abra,

fancying your delusional ignorance of sarcasm is alarming.

That you actually are blind to my humor is doubtful.

That you are cunningly deceitful in your own humorous way is inescapably known to me, my distant friend.

let's see if your machination works and gives the inept ones the excuse they need to excuse yet another call to distinguish themselves in embracing truth and renouncing conjecture and speculation parading as truth.

We shall start with you.

Please, feel free to unshackle your arrogance and deceit, abra.

Truthfully employ your talents in simplicity for once.

Meanwhile, since you love this brand of confusion and would defend it incessantly and parade it as fact, let me remind you that deflecting this is transference and that such a deficit can be healed if you'd like.

I can show you how to heal that for yourself.

Write me for the prescription.

It is elsewhere in these threads somewhere, but you rarely read what is there anyway in your compromised metal state.

you may miss it.

But I will not underestimate your tenacity.

that would be disrespectful.

As I mentioned to you before Wouldnee, I can not tell when you are trying to make a point or a joke.

Maybe there just were no historians.

Even in Biblical times very few people could actually read and write.

The history is in the fossil evidence.

Also, you might have found some pretty interesting recorded history you have never heard about in the library of Alexandria if someone had not destroyed it.

But if you go to (Monroe) level 27 there is a library there that has the complete history of the world.

Of course you have to learn Out of Body Projection in order to go there. Level 27 is one level above Heaven according to Robert Monroe, soul traveler.

JB

you don't get it, do you, Krimsa?

You really are missing the point.

I apologize.

Let me make it simple.

If evolution is true, then jesus blood is not significant. Since the blood is the extant of the metaphort of the life and the life in Christ is God himself, and since this whole infantile establishment of sacrificing anything and the shedding of blood has anything to do with explaining the inexplicable on a level incomprehensible at its finest, then the blood is pertinent to the premise of evolution's efficacy.

Meaning, if Jesus is just evolved from goo then he is meat with a brain and an idea and played his idea out on the unsuspecting in his community.


it's that simple.

evolution is an exercise in woerking backwards from that premise.

It's that simple.

There is no other motive logical enough to impart the outcome of the pursuit from the outset.

Deconstructing God, is the hope and aspiration of the proponents of evolution.

study every 'if' in every document of that hypothetical charade, as I have and do, and you will find that there are escape clauses in every deduction made and in ever conclusion reached and in every consensus assumed, as long as the 'ifs' are given merit, then the whole charade is applauded as possible.

It is not about the dna, at all.

who cares? that is another foolish distraction meaning nothing.

evolution conjecture is flawed, faulty, incomplete, hypothetical only, and assumptions given to it.

It is not fact, truth, or complete.

It is a dead end.

Darwin died, evolution died, and God is alive.

Seek him.

period.

Yes it is that simple. So wake up to the simplicity of that.

Give up the ghost Wouldee.

Jesus is not God.

JB

P.S. Hey! I discovered my agenda! Thanks Wouldee.

COOL, JEANIE.

NOW GET TO WORK AND PROVE EVOLUTION
COLD HARD FACTS
AND CITE YOUR SOURCES.
THE WORLD HAS BEEN WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO DO IT.
oops, caplock, sorry.

remember now, not just an endless stream of unsubstantiate hyperbole and rhetoric. just good clean science by the most credible and accomplished in the field only.

i will be waiting.

and sources, jeannie, don't forget to give sources for the proof that we are goo.

two simple things will do for me.

the leap between the gaps between man and whatever else that is they have found, and the bird's wing.

oh, by the way, if in your pursuit of this evidence please forward anything you find that says such evidence is not forthcoming, won't you?

it is only fair to be intellectually honest, isn't it?

Please do not patronize me wouldnee. I have been nothing but polite to you. Please address me with the same degree of courtesy and respect. Thank you.

You did not answer my question. It is quite simple.

What do you understand the skeletal remains of early hominids to represent? The bones that have been exhumed from these various excavations across the planet. You can not get much simpler than that. My 8 year old niece could tell me what she thinks after a visit to the natural history museum. This is all I am asking of you.

We can ignore the DNA for now if you like. I must tell you that we are a little far off from DNA evidence being referred to as "voodoo". That seems to be what you are implying. It also appears that you seem to feel that science has this absolute imperative to "tear down the Christian myth of Creationism." I don’t think that is anything you need to fear or become defensive about. If you suddenly showed me absolute proof of the existence of Adam and Eve or one of the others stories from the bible, I would be forced to believe. It would be in front of my face. Science does not even require that you, or anyone else accept its theories.

In case you have not read my answer to you in another thread, I am not interested in "proving" evolution.

I have no issue with anyones theory of evolution. I believe in a creator. I just don't believe in the Bible or that Jesus is God.

JB

This is the entire basis of your religious belief Wouldee. I fully understand that. It's all about the significance of blood sacrifices.

However, you need to understand that even if this scenario were true, it wouldn't be the way you claim anyway. Physics would be entirely moot. If the blood of Jesus can 'wash away sins', that's entirely a symbolic spiritual thing. Even if it's just a symbol that God himself used. There would be nothing physical about the blood.

You wouldn't need to be physically 'washed' in the blood of Jesus in order to have your sins 'washed' away. Clearly it's just a metaphor. Even if used by God. I mean, even if they whole story is true, it's still just a metaphor being used by God. Therefore you're claim that the blood would not be significant wouldn't even hold up even if they religion is true.

Besides, Jesus was supposedly born of a virgin anyway. His blood wouldn't have anything to do with man's blood anyhow. In fact, if you believe in divine conception there's no reason to believe that Jesus had any of Mary's DNA. If God wanted to plant a fertilized egg in Mary's womb he wouldn't have been restricted to only using her eggs! In fact, the idea that Mary was genetically the mother of Jesus would actually fly in the face of the significance of a divine virgin birth anyway.

So even if the story were true you're arguments concerning the physics of Jesus blood would be moot.



This is nothing short of total paranoia on your part. It has never been the goal of science to prove or disprove any particular religion. They just search for truth and accept whatever answers the universe yields. If they had discovered that the earth was only 6000 years old and that men and dinosaurs had lived side-by-side, they'd accept that observation.

The truth is that this isn't what they've discovered. What the have discovered is that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old and life has been slowly evolving from lower life forms into higher life forms for millions of years. They didn't just make up that story to denounce your religion Wouldee.

That is totally paranoid thinking on your part.

You're basically trying to suggest that scientists from all over the world are in cahoots to disprove Christianity. Which would also simultaneously disprove Judaism and Islam too by the way.

So who are these deceiving scientists? JB's aliens from other worlds?

The real irony Wouldee, is that the vast majority of Scientists actually came from Christian countries like Europe and the USA. If they were in cahoots to pull the wool over anyone's eyes you'd think they'd be trying to prove that Christianity is true, not the other way around.

Your paranoia is totally unfounded. Scientists are your very own bothers who have had their eyes open to the TRUTH. They aren't your enemy.

Krimsa stated:




No more than i believe that beeswax on a 200 yr. old chair is thousands of years old!!

I was stating that the C-dating itself is not reliable when trying to date any organic or inorganic materials as well as any other, it is faulty.

i do believe that science in the field of historic conservation will come up eventually with a means of accurate date setting, since this is there ""only agenda"" - I will be more that happy to look at this when it arrives and has been in use long enough to show it's reliability with known coatings of age we do have in our possession in the museums around the world and can accurately date from historical writings to show a very close date to its original existence. -

are they man?

no. Krimsa.

they are the remains of some other creature.

just as equally mysterious as what exactly the dinosaurs were.

But man is man.

the leap from other bipedal hominids to hom sapiens is a stretch and the gap is greater than the leap made in ruching to judgement.

nothing patronizing in anything I am saying, not intentionally.

I didn't realize that you could not grasp what the "gap" and the "leap" means .

OK?

bye.

The fact that the earth itself is 4.5 billion years old has been confirmed in many ways far beyond the need for carbon dating.

Astrophysics has shown that it would have taken this long for the planet to have 'evolved' into the state it is currently in even if it had turned out to be a lifeless ball of dirt.

Geologists have also shown that all of the geological features of the earth would have taken this long to have come about.

So the age of the earth at 4.5 billion years old is as well-established as it can be. Even if we remove all life forms from the planet and never even heard of carbon copy dating.

As to chimps and other apes i find it interesting that they show no evolutionary evidence of being something other than what they have been found as in the fossil record or the other apes?

wouldn't it seem logical that if apes were evolving as a particular type - chimp, gorilla, orangutan, etc.. That we would find in the fossil records similar but different earlier apes suggesting a continued evolvement? Yet to my knowledge there is no such evidence - do you have any K? or know of any? as to visual hard evidence? A prerunner of the modern ape or chimp. orangutan? - just wondering.

OK JB.

then just say hi, then.

that isn't so hard, is it?

Usually the axe is being ground in these threads to argue incessantly with nothing credible ever coming of it.

Oh, silly me, that's what you are doing too.

well, I don't know how your new found aganda is going to fit into this discussion, but let me give you a little hint.

Don't bring up dragons and aliens.

you won't be taken seriously.

meanwhile, your welcome for tyhe help that at the very least helped you narrow down your search for whatever it is your are seeking to believe, ultimately.

I will venture to say, that no matter what that may be according to your new agenda, I am sure it won't let you down in anyway and return your attentions to that which is your agenda and cause it to be necessarily deconstructed accidentally.

But it always comforting to know that we can change our agendas at any time, JB.

And that seems to be consistent with your style and approach to life, so it fits and suits you too.

Mayb you will change your mind again.

Oh my, what if you become one oif us?

Have you ever considered that?

I have never considered becoming a Christian, no.

I have not really changed my agenda I just realized what it was.

Aliens are defined as non-human intelligent life forms.

If you believe in demons, then you believe in aliens by that definition.

If you believe in Satan, you believe in non-human intelligent life forms.

Of course Feral claims that Satan is not "intelligent."

Then on another post he is heralded as the great liar and the great deceiver. Pretty good press for a non intelligent being.

So you can make fun of my conclusion about "aliens" or not take me seriously if you want, I don't care.

Someone told David Icke the same thing but he opted to tell the truth about the aliens anyway. He has a large following.

Thanks for the advice anyway, but I intend to explore deeply all possibilities. I don't close the door on information just because it does not please me.

In fact, I wish someone could prove to me that the alien thing is a huge hoax by the government in mind control. But that would be a worse and more horrific scene. I don't know if I would like it any better, but if it is true, then it is true. I just evaluate information and make temporary conclusions until a better one presents itself.

JB

The OP is not accurate to the scientific evidence of man before 4000 years ago anyway.

wiki answers has this:

From the lay studies I have conducted (readings), the earliest sign of civilization were found in the excavating of the village at Konya in Turkey. With an estimated population of 5-8000, scientific dating points to 7500-9000 BC. Interesting also, is the discovery only 100 miles north of Konya (12 miles into the Black Sea) near Sinope (also in Turkey). An underwater small village was discovered in 1999. It is dated 7500-8500 BC (both of these before the great flood).

I persoanlly have faith in extensive findings such as these that are literal establishings and reference points in history. When dealing with isolated "findings" such as "Lucy" bones, the argument gets weaker and weaker til disintigration. The missing link is the same as it always has been....a "tweener" that has never been discovered.

Heres another one:

Science News Share Blog Cite Print Email BookmarkNew Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
ScienceDaily (Nov. 18, 2004) — Radiocarbon tests of carbonized plant remains where artifacts were unearthed last May along the Savannah River in Allendale County by University of South Carolina archaeologist Dr. Albert Goodyear indicate that the sediments containing these artifacts are at least 50,000 years old, meaning that humans inhabited North American long before the last ice age.


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See also:
Fossils & Ruins
Fossils
Ancient Civilizations
Lost Treasures
Early Climate
Cultures
Origin of Life
Reference
The evolution of human intelligence
Stone Age
Homo antecessor
Excavation
The findings are significant because they suggest that humans inhabited North America well before the last ice age more than 20,000 years ago, a potentially explosive revelation in American archaeology.

Goodyear, who has garnered international attention for his discoveries of tools that pre-date what is believed to be humans' arrival in North America, announced the test results, which were done by the University of California at Irvine Laboratory, Wednesday (Nov .17).

"The dates could actually be older," Goodyear says. "Fifty-thousand should be a minimum age since there may be little detectable activity left."

The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of modern man's migration out of the African continent has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that humans could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.

"Topper is the oldest radiocarbon dated site in North America," Goodyear says. "However, other early sites in Brazil and Chile, as well as a site in Oklahoma also suggest that humans were in the Western Hemisphere as early as 30,000 years ago to perhaps 60,000."

In 1998, Goodyear, nationally known for his research on the ice age PaleoIndian cultures dug below the 13,000-year Clovis level at the Topper site and found unusual stone tools up to a meter deeper. The Topper excavation site is on the bank of the Savannah River on property owned by Clariant Corp., a chemical corporation headquartered near Basel, Switzerland. He recovered numerous stone tool artifacts in soils that were later dated by an outside team of geologists to be 16,000 years old.

For five years, Goodyear continued to add artifacts and evidence that a pre-Clovis people existed, slowly eroding the long-held theory by archaeologists that man arrived in North America around 13,000 years ago.

Last May, Goodyear dug even deeper to see whether man's existence extended further back in time. Using a backhoe and hand excavations, Goodyear's team dug through the Pleistocene terrace soil, some 4 meters below the ground surface. Goodyear found a number of artifacts similar to the pre-Clovis forms he has excavated in recent years.

Then on the last day of the last week of digging, Goodyear's team uncovered a black stain in the soil where artifacts lay, providing him the charcoal needed for radiocarbon dating. Dr. Tom Stafford of Stafford Laboratories in Boulder, Colo., came to Topper and collected charcoal samples for dating.

"Three radiocarbon dates were obtained from deep in the terrace at Topper with two dates of 50,300 and 51,700 on burnt plant remains. One modern date related to an intrusion," Stafford says. "The two 50,000 dates indicate that they are at least 50,300 years. The absolute age is not known."

The revelation of an even older date for Topper is expected to heighten speculation about when man got to the Western Hemisphere and add to the debate over other pre-Clovis sites in the Eastern United States such as Meadowcroft Rockshelter, Pa., and Cactus Hill, Va.

In October 2005, archaeologists will meet in Columbia for a conference on Clovis and the study of earliest Americans. The conference will include a day trip to Topper, which is sure to dominate discussions and presentations at the international gathering. USC's Topper: A Timeline

May, 1998 — Dr. Al Goodyear and his team dig up to a meter below the Clovis level and encounter unusual stone tools up to two meters below surface.

May 1999 — Team of outside geologists led by Mike Waters, a researcher at Texas A&M, visit Topper site and propose a thorough geological study of locality.

May 2000 — Geology study done by consultants; ice age soil confirmed for pre-Clovis artifacts.

May 2001 — Geologists revisit Topper and obtain ancient plant remains deep down in the Pleistocene terrace. OSL (optically stimulated luminescence) dates on soils above ice age strata show pre-Clovis is at least older than 14,000.

May 2002 — Geologists find new profile showing ancient soil lying between Clovis and pre-Clovis, confirming the age of ice age soils between 16,000 - 20,000 years.

May 2003 — Archaeologists continue to excavate pre-Clovis artifacts above the terrace, as well as new, significant Clovis finds.

May 2004 — Using backhoe and hand excavations, Goodyear and his team dig deeper, down into the Pleistocene terrace, some 4 meters below the ground surface. Artifacts, similar to pre-Clovis forms excavated in previous years, recovered deep in the terrace. A black stain in the soil provides charcoal for radio carbon dating.

November 2004 — Radiocarbon dating report indicates that artifacts excavated from Pleistocene terrace in May were recovered from soil that dates some 50,000 years. The dates imply an even earlier arrival for humans in this hemisphere than previously believed, well before the last ice age. DR. ALBERT C. GOODYEAR III

University of South Carolina archaeologist Albert C. Goodyear joined the South Carolina Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology in1974 and has been associated with the Research Division since 1976. He is also the founder and director of the Allendale PaleoIndian Expedition, a program that involves members of the public in helping to excavate PaleoAmerican sites in the central Savannah River Valley of South Carolina.

Goodyear earned his bachelor's degree in anthropology from the University of South Florida (1968), his master's degree in anthropology from the University of Arkansas and his doctorate in anthropology from Arizona State University (1976). He is a member of the Society for American Archaeology, the Southeastern Archaeological Conference, the Archaeological Society of South Carolina, and the Florida Anthropological Society. He has served twice as president of the Archaeological Society of South Carolina and is on the editorial board of The Florida Anthropologist and the North American Archaeologist.

Goodyear developed his interest in archaeology in the 1960s as a member of the F1orida Anthropological Society and through avocational experiences along Florida's central Gulf Coast. He wrote and published articles about sites and artifacts from that region for The Florida Anthropologist in the late 1960s. His master's thesis on the Brand site, a late PaleoIndian Dalton site in northeast Arkansas, was published in 1974 by the Arkansas Archeological Survey. At Arizona State University, he did field research on Desert Hohokam mountain hunting and gathering sites in the Lower Sonoran desert of Southern Arizona.

Goodyear, whose primary research interest has been America's earliest human inhabitants, has focused on the period of the Pleistocene-Holocene transition dating between 12,000 and 9,000 years ago. He has taken a geoarchaeological approach to the search for deeply buried early sites by teaming up with colleagues in geology and soil science. For the past 15 years he has studied early prehistoric sites in Allendale County, S.C., in the central Savannah River Valley. These are stone tool manufacturing sites related to the abundant chert resources that were quarried in this locality.

This work has been supported by the National Park Service, the National Geographic Society, the University of South Carolina, the Archaeological Research Trust (SCIAA), the Allendale Research Fund, the Elizabeth Stringfellow Endowment Fund, Sandoz Chemical Corp. and Clariant Corp., the present owner of the site.

Goodyear is the author of over 100 articles, reports and books and regularly presents public lectures and professional papers on his PaleoIndian discoveries in South Carolina.


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Adapted from materials provided by University Of South Carolina.
Need to cite this story in your essay, paper, or report? Use one of the following formats:
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MLA University Of South Carolina (2004, November 18). New Evidence Puts Man In North America

It's just more "Have the cake and eat it too"

Satan's not intelligent, but he's capable of deceiving the greatest minds of men. He clearly had Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton totally decieved. Not bad work for a dumb demon.

Besides, if God and Satan are competing for human souls, then what gives with the Great Flood? Looks like Satan won that round. God flushed all the human "Soul Chips" over to Satan on that round then dealt a new hand with Noah and a few survivors.

Looks like Satan has been beating God at the poker game. Not bad for a dumb demon.

He even got 1/3 of God's angels behind him. Pretty clever work.

What would have happened if he had gotten 2/3 of God's angels behind him? Would that have constituted a win?

What constitues a win in these war games?

You'd think the Great flood would have been a victory for Satan. Are they shooting for best out of three?

Where are we at in the game now? According to Christians the vast majority of the world is still on Satan's side. Was there ever a time when God was in the lead?

There you have it folks. The info in the OP was clearly just biased propaganda for the sake of proselytizing an unproven myth.

Game over!

Score:

Librarian - 1
Proselytizing propagandaist - 0

Our Primate Origins: An Introduction Like all other organisms, humans have evolved over time from earlier species, and share a genetic relationship to all other forms of life on Earth. The study of human evolution involves understanding the similarities and differences between humans and other species in their genes, body form, physiology, and behavior.

To understand human evolution one must understand where humans fit in relation to other forms of life. Modern humans belong to the group of mammals known as Primates. This is the scientific category describing such diverse creatures as lemurs, lorises, tarsiers, the monkeys of the New World and Old World, and also the apes. As primates we all share many characteristics, such as overlapping fields of vision caused by forward looking eyes (this allows for greater 3D vision), fine ability to grasp and handle objects in our hands, and enlarged brains relative to body size. The evolution of the Primates started in the early part of the Eocene epoch (about 55 million years ago).


Olive Baboon: Papio anubis
Old World Monkey "Common" Chimpanzee: Pan troglodytes
African Ape
Photographs courtesy of Don Wilson, Smithsonian Institution, Department of Vertebrate Zoology

By comparing humans and other living species, scientists have learned that humans are most similar to the large apes of Africa and Asia. Among all animals, humans and apes are the most alike in brain and body form, by having a complex social life, and in many other major and minor features, including the lack of a tail. The fossil record of several ancient ape species collectively called Proconsul shows that the split between the common ancestors of the Old world monkeys (above left) and the apes (above right) happened in the earliest Miocene, at least 20 million years ago.

Comparisons of DNA show that our closest living relatives are the ape species of Africa, and most studies by geneticists show that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other than either is to gorillas. However, it must be stressed that humans did not evolve from living chimpanzees. Rather, our species and chimpanzees are both the descendants of a common ancestor that was distinct from other African apes. This common ancestor is thought to have existed in the Pliocene between 5 and 8 million years ago, based on the estimated rates of genetic change. Both of our species have since undergone 5 to 8 million years of evolution after this split of the two lineages. Using the fossil record, scientists attempt to reconstruct the evolution from this common ancestor through the series of early human species to today's modern human species.

So when did humans originate? The answer to that question really depends on what traits are meant by the term "human."

Our understanding of the fossil record shows that distinctively human traits appeared neither recently nor all at once. Rather, they evolved piecemeal over a period of roughly 5 million years. By 4 million years ago, humans were habitually bipedal (walking on two legs) yet had brains roughly a third of the size of a modern human's (about the size of a modern ape's brain). By 2.5 million years ago the manufacture of stone tools was common. Large increases in brain size occurred even later. Complex behaviors such as adaptation to a wide range of environments and cultural diversification emerged only within the last 100,000 years.



No where does it say that the apes of today existed then. Everything is evolved from something earlier. Evolution being a natural process taking place due to internal (genetic) changes, evironmental changes, etc...

I feel that the connection with ALL life on this planet is an honor. I cannot understand how anyone could think of this as an insult.