club or religion they belong to. Belief is a private thing. If you find someone to share it with all the better, if not, don't flaunt your different beliefs but don't hide them either. If you hide them, you may not find anyone who also believes the way you do.

Christians will wear a cross, pagans may wear a pentacle or other symbol around their neck. Don't be afraid to be who you are, but don't be on the defensive about it either.

These are my thoughts about it.

jb

Luckily for me I work at home, but in office settings in the past my theoretical leanings (I won't call it "belief" because I really try to get along on as little belief or "faith" as possible) have ALWAYS caused me problems and I ALWAYS end up getting the sh1t end of the stick. (Yes, I said "always". People can tell just by the way I DON'T say anything that I'm "not one of the cool kids". If I try to play along, that gives me away just as quickly.)

But that's not religion, that's just how offices are, especially if there are a lot of female employees. Females tend to try to make their workplace into a "family". (Lest it sound like I'm bashing females, I'm not--this is a fact and can be looked up. There have been a number of studies done regarding this subject.) While men usually keep a distance from their coworkers, colleagues, and underlings, women want to be in their coworkers' business, and they give each person a "role" in the office family. There's no way one can escape it. (I am typically cast as the scapegoat, in case you are wondering.)

In one of the last office settings I worked in, I was getting hassled by a lesbian coworker who was a Wiccan. It was extremely stressful. She would do things like take little objects from my desk or purse and do spells on them, and put them back. I would get to that office at 0500, and often be the very first person there. One time this lady got there before me and marked things--the doorknobs, the walls, and the bathroom sink and mirror--with blood. I'm not sure why she did this but I think it was directed at me, because an hour later, when everyone else started coming in, it was all gone.

I ended up getting fired from that job because of my "violent, self-destructive jokes"--it was basically because I came in on Halloween with "Crow" makeup. (You know: The Crow, a cartoon character. He's awesome!)

Anyway: Don't ever suppose that discriminatory or abusive behavior is exclusive to Christians; it's definitely not.

NOTE: I'm not expressing a bias against Wiccans or religious people in general, here, either! I don't care what people believe in or how they worship, or if they worship at all.

Everyone has a right to his or her own beliefs. In the office setting, however, I prefer for people to behave in a professional manner. In the past when I have employed people or managed them, I try to discourage in as gentle a way as possible those who make their religious leanings so obvious that there's no way to overlook them. I try to discourage people from forming cliques based on religious affiliation. I do this in the name of professionalism and a calm, friendly, organized work environment.

If someone challenges me, it's usually someone who has fundamentalist Christian beliefs. I will, once the conflict gets to a certain point, take that person into a private setting and allow him or her to vent for a time--I force myself to listen to whatever the person says, and give him/her ample opportunity to express whatever it is that he wants to express.

Once it seems like he's finished and said everything he wants to say, I'll say something like, "So, I'm getting here that you feel that everyone should be proud of his beliefs and be able to express them in the work setting regardless of whether it's considered appropriate by others or not?"

The answer will always be a vehement "yes".

I will then say, "Do you know what the Temple of Set is?"

The answer will always be a somewhat confused-sounding "no".

I will then say, "The Temple of Set is a church for those of us who tend toward atheistic or agnostic, intellectually-based Satanism. Would you be comfortable if I displayed the upside-down pentagram in a frame behind my desk? When I take off early on May Eve, would you like for me to wish everyone 'season's greetings' and tell them where I'm headed, maybe invite them to the bonfire?"

That usually shuts em up. yours in Chaos, Scarlett

Interesting points you bring up. My office is almost all women and what you described is the way it feels at work.

I worked in an office that was entirely female at one point and it was constant chatter. I sometimes got a head ache. I mean I enjoyed it up to a point but sometimes I just wanted to work and keep to myself and I always felt forced into "compulsory fraternization".

I went to a party on Friday night for this very reason. It was a girls night with my co workers and I went even though I didn't feel like it. I believe my exact words to a friend were "I don't want to get kicked out of the club".

Here is an interesting fact about women who live or work together on a daily basis: eventually their menstrual cycles will all synchronize. They will on be having PMS at the same time. I have seen this happen many times. Very odd.

jb