Easily dismiss it?

You've heard my life's story several times Eljay. To claim that I easily dismissed Christianity is the biggest lie you can possible fabricate.

You know very well that I fought tooth and nail to try to salvage the religion against all odds. I finally had no choice but to confess that it can't possibly be true.

It' can't be true. Eljay. It's not even a question of whether I would personally like for it to be true. The very picture is a complete contradiction of every premise that Bible holds to be true.

The Biblical God is anything but wise or Fatherly.

~~~

It simply cannot be that God is playing craps with our souls based on a guessing game of whether or not we believe that Jesus was actually his Son whom he sent here with the express intention of being nailed to a cross for the sake of appeasing himself for our disobedience and thus 'paying' for our 'sins'.

The story demands that God is a blood thirsty idiot. Everyone tries to make out like the Crucifixion would have been the greatest act of love possible, but that they fail to realize is that it was this very God who was demanding the blood sacrifice in the first place!!!

It's an oxymoron!

If God wanted to just forgive man of his disobedience he could have just done so. There would be no need for him to send his 'son' to 'pay' for the sin via a blood sacrifice.

It's an absurd nonsensical story that no sane person should believe. Yet you are trying to claim that to not believe it is grounds to send a person to hell?

If you can't see the paradox in that then you'll never see anything.

The mere fact that you can believe such an irrational picture that flies in the face of God being an all-wise or a all-loving Fatherly Figure, then there's no hope for you.

If you see the Bible as an example of great parenting skills I can only give you my deepest sympathy and pray that you've never raised any children of your own.

Voileazur

You said something funny.
You said "absolutes are absolutely wrong"

The statement is itself an absolute.

The statement is therefore absolutely wrong, which in turn means that absolutes are NOT wrong.

I cant help myself. I debate like I play chess. Ruthless and decisive......but I understand yours and Krizmas sentiment.
I do.

You are very diplomatic....I am not quite nearly as charming.

I don't have to read it dear Jessie.

Scripture written prior to Christ foretelling his life and death is not prophecy if the New Testament was written by a plagiarizer who read said stories and then decided to write a fiction about how they came to pass.

The authors of the New Testament could well have had access to any and all scripture to aid them in the creation of the newer scriptures written after the old ones in an effort to create the new and improved religion of Christianity.

JB

What is absolute about asserting that there is "no right and wrong" as far as these forums are concerned? Isn’t that the opposite of an absolute statement? Okay well if you see ANYTHING that has been posted that can be classified as irrefutable fact, scientific or religious, you be sure to point that out to me sweetie okay?

Jeannie bean

What proof do you bring to the table to prove your unique and rather lonely, I say lonely since I know no credible scholar with such a view, assertion....Secular scholarship is not so bold. I want evidence....

good for you larry, anyone else?

When it comes to the abstract notions of God and spirituality I'm in complete agreement that there can be no concrete answers. It's impossible to prove or disprove the existence of any spiritual world. (at least with our current knowledge of the world). That could change in the future.

However, when it comes to religious doctrines we're already talking about something that is "concrete". We talking about stories that are basically "carved in stone" so-to-speak.

It is my convinction that concrete doctines, can indeed be shown to be 'concretely self-contradicting'.

I personally hold that the biblical canon of stories is one such doctrine. It proclaims that God must have certain characteristics, but then goes on to tell stories of a God who acts totally 'out of character'.

I personally hold that many of the demands that the bible supposedly makes fly in the face of the character that their Godhead is supposed to have.

So in that sense, concrete doctrines, can indeed be shown to be concretely contradictive.

Here just on of a myriad of examples:

In the Gospel of John, John states that Jesus said:

Jesus supposedly said: "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

So here is Jesus saying in his own words that he will not judge people for not believing in him.

Thus any Christian who holds otherwise is a liar and going against what Jesus taught.

Now, they argue that in the versus that follow Jesus goes on to say that the Father WILL judge him. But that's vague at best.

Not only that but it flies directly in the face of another thing that John wrote in the very same gospel. John claims that Jesus said,....

Jesus: "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son"

Well, here we have Jesus saying that the Father judgeth no man and that all judgments have been committed unto the Son"

So this concretely flies in the face of the idea that if the Son don't get you the Old Man will!

Someone needs to get their act together better.

According to the gospel of John, Jesus will not judge anyone for not believing in him, and the father judgeth no man.

So Christians who claim otherwise are making up their own crap. Where do they get this crap? It doesn't even fit into their gospels.

Why are they preaching crap that goes against what Jesus taught and then calling themselves "Christians"?

Who are they try claim that Jesus, or God, will judge non-believers harshly when Jesus himself said no way!

It's a runaway religion that is compeltely off track.

It's a train-wreck theology that doesn't even agree with it's own doctrine that is supposed to be the word of its God.

Christians have no right to tell anyone who Jesus will or will not Judge! That very notion is an anti-Christ notion!

You want evidence of what exactly? To prove that what you say, which you have no evidence for either, is untrue?

You begin with the assertion that the Bible is the word of God and the gospel truth. This is unproven.

"Written by men inspired by God." means nothing, and is only taken on faith.

My investigation has just begun and I am sharing my conclusions with others interested on several threads.

I have listed some of my sources in another post in this thread.

(I have a theory of my own also. I find the subject very interesting.)

I am beginning my investigation on the premise that the New Testament is a fabrication written by Roman aristocrats.

I begin by reading a book called "The True Authorship Of The New Testament" by Abelard Reuchlin

I am also studying the works of Flavius Josephus, who may have been a fictional character or just a pen name.

JB

If you want evidence what are you believing in the Bible for?

There is no evidence to support the divine claims of the Bible.

It's an entirely faith-based religion. No evidence available. Sorry.

On the contrary the only evidence is that it completely contradics itself over and over and over again.

Besides, who here has died and come back? I know its possible someone has. The only problem with that premise is the brain is sort of an electrical/organic system so that might very well explain why people see lights and tunnels or their "lives flashing before them." It may not really be much more than that. So since this is simply a fact. No one here can know what happens post mortem and maybe nothing. Maybe its just lights out.

Abracadabra

If there is no evidence, only faith, and you have none.....Then what are you here for?..... Keeping others from faith maybe? Destroying those who have faith perhaps? What is your noble purpose man????

If we can start at a point of agreement, a small one, then we can continue the discussion.

Do you agree that the New Testament was written after the old testament?

If so, then do you agree that it is altogether possible that the authors of the New Testament had access to or had read the old Jewish scriptures?

If not, why not?

If so, then would you agree that it is possible that they could have read the foretelling of events and wrote a fictional story to give the impression that these prophecies did come true?

If this is possible and if this is true, then what do you think may have been the motive for such an undertaking?

That would be motive, agenda, opportunity etc.

JB

Sun 08/24/08 05:06 PM
Abracadabra

If the whole thing is futile according to you....Then what is it you are searching here for. I want to assume you have a higher purpose, an uplifting decent cause....state it....

Exactly, not only is it unproven, but there are a myriad of reasons to believe that it can't be the word of God.

It's far too self-contradictory to be the word of any supreme being. It flies in the face of the attributes that it claims God is supposed to have.


And to be perfecly honest about it, it just play far too ignorant and stupid to be the words of any all-wise God. An all-wise God could not possibly be that stupid and ignorant.

As far as I'm concerned that's all the proof that is necessary to show why it can't be true. So as far as I'm concerned the Bible has already proven itself to be untrue. It not even a question in my mind.

I speak out against the proselytizing of this religion because he spread, hatred against non-believers. To suggest (and teach) people that non-believer are somehow turning away from God and are rejecting God, or choosing to be on a "side" that is agains God, is to preach brotherly hate based on religious prejudice.

I don't hate Christians, and I don't think they are choosing to side with evil. I just think they are preaching religious bigotry and hatred out of pure ignorance.

How can you support something that is completely unproven (even unwarranted in any way), and then turn around and ask someone else for proof of their beliefs? Especially if they aren't claiming that you are rejecting God if you don't also belief the way they do?

That's the kicker Jessee!

Christians are accusing non-believers of Christiainty to be rejecting God!

They are making accusations against people who don't believe what they believe and they try to preach and covert others to believe like them.

That's what makes Christianity so hateful against all other faiths and belief systems. It's denied their validity.

If you want to believe that Jesus died to pay for your sins, by my guest. But don't claim that I'm rejecting his offer, because that's hogwash. Even the book you claim to be preaching from won't support that lie! That's against the teachings of Jesus Christ himself.

He never taught anyone to go around condemning others in his name!

People who do that are anti-Christs.

Jessee I know you think you might be "onto something" by throwing all these questions on people like "why are you here and why do you debate." Ooooo scary. Has it ever occurred to you that people might just like to argue online, anonymously with complete strangers? This is also a dating site keep in mind. I hate to break it to you but it might be far less consequential than you imagine.

Jeannie bean

Psalm 22 for the third time.....but you wont read it.

Jesus qouted it then fulfilled it...My God My God why hast thou foresaken me? It says they have pierced my hands and my feet, long before roman crucifiction.

He read it and fulfilled it. But He could not have had the romans gamble for his vesture, which they did. And psalm 22 says that they would.

He could not have made the mob say SAVE YOURSELF mockingly. Psalm 22 says that they would.

It even says He would rise from the dead and live forever.

Krisma

Theres your error.

It might be MORE consequential than you think!!!!!!!!!!
There I think we differ.

I bring up Abracadabras motive to find where his heart is in all this discussion. It is pertinant to the debate. I need to know where he is coming from by the thrust of his arguments.

Here is the ending of The Holy Wars, John Bunyan.

Mansoul can be any number of personalities behind the masks.


'My Mansoul, I have ofttimes delivered thee from the designs, plots, attempts, and conspiracies of Diabolus; and for all this I ask thee nothing, but that thou render not to me evil for my good; but that thou bear in mind my love, and the continuation of my kindness to my beloved Mansoul, so as to provoke thee to walk in thy measure according to the benefit bestowed on thee. Of old, the sacrifices were bound with coords to the horns of the altar. Consider what is said to thee, O my blessed Mansoul.

'O my Mansoul, I have lived, I have died, I live, and will die no more for thee. I live, that thou mayest not die. Because I live, thou shalt live also. I reconciled thee to my Father by the blood of my cross; and being reconciled, thou shalt live through me. I will pray for thee; I will fight for thee; I will yet do thee good.

'Nothing can hurt thee but sin; nothing can grieve me but sin; nothing can make thee base before thy foes but sin: take heed of sin, my Mansoul.

'And dost thou know why I at first, and do still, suffer Diabolonians to dwell in thy walls, O Mansoul? It is to keep thee wakening, to try thy love, to make thee watchful, and to cause thee yet to prize my noble captains, their soldiers, and my mercy.

'It is also, that yet thou mayest be made to remember what a deplorable condition thou once wast in. I mean when, not some, but all did dwell, not in thy walls, but in thy castle, and in thy stronghold, O Mansoul.

'O my Mansoul, should I slay all them within, many there be without, that would bring thee into bondage; for were all these within cut off, those without would find thee sleeping; and then, as in a moment, they would swallow up my Mansoul. I therefore left them in thee, not to do thee hurt (the which they yet will, if thou hearken to them, and serve them,) but to do thee good, the which they must, if thou watch and fight against them. Know, therefore, that whatever they shall tempt thee to, my design is, that they should drive thee, not further off, but nearer to my father, to learn thee war, to make petitioning desirable to thee, and to make thee little in thine own eyes. Hearken diligently to this, my Mansoul.

'Show me, then, thy love, my Mansoul, and let not those that are within thy walls, take thy affections off from him that hath redeemed thy soul. Yea, let the sight of a Diabolonian heighten thy love to me. I came once, and twice, and thrice, to save thee from the poison of those arrows that would have wrought thy death: stand for me, thy Friend, my Mansoul, against the Diabolonians, and I will stand for thee before my Father, and all his court. Love me against temptation, and I will love thee notwithstanding thine infirmities.

'O my Mansoul, remember what my captains, my soldiers, and mine engines have done for thee. They have fought for thee, they have suffered by thee, they have borne much at thy hands to do thee good, O Mansoul. Hadst thou not had them to help thee, Diabolus had certainly made a hand of thee. Nourish them, therefore, my Mansoul. When thou dost well, they will be well; when thou dost ill, they will be ill, and sick, and weak. Make not my captains sick, O Mansoul; for if they be sick, thou canst not be well; if they be weak, thou canst not be strong; if they be faint, thou canst not be stout and valiant for thy King, O Mansoul. Nor must thou think always to live by sense: thou must live upon my word. Thou must believe, O my Mansoul, when I am from thee, that yet I love thee, and bear thee upon mine heart for ever.

'Remember, therefore, O my Mansoul, that thou art beloved of me: as I have, therefore, taught thee to watch, to fight, to pray, and to make war against my foes; so now I command thee to believe that my love is constant to thee. O my Mansoul, how have I set my heart, my love upon thee! Watch. Behold, I lay none other burden upon thee, than what thou hast already. Hold fast, till I come.'

THE END.


The Holy War - Part 19 | Index | No More


http://bible.christiansunite.com/bun/holywar22.shtml
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I have read it several times over and I don't see too many similarities between it and the story of the crucification except the "Why has thou forsaken me?" verbiage which could have easily been transferred (plagiarized) from the old scripture to the New Testament.

I would have to study it a little more to make sense out of it. I still don't see it as any kind of proof of prophecy.

I would be willing to bet men pierced people's hands and feet as a torture tactic a lot back then. I didn't see any indication that they had him nailed on a pole or cross.

I read the KJV version.

Now tell me why this passage convinced you of a fulfilled prophecy?

JB