I can't think of another text that spreds so much hatred and bigotry. I'm not surprised that it has been banned from so many places.

Also the number of copies of the book doesn't mean a thing. All that shows is that proselytizers are relentless.

What other book in the world spreads so much hatred toward other religions? What other book in the world proclaims that it will take over the world and brainwashes its readers into believing that it's the word of our creator thus inducting them into becoming its loyal servants?

Look at yourself. You're one of them!

Have you ever met God in person?

If you say you have, I hope you'll forgive me if I suggest that you're delusional. If you confess that you haven't then all you are confessing to is that you have become a slave to a book.

The book spreads hatred and bigotry. If I believed in Satan I'd be thoroughly convinced that he was the one who wrote it. What kind of a God woul do the nasty hateful things that are described in the Bible anyway? Clearly it's an ungodly book.

It's popularity it meaningless. Besides, like I say, citing that more copies have been distributed than other book is it truly meaningless. It's been distributed like propaganda materials. Churches are the ones who buy mass amounts of the books and then pass them out to the public. It's not like individuals were seeking out the book on their own.

In fact, probably 99.9% of the bibles in the world are laying around on shelve collecting dust because the people they were given to didn't even want them in the first palce.

It's a false illusion to think that the number of copies of the Bible that were shoved onto people somehow represents its 'popularity'. It's just a result of the relentess ignorant disrespectful proselytizing of the religion onto people who aren't even interested in hearing about it.

That still doesn't answer the question of whether he creates from nothing, or makes thing of himself.

It truly sounds weird referring to God as a "Him" if you stop and think about it. It suggests that God is very much human-like. The God of Abraham truly is just another concept like Zeus all over again. It's not even a new idea.

Have I "met God in person"? No - but I have certaily seen Him in others that I have met - in the things that they do, and the words that they say. I've also seen the absence of Him in others.

You - are a perfect example of this. You point the finger at others claiming they are judgemental and bigotted. All the while - not realizing you are doing so yourself? If you can't see that Abra... such a shame. Read Wouldee's posts Abra - you do little but continue to confuse those who are already confused, and make those of us who see your words - your obvious hatred of whatever it is in scripture that makes you mad at God - for what they are.

Unable to comprehend.

I would think after all of your attempts to come up with something legitimate to examine that is worthy of question in the scripture - given your background of mathematics and logical reasoning - which is only acceptable by what you say about yourself, not by how you demonstrate it in your posts - that you would have at least introduced something challenging. Instead - you let Tribo, Krimsa, Smiless, Jeannie, etc do the work - then get out your pomp pomps and spew your rhetoric.

It is a shame. I'd rather see you put all of your education to some use here - and come up with a reasonable premise to support that soap box you call a thrown. At least give us something to work with. But - then again, perhaps I'm giving you too much credit. We'll have to see how that goes.

spidey, it is not that i didn't like your answer, but what it says though to me is not clear as to if there was just god and "nothing else" or if there was matter of any kind around him before he started to create? what john states is that all things? came into being but it does not state there was nothing in the universe to begin with, only that nothing he created has come into being. I understand you taking that to mean nothing existed, but i do not. to me that only means john is talking of gods creation of what he states he created, hes saying [to me] god and god alone created everything he created and nothing[no other god] had apart in doing so, it was strictly his doing, no one else's.

I'm asking on the other hand was there any matter/substance.sub-quark material that existed along with god from eternity, or was god it? nothing else what so ever? absolute blankness,nothingness, or what ever else you may describe it as?? Was god absolutely and infinitely the "only" thing that existed at one time??

thnx

What John is saying is that everything which exists was created by God. That verse leaves no wiggle room. This is the Biblical answer. There is no way around it. As for what you believe, you can believe whatever you choose to believe. But the answer in the Bible is that God created everything that exists.

No, the original question was this:



John 1:3 says that everything which exists was created by God.

But that still doesn't answer the question Spider.

It doesn't suggest whether there was raw material to work with or not.

Moreover, if you believe that God exists, then you must also believe that God created himself since he supposedly created everything that 'exists'.

Looks like we're right back at square one again.

If there can be one such supreme being, then why not infinitely many? The idea that there is just one God that exists for no apparent reason is just as sensless as to assume that the unviverse popped into existence from nowhere for no apparent reason.

Would God know its true nature?

If not, then God would be in the same boat we're in.

If God does not know how it came to be then it's no better off than we are. It would have it's own soul-searching to do.

It God a child of other Gods?

If God is the only God around, why is that?

If God can exist then why can't other God's exist?

The very notion of God is a manmade concept to pretend that there can be an answer. A single finite answer.

That's what mankind longs for. A single finite answer so there are no unanswered questions. Everything is known.

So he creates an idea of an all-knowing God who knows the answer to every imaginable question.

The problem is that in the biblical story of God there are no profound mysteries unveiled. There is nothing in the Bible at all that couldn't have been put there by men.

Sure, I know that some people try to stretch things and claim that there is knowledge in the Bible that could not have been known by ancient men, but those supposed examples are truly a stretch of very vague notions.

There is nothing in the Bible that appears to be from any supernatural being. If a supernatural being wanted to convey a message to mankind it would have been smarter than what the Bible displays. By the way, this isn't just my opinion, this was held quite passionately by Carl Sagan. A very intelligent man indeed. A man who was interested in the possiblity of contacting extraterrestrial life forms. He quickly saw that the bible does not represent even intelligent life, much less the words of an all-wise supreme being.

Yes, it does. John 1:3 clearly states that all things which exist were created by God. I'm not going to argue with you and none of this tit-for-tat stuff. John 1:3 clearly and unequivocally states that God created everything which exists. This is my last post on this, because I feel that the subject is very shallow...it's easily answered with one verse. I don't see a need for debate and I don't believe any other interpretations of John 1:3 are valid.

besides John 1:3 a lot of other sources in the bible can be found here:

http://www.gospelway.com/god/evidences-creation.php

so i'm to take that as - at some point only god existed and "absolutely nothing else" correct?

According to the Bible? Yes. But your beliefs may vary.

Great link! Thanks for posting it Kojack.

that sounds like a car mileage disclaimer on a TV commercial -your mileage may very - hahaha

tnx S.

your most welcome spider

Clearly you don't see the point. It's not a matter of interpretation. It's the simple fact that John 1:3 doesn't even mention a process at all.

To say that God created everything does not say what process he used to accomplish these things.

It doesn't even address the question. There's nothing left to interpret.

In fact, if you take it at face value it suggest that the Pantheistic view God is correct. That everything is a direct manifestation of God. If God created everything, and didn't use external raw materials, then every is God.

Nothing could be simpler. Pantheism all the way.

You are a broken record. Whatever the Bible unquestionably states, you find a way to twist it into Pantheism.

God didn't create the universe out of himself. According to Jesus, God is invisible. If God is invisible, then God could not be the universe.

Psalm 33:6-9


Here we see that God commanded the universe to exist and they came into existence. Look at John 1:3, it doesn't imply that God created the universe out of himself. God simply created everything which exists.

You are free to believe as you will and I won't judge you for that. But if you believe that the Bible, in any way, supports the Pantheistic view of God, you are mistaken.

if jesus is god then god is not invisible?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:1-2).

The words translated "without form, and void" literally mean "confusion and emptiness," as they are so translated in Isaiah 34:11. But "without form" is a good translation of the term in this usage. Notice that God also called it "waters" at the end of verse two.

Verse 1 tells us that God, being the initial cause, created (brought into being that which did not exist previously) three things: time (the beginning), heavens (space), and the earth (matter). These three things was in complete chaos (total entropy) and could serve no purpose (empty). The point about darkness is that energy had not be imposed on the shapeless matter when it was first created, but the Spirit of God was ready to change that.

"Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:3-5).

God then endowed energy into His creation by the power of His Word. Matter was energized and gave forth light. God separated the energized matter from the dark matter and that constituted the first day.

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2006/01-19a.htm

That is so strange, dear soul mate of mine. I have the opposite dilemma.

The idea of the existence of nothing boggles my mind. I have tried to imagine it and I cannot. Nothing cannot exist because it contradicts itself. If it does "exist" then it has "existence" hence forth it is NOT NOTHING.

So you dear Abra, represent "anti-matter" and I represent "matter."

We had better not ever meet, for surely the universe will explode.

JB

Perhaps you don't consider yourself passing judgement - but your comments on the particular aspects that you percieve "christians" are responsible for in terms of the woes of the world, the "hate" you percieve, the delusions, and such - is just a generic passing of judgement painted with a broad paint brush. You make broad and general claims as to what you percieve christians to be - without discernments. In addition to this - you do so deceptively. You do not differenciate the acts of the Crusades with the missionaries of today. Do you really think those of us who are believers are preparing another Crusade? (Obviously I don't need you to respond to this) I don't see this much different than anticipating the behavior of someone by the color of their skin. I think if you have issues with certain groups who you have issues with in terms of how they are intrpreting scripture as an end to their own means - then be a little more specific - and it will not seem as though you are passing judgement on anyone who does not see the issues of scripture as you do. More often than not - I agree with you on the cultic practices of the Fundimentalist Pseudo-Christian cults - even with some of the interpretations of mainstream Catholicism. But it is the "broad brush claims" that leave the impression that judgement is being passed. In that respect - I do not see you representing the thought of the majrity of Christians - or the "Designer Christians" as you say. Which - in the final analysis, are the ONLY true Christians.



I'm sorry Abra - but I do not see what you see. God is not in everyone. I believe God abandons the Jeffery Dahmers, Richard Ramerez, and Hitlers of this world, and gives them over to the reprobate lusts and desires of their own minds.
You may see God in these people - but to me, that God does not exist. I do not see what happens in this world due to the actions of Christians, Jews or Islamics anywhere near comparitable. Do you really think these broad generalizations put them on equal ground? That's nonsense. The radical factions within these religions are no more representative of the whole of them - than Satanists are representative of non-believers.
Were I to come in here and call you a Satanist because you don't believe in the God of scripture would have everyone on the thread coming down on me as a biggoted judgemental Fundie. Even Wouldee. Were someone else to do that to you - I'd chime in as well.

Just put htat broad brush away, and the accusations of your being judgemental will eventually fade away.