Yes, well since you are not willing to accept that Neanderthal man first lived on the Earth about 200,000 years ago then the only position I can assume that you are taking is he must ONLY be 6000 years at the oldest and perhaps even created around the same time as Adam and Eve. Correct me if I'm wrong but when else would god had made him if we are indeed forced to work within the confines of the biblical time line.

Well it is your assertion that Adam and Eve are representative of Homo sapien sapien or modern day man because that is what you have concluded on another post. If you wish to change that position now, it is fine but please explain what genus Adam and Eve are if not Homo Sapien. I always assumed that the bible's position was that god made humans fully formed and as we appear today. In that case, Neanderthal still poses a problem because he is not Homo Sapien. So I ask, why did god make him exactly and when? What about Cro Magnon man?45,000 to 10,000 years ago in the Upper Paleolithic. He is even later on the time line. How would you explain the changes that are occurring between the skulls of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon? Cro Magnon has little to no brow ridge and he has the characteristically high forehead like homo sapien. Cro-Magnon man is also slender in build and stands upright. He does not have the exaggerated, flaring ribcage either, nor the wide pelvis. Neanderthal females would have needed that pelvis in order to give birth to those infants. As noted Homo sapien females would have had a hard time in labor attempting to give birth to these babies with such massive heads This is a plausible explanation for the eventual extinction of Neanderthal. In following in line with adaptation and the ability to pass one's genetic profile onto successive generations.. We are getting closer aren't we? Why are these changes happening gradually if Neanderthal died in a big flood? We can stick with Neanderthal until we can identify his genus and where he came from. The questions naturally arise of not only what are Adam and Eve, but what is Neanderthal and what are these other hominids exacttly? Why are we seeing a slow and gradual change in the physiology?

Okay if we accept that the flood actually did occur which I don't doubt that it may have but in a localized region, how would that ensure the immediate death of ALL Neanderthal? Besides, in order for Neanderthal to "adapt" and become physiologically akin to homo sapien wouldn't he require the time since creation nearly 6000 years ago to become homo sapien? Otherwise, yes okay we could go with your theory that the flood was worldwide and killed Neanderthal in the course of a singular cataclysmic event but then that still leaves you with not having an explanation of what he is? Even if you do not believe he is anything other than homo sapien, we understand from his skeletal structure that he is substantially different and by all accounts had a different mode of existence than these other 6000 year old humans. So why would god have created something totally different and not quite the same as homo sapien (Adam and Eve) It would appear that you are working VERY hard to smash square pegs into round holes in order to accommodate this annoying hominid specimen. Im only requiring you to look at the easiest and most logical explanation first. Actually that's another question for you since you mentioned fossil remains. Shouldn't all of Neanderthals excavated encampments and tools and skulls and bones and pottery and children and burial grounds all be located somewhere in the Middle East or the biblical Cradle of Civilization? Some sites were in Iran and Iraq but others have been found in Europe and Asia because it believed that he migrated and was able to break off into several bands.

There is no reason to believe that these early humans lived to be 900 years of age and for the hard life of Neanderthal, seeing 40 might have been considered rare. However I promised you I would TAKE everything into account. So far that Neanderthal could only be about 6000 years old, that he could have possibly perished in a flood, and whatever biblical parameters and restrictions you would like to enforce on this early descendant of man. The problem is he isn't going away and there is no easy way to explain what he is.

Okay so you are flip flopping here in your explanations. First you are attempting to explain the extinction of Neanderthal in terms of the great flood of Noah. So that would imply that Neanderthal was a descendant of Adam and Eve and existed prior to the flood correct? But then you must have lost track of that assertion because next you try to insert that the only reason we see this significant differential in terms of body structure is due to the atmospheric and climate changes that occurred POST flood. So that would mean you are now trying to say that Neanderthal was actually descended of Noah and his family and the story in the bible from that point on as it relates to repopulating the earth. Also, if we accept your theory that Neanderthal actually came into existence as being descendants of Noah's lineage and not Adam and Eve, and the normal human life span was decreasing by that time, that would give him even less time to adapt correct and become more homo-sapien like in appearance? Morning Song was at least giving him 900 years. You are essentially saying that it just depended on the topography and where those Neanderthal babies were born and that would determine their sloping brow ridge or longer arms or flared rib cages, or elongated cranium. Let me explain that "adaptation" is subject to reproduction and passing one's genetic profile onto that of offspring. It does not occur during the course of one life time, be that life time, 40 years, 80 or 900 years.

I understand you were sleepy so just get to it on another post.

OH NO THERE'S NOT HAND CLAPPING EMOTICON.... ARGHHH..


HERE ARE ALL THE BEST ONES I COULD FIND.







and finally:



and a big "BRAVO"

Good job hanging in there Krimsa. Excellently thought out, condsiderate of previous posts and very well put together.

I have to say, my creativity is stumped, I will be impressed to hear any creative responces that follow your last post.

Oh one other thing. Can you tell me which one of Noah's relatives would have passed on these anatomical traits to his subsequent generations?


* Cranial
o Suprainiac fossa, a groove above the inion
o Occipital bun, a protuberance of the occipital bone which looks like a hair knot
o Projecting mid-face
o Low, flat, elongated skull
o A flat basicranium
o Supraorbital torus, a prominent, trabecular (spongy) brow ridge
o 1200-1750 cm³ skull capacity (10% greater than modern human average)
o Lack of a protruding chin (mental protuberance; although later specimens possess a slight protuberance)
o Crest on the mastoid process behind the ear opening
o No groove on canine teeth
o A retromolar space posterior to the third molar
o Bony projections on the sides of the nasal opening
o Distinctive shape of the bony labyrinth in the ear
o Larger mental foramen in mandible for facial blood supply
o Broad, projecting nose
* Sub-cranial
o Considerably more robust
o Large round finger tips
o Barrel-shaped rib cage
o Large kneecaps
o Long collar bones
o Short, bowed shoulder blades
o Thick, bowed shaft of the thigh bones
o Short shinbones and calf bones
o Long, gracile pelvic pubis (superior pubic ramus)
o Bowed Femur

Krimsa;

I edited out the beginning of this cause the posts are getting huge. I'll take it from here.



I think that it best to recap here, since it appears that this discussion is expanding with each post.

I think that we can establish as fact - that we have these fossel remains which by consenses - we will call "Neanderthal". Determining the age of "Nea" is presumptuous - as we have no means of travelling back in time to substanciate our claims. The same would be said of "cause". I will let you speak of your pesumptions on cause for yourself - but here are mine.

I contend that man was created once. First Adam, and Eve from his rib. Whether this was 6,000 years ago, or 600,000 years would not change this.
I tend to go with 6,000 (or so), prefering for the time being to shade towards literal interpretation of the numbers in scripture - but I'm not beyond entertaining other theories on this. I'm just not up to spead on the Old World creationist axioms. Anyway - this would demonstrate that the idea of God creating Neanderthol, and A&E as homosapien, as two different events a contradiction for me. I have never stated, or felt otherwise. Therefore - Neanderthol - by logic - would be a descendant of Adam & Eve, and since there is only one event of creation - by extension, allowing for your presumption that Neanderthol came first - this would mean A&E were Neanderthols, and not Homosapien. The only other option that would be acceptable within the confinds of my stated presumption, is that there is no difference between Neanderthol and Homosapien, beyond drawing an analogy of the difference between the physique of a caucasion and an oriental.



As previously stated - my presumptions are that Neanderthol are descendant from A&E as priori. So the assertion that A&E is homosapien only serves the purpose of not recognizing Neanderthol as either preceeding H.S. or that there is no definitve distinction between the two, as is presumed in evolution. Again, I tend to find the differences in physicality more in line with the differences we find today within the races - than I do for the need to have adapted from one Eon/Age to the next.

The distinction of what happened due to the flood, is that 3 facts are known.
1) the Majority of the decendants of A&E did not survive the flood - with the exception of 8 people.
2) That the expected life span of man decreased steadily, and rapidly. Fom an average of 900 pre-flood - to 200 up until Abraham, and to 80 Up until David and desreased until the middle ages, only increasing in the modern age with the advent of medical procedures and drugs discovered to prolong life and fight disease.
3) That up until the time of Babel - only one language was spoken on earth, and rather than disperse throughout the land and increase, man congregated. Causing language to be confused, and forced dispersement, and abandonment of building the tower of Babel.

My presumption here is that - despite what labels we assign to the fossels - Cro magnon, Homo-sapien, whatever... The radical change in life-span, eventual change of atmospheric environment, and forced dispersion would account for the changing and adapting of the physicality of man, which is often sighted for the differences in physiques between Caucasion, Oriental, Arab, and Negro populations. So it would be expected that we find variants in the fossel records - for the ame reasons we see them in man today. However - I don't presume to have an adequate explination for this - beyond the premises of modern day science.



Here again - we have a difference in the presumption of time. What would be evidenced from the flood is that whatever variance occured from the creation of A&E till Noah and the other 7 boarded the arc, would have perished in the flood. So, by natural reasoning, Noah and his decendants would now be what would be considered Homo-sapien if the presumption of keeping the labels distinct is to be held to. As to the dispersement of fossels - this would have been a natural occurance due to the dispersement at Babel. It is not clear though, as to how far the ancients (pre-flood) dispersed, as the account of Genesis narrows it's focus to that of Noah, and the generations through to Abraham. All we have of an account in Genesis is that evil had spread throughout the land, and that man had essentially become wicked. So no clear distinction outside of subjective assumptions can be determined concerning where the fossels were located.



Well - in order to reject the presumptions of their being decendants of A&E, it does not suffice to merely come up with another presumption, that is not sufficent to deny the axioms - what is needed to reject a presumption is to show cause why the presumption is an impossibility due to the claims of the presumption, as opposed to the validity of assumed presumptions that oppose it. Generally though - it can often be demonstrated that only one of the opposing presumptions has the ability to be viable, however assurtion of viability remains subjective at best.



No. Neanderthol would not be a decendant of Noah in our scenario. This would be contradictory to what I have been stating. Either there was previous misunderstanding of perspective on your part, or a typing error on mine. (Not unlikely since I have a tendency to word my mix up all the time, and obviously, I can't spell - nor type.)
The difference in genetic anomolies could happen within one or two generations depending on the genome mapping of the parents and cross breeding.
Of course the difficulty here is the lack of sheer numbers of the control group for DNA testing, due to the limitation of fossel records.
There's no way to determine if the information of any genome tested is one that represents all of the potential information, or if there has been information lost within the genomes of the fossels to determine where that fossel falls into the generational time-line. Here, any explination is only going to be subjective due to a serious lack of onmncience on either of our parts. Therefore, it remains difficult to assess the factual evidence and the DNA it provides with any certainty - due to what is missing to assure an adequeste control group.

As a side note - It is encouraging to note though, that the world view on the necessity of the ongoing excavation of the middle east and beyond has eased tremendously in just the last half century. But - it will take vast numbers of people, and unlimited co-operation of what remains as hostile countries to continue the research. I look forward to additional findings to expand the control groups of these presumptions, so that it does not remain so subjective, for it limits any viable discussion because of it.

lj

Well If that is contradictory to what you are stating then by all means try to formulate some kind of an opinion if you would like. The questions that have been posed to you thus far are:

What genus would Neanderthal fall into? I only assumed that you had asserted that he was homo sapien because Adam and Eve are homo sapien and Noah and his lineage are homo sapien.

When would Neanderthal have existed on earth?The paleontologists have a theory based on credible research that would give him a range of 200,000 years and as recently as 30,000 years. I would agree with this premise. I am assuming that you disagree with it in some respect. If you do, please explain when Neanderthal man came into existence and for how long did he live. We are both just hypothesizing here so I dont see the harm. Also, of what direct line is he descended since now you are claiming that it was not Adam and Eve, nor Noah and his family.


Your insistence that the difference in the physical traits between homo sapien and Neanderthal are nothing more than genetic anomalies does not explain why an entire group of people would share these characteristics and pass them from generation to generation. (Please see the list of physiological differences between Neanderthal and homo sapien that was posted). Also, how would you explain these same differences in physiology manifesting themselves in specimens found in various locations through out the world?

There is actually a fair amount of recovered Neanderthal fossil specimens available, including, as you have already been introduced to, children of varying ages who are already showing the characteristic of the adult Neanderthal. A humorous bone sample was taken. It was determined that the amino acid levels were at 20% to 73% of those in modern bone, evidencing DNA survival.

Also how would you explain the difference between Neanderthal and Cro magnon man as we inch closer towards homo sapien. Is he also yet another anomalie?

I am not claiming any "omniscience" on my part here. Were you in some respect? I am uncomfortable with those terms as it smacks of some kind of god like influence. I am simply a human here who is presenting these various issues for your assessment with strong supportive evidence on my side. I am asking that you rebut in some fashion or formulate an argument that would successfully diffuse its credibility as it has been presented thus far.

dinosaurs were used in The Flintstones Movies!! and dinosaurs RULE!!!

Incidentally, I feel like its a bad idea to be re-introducing dinosaurs into a modern environment and setting. I agree with the line from "Jurassic Park"

"They had their shot and nature selected them for extinction for a reason."

If someone had paid closer attention to that guy, then far fewer humans would have been consumed over the course of that film. Just my two cents.

Krimsa;

In light of what I stated in my last post, and the presumptions that I tend to agree with, I have to admit that I'm not really "up to speed" to respond adequately to the specificity of some of the questions you are asking. Remember now - I't been well over 35 years since I spent any time learning this, and my concentration was Math and theaer - not science. DNA wasn't even on the radar screen back in those days, and the thought of going to a store and bringing home a movie to watch on the television set - was an idea out of the Twilight Zone. When I was learning about this - te 8 track hadn't been invented yet. So - you'll have to forgive me if I admit that I can do no more than respond off the top of my head on these matters, because I'm just not "up to speed" as they say.

However - that is not to say that I don't find our discussion enlightening, and certainly interesting. I'm just afraid that I'm severely limited in my recall to even remember what Cro magnon man was. I would be more than willing to catch up on some of this stuff if you sould recommend some web-sights that will give me a quick overview of what we are discussing, and their positioning in the evolutionary time line (as obviously - there are no biblical references for these terms) and I would be better equipped to correspond on the terms with my presumptions from the biblical texts. Right now - I've pretty much stated all that I know based on my rememberances of Neanderthol and Homosapiens.

I would say though, as to something you stated in the first paragraph here - that the term "genus" is not one that would enter into my mode of thinking, as my perspective on Neanderthol and Homosapien is that of generiational, and not genus. I'm not sure how my definition or understanding would fall into a genus classification. To my understanding - The corresondence between Neanderthol and Homosapien, and it would follow for any of the genus - is relational. Depending upon the acceptable premises we establish, I would have one or the other as a descendant of the preceeding. That is what I have established in my presumption. Is this going to take us along parallel lines of missunderstanding? Do you follow my point here?

As to the statement of omniscience - it was just one of clear obviousness. Neither one of us, or anyone for that matter, can go back in time to witness the events that occured to bring about these radical differences in physiological makeup of the differnet fossels that have been discovered. It is for this reason, that whatever we might chose to believe is always going to be from the standpoint of a world view, no matter how logical the presumptions might appear. All we have before us is the fossels themselves - the why or when is always going to remain subjective.
But I agree with you - investigating the possibilities certainly can't hurt, and no shortage of knowledge can be aquired.

Did'nt a big rock fall on them.........I'M BACK SUGAR!

Alright fair enough. You just want to do a search for Cro-Magnon. I cant recommend any good web sites but Im sure there are many. Go to the American Museum of Natural History. Im actually referencing some of my old text books here. So much for recent information. As far as the actual designations, you can use this:

Neaderthal- Pleistocene species of the Homo genus (Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) which inhabited Europe and parts of western and central Asia. The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 500-350 thousand years ago. By 130,000 years ago, complete Neanderthal characteristics had appeared, and disappeared from Asia by 50,000 years ago and Europe by 30,000 years ago.


Cro-Magnon & "Moderns"-About 25,000 BCE until around 10,000 BCE. Cro-Magnon is one of the main types of Homo sapiens of the European Upper Paleolithic. It is named after the cave of Crô-Magnon in southwest France, where the first specimen was found.

"Neaderthal Code" premiers Sunday on cable television. They said that "we previously thought they died out, but that they may still exist in our DNA in humans today.

Should be interesting. On my t.v. it is channel 49 comcast cable.

Damn!!! What are you doing – writing a theses?

Do you remember what network it's on - I don't have cable.

Atleast we can all agree, dinosaurs are freaking awesome =D

I think dinosaurs are pretty cool. Especially because there was so many different types. I know kids love studying them in school. Back when I was in science class it kind of sparked my interest in everything else related. I like the whole connection between Velosa Raptors and birds of prey. You can actually see it in their bodies and movements. There are some parallels that are apparent even today.

I never grew out of liking them lol

Me neither. I once had an ex that got me a box of assorted soaps that were all different species of dinosaurs. They were for little kids but in a cool box and really intricate molds. Hahah