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Sun 10/24/10 10:43 PM
Echoes of El Salvador in Tales of US-Approved Death Squads

by Patrick Cockburn

The Iraqi documents released by Wikileaks produce significantly more detail on US actions in the war in Iraq , but do they produce anything that we did not know already?

The Pentagon will huff and puff with rage as it did over the Wikileaks release of US military documents about Afghanistan, when it took the contradictory position that there was little new in what has been leaked, but important sources of intelligence had somehow still been compromised.

The leaks are important because they prove much of what was previously only suspected but never admitted by the US army or explained in detail. It was obvious from 2004 that US forces almost always ignored cases of torture by Iraqi government forces, but this is now shown to have been official policy. Of particular interest to Iraqis, when Wikileaks releases the rest of its hoard of documents, will be to see if there is any sign of how far US forces were involved in death squad activities from 2004.

From the summer of 2004 Iraq slipped into a sectarian civil war of great savagery as al-Qa'ida launched attacks on the Shia who increasingly dominated the government. From late in 2004 Interior Ministry troops trained by the Americans were taking part in savage raids on Sunni or suspected Baathist districts. People prominent in Saddam Hussein's regime were arrested and disappeared for few days until their tortured bodies were dumped beside the roads.

Iraqi leaders whispered that the Americans were involved in the training of what were in fact death squads in official guise. It was said that US actions were modeled on counter-insurgency methods pioneered in El Salvador by US-trained Salvadoran government units.

It was no secret that torture of prisoners had become the norm in Iraqi government prisons as it established its own security services from 2004. Men who were clearly the victims of torture were often put on television where they would confess to murder, torture and rape. But after a time it was noticed that many of those whom they claimed to have killed were still alive.

The Sunni community at this time were terrified of mass sweeps by the US forces, sometimes accompanied by Iraqi government units, in which all young men of military age were arrested. Tribal elders would often rush to the American to demand that the prisoners not be handed over to the Iraqi army or police who were likely to torture or murder them. The power drill was a favorite measure of torture. It is clear that the US military knew all about this.

From the end of 2007 the war began to change as the Americans began to appear as the defenders of the Sunni community. The US military offensives against al-Qa'ida and the Mehdi Army Shiah militia were accompanied by a rash of assassinations. Again it would be interesting to know more detail about how far the US military was involved in these killings, particularly against the followers of the nationalist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

There were a series of interconnected conflicts going on in in Iraq during the American occupation in 2004-9. One that the seldom made headlines involved a series of tit-for-tat killings and kidnappings against each other by the Americans and Iranians. This reached its peak in 2007 when the Americans tried to seize Iranian intelligence leaders visiting Kurdistan and US soldiers were killed in an abortive raid in Kerbala. The capture of British naval personnel by Iranian Revolutionary Guards may have been part of this shadowy conflict.

Information about Iraq leaked, like that about Afghanistan, should come with a health warning. The Americans were often told by Iraqis, low level agents or high level ministers, what they supposed the Americans wanted to hear, notably that an Iranian hand was behind many anti-American actions. Much of this is likely to be nonsense.

Information given to the Americans by Afghan intelligence implicating Pakistan and ISI military intelligence in aiding the Taliban was obviously concocted. It is not that the Pakistan military do not help the Taliban but they do so subtly and with care to make sure their involvement cannot be traced. Iraqi intelligence passed to the Americans is likely to be equally biased.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/10/23-2

Atlantis75's photo
Sun 10/24/10 10:38 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Sun 10/24/10 10:41 PM

Islamic Court, Wife Beating: UAE (United Arab Emirates) Federal Supreme Court Okay if Leaves No Physical Marks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58&feature=player_embedded

UAE Islamic Court, Wife Beating: United Arab Emirates Federal Supreme Court Okay if Leaves No Physical Marks (Cuts & Bruises)

The United Arab Emirates Federal Supreme Court has given official permission for men to beat their wives in line with Islamic tradition. A man may beat his wife and young children as long as the beating leaves no physical marks. This follows on the heels of prominent Islamic scholars who have voiced similar opinions. It might be pointed out that even in Western society wife beating was legal in some circumstances and locations in the United States for example until explicitly outlawed in 1870. The UAE ruling specifies that no physical marks may be left, though this leaves open questions of the degree that this entails. This is in contrast to a UAE case in which a man who left cuts & bruises on wife & adult daughter which was ruled criminal, specifically “guilty of harming” the women, but not of the disciplinary action itself.

Posted on October 19th, 2010

http://www.supermediablog.com/news/islamic-court-wife-beating-uae-united-arab-emirates-federal-supreme-court-leaves-no-physical-marks/


In Africa in certain countries, witch hunting is just another thing. They throw the women accused of witchcraft into a pit filled with hay and turn them on fire and watch them burn alive.

United States is not invading Africa and there aren't "spreading democracy" there.

In Papua New Guinea, cannibalism is still around. Sometimes they eat the recently deceased.

United States is not invading New Guinea, to spread democracy.

In Cambodia, there is an ongoing war against Thailand, where schools are torched along with the students because they "represent the Thai government".

United States in not invading Cambodia to spread democracy.

.
..
...
....
......

The United Arab Emirates, along with Saudi Arabia are considered "friendly" with USA, even Bush had a nice tongue kiss with the Saudi ruler back in 2003.

How ironic.

The only reason you continue to post issues related to the Middle East is because of your hatred against Muslims, it has little to do with human rights violation or anything like that, it's just easy to pick on an issue such as their law system, which is flawed by all means, but I doubt you really care about Arab women's human rights anyway, since they are "Muslims", just like the men there, so I really doubt that you care at all anyway, so it's good to selectively find news about the Muslims, because it's alien to you and you are just afraid. Make sure you check under your bed before you go to sleep, there might be a Muslim hiding there trying to kill you.

Atlantis75's photo
Mon 10/11/10 09:45 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Mon 10/11/10 09:50 PM




Look I am tired of you calling names. Not one person in this thread has called a name but you, even political motivate names. Keep the personal attacks to yourself.
I don't care if the definition of ******* describes you I wont use it on this forum, so don't use "birthers" to describe people here unless you want the insults and name calling to start. Make your point without insulting people.


LOL!!!!

Well, report me and we'll let the mods decide. I think if you read the rules, though, using "******" to hide insults is waaay past anything I'm guilty of, imagined or othewise, in this thread. 'Birthers' after all, isn't an epithet, a profanity or anything that doesn't appear in the blogosphere ALL THE TIME. Besides, I haven't actually called anyone that, I just have run their positions up the flag pole and stood back and watched who saluted and with how much vigor.

That's what really separates the fanatics from the moderates.

Oh, and BTW? I've never registered to vote as anything but an Independent and though I find the Republicans pretty culpable for a lot of what transpired over the last 10 years, that doesn't mean I love what the Democrats have with the franchise handed to them in '06. I really feel voting as an Independent oftimes comes down to choosing between the lesser of two evils.

And I'm STILL waiting on citations of those court cases-- could it be *gasp* THAT THERE ARE NONE??? And this accusation of ad hominem attacks is just to get rid of the pesky person who keeps pointing out that the Birth Certificate Emperor is Naked? LOL!!

-Kerry O.


It's pointless to explain anything to these people here in the politics forum. You have a better chance teaching an elephant to fly. Let them cook in their own stew.

Actually it would be best for independent minded folks not even reply and boycott the entire politics forum on mingle2. Obviously even the mingle staff is biased to allow them to spew their hatred.
That's ok though, they got their men...I'll be working on to clean up this place by hitting them where it hurts the most. Their advertisers and bringing down some internet police into their necks. They really think they can get away with this, they are wrong. I'm serious too..I had it with this place, they gonna regret it and there isn't a damn thing they can do about it. They either clean up after their members or disappear from the web. That's it.

Atlantis75's photo
Mon 10/11/10 09:01 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Mon 10/11/10 09:01 PM
/makes a note for future references/

I know why certain people here can say whatever hateful stuff they want to say.

Atlantis75's photo
Mon 10/11/10 08:58 PM








funny how when the shoe is on the other foot, its considered "dirty politics"...spock

it's also funny when someone from another country is worried about our politics...


of course I worry...you think Id give a rats butt if you guys stayed in your own sand box ??.


i guess you know of those secret plans to take over south America, huh...

China already beat us to it.
They got Wal-Marts there.laugh laugh

how do you say wal mart in german spanish?

Mein-Tiendita.

Wonder if they have press 2 for Spanish??


i think we are the only country in the world the does that... maybe canada, with french...


Wrong. Most European countries are about 2-3 different languages. Even the restaurant waiters speak at least 2 (English and German) many 3 (English, German,French).

You got to Sweden, it's at least two (Swedish and English), Germany (3), France (3), England (2) Ireland (2) China (2 or 3 ), I think India leads the way with like 30 different Indian dialects + English.

In Brazil, it's Portuguese or Spanish or English

Actually I think it's only USA in the whole world, that argues about such an issue like this.

Atlantis75's photo
Mon 10/11/10 08:00 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Mon 10/11/10 08:28 PM

Atlantis75's photo
Mon 10/11/10 07:57 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Mon 10/11/10 07:59 PM

UK hostage Linda Norgrove 'killed by vest bomb'
Linda Norgrove



Too bad warmongers, that the whole story is a bogus again.


Linda Norgrove: aid worker 'killed by friendly fire'

Linda Norgrove, the British aid worker, may have been killed by a grenade thrown by US troops trying to rescue her from Taliban kidnappers in Afghanistan.

Speaking at a press conference at 10 Downing Street, Mr Cameron said it was not yet certain that Miss Norgrove's death was caused by allied forces.

US commander General David Petraeus informed Downing Street this morning that a review of the rescue operation had uncovered new information suggesting that a grenade detonated by taskforce members may have been to blame.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8055794/Linda-Norgrove-aid-worker-killed-by-friendly-fire.html

And all of you who called for firebombing entire countries are no better than Hitler himself.
Still waiting for the answer WTF is the USA doing in AFghanistan.

Atlantis75's photo
Mon 10/11/10 07:48 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Mon 10/11/10 07:50 PM
The biggest perpetrators and instigators of racism are the government, politics and the media.

"White America, Black America, White Votes, Black Votes, Hispanic Votes, Is Obama Black enough? White enough? , Is Obama a "mud"? Will the Republicans secure the white votes? black votes? Are the blacks gonna vote for Democrat? GOP? Does the GOP has a black candidate? Why is the GOP all white? Why is the tea party all white? Why do the blacks support Democrats? What's the percentage of Jewish voters for Democrats? Muslims? Arabs?

You don't even notice that you have been placed into various groups, regardless of what you think of yourself and you have been TOLD what the whites and the blacks gonna vote. The Government and the media treats you all like groups, not individuals with independent mind.

Can you find 2 people who think the same way? Of course not. What would make you believe that 10 or 10,000 would think the same way?

And yet you believe how the "blacks" gonna vote, and to top it off, the blacks think they all "supposed to" vote this way or that way, because the TV said so..and then Obama is loosing the "white" supporters, so now, if you think you are a "white" person, you should be distancing from Obama, since the media "told you so".

Does anyone else see this f...ing murderous and sinister propaganda beside me?


Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 09:27 PM

We were together for 4 months before this. We texted a bit here and there during breaks at work, but for the most part we talked over the phone or we went out together. And then silence, and then the text he sent me. I know it wasn't a long relationship, and I did sense the end coming, I didn't sense the whole text message break up. It doesn't hurt less after the first time, it hurts more... Sometimes I hate technology.


I hate to say it, but he probably has someone else already, otherwise he is a coward anyway for breaking up via text. Text him back: You are a coward, you wouldn't even face me to tell me this". Trust me,it will make you feel better. flowerforyou

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 09:23 PM

It finally downloaded and I am running it. So far I can't tell any difference in the upgrade except for a few colour changes. But I do like colours to play with.


I'm not sure, but the major improvements are the social interaction stuff while logged on to several social sites, you get your messages at one place....or something like that..sort of like an android-phone OS kinda thing.
I'm not completely sure, because I only had 10.10 installed for a short while and my hard drive gave me the finger, so I had to buy a new HD and so far I only have Win7 installed until I re-install Ubuntu again on a separate partition again.

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 09:17 PM

Okay so an online friend and I have been attempting to finally meet for about 2 months now. We've know each other online for about 2 yrs. Work stuff at his end kept coming up so plans haven't panned out.

Now, I live on the family farm. Cattle, horses, goats, pigs, chickens etc. Someone has to take care of them. I do most of the work since its my hobby and they're mostly my animals. I definitely get them when dad goes out of town/state on jobs. He will take care of them for me when I grab a break/weekend. Works great.

The folks were gone last week on a mini-vacation. Dad is gone for 3 weeks starting Sunday.

This friend has been texting and calling this past week on when can we get together. I've told him every single time that Nov 1 will be when I am free again. He doesn't seem to get the concept.

Why?! Is it a test of some sort? Does he hope to wear me down and I will suddenly be free?

Because all he is doing is seriously pissing me off.



Invite him.

When he shows up, say "Hi! I told you I'm busy, so while you here grab the shovel and get the sh.t out of the horse barn. If you get thirsty, there is water in the faucet."
Make sure that you are armed with something..like a pitchfork or a bullwhip if he tries anything funny.

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 09:11 PM
Welcome to the 21st. Century.

Women are now called .jpeg-s guys are jpeg viewers, and while you have a steaming hot relationship on facebook and send kisses via text messages, expect to be dumped by a text message.

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 09:08 PM


Wow, so I must be some super angel-like figure then. Last time I spent 300 dollars away on a date. (restaurant, later a bar, and then a dance club)

Anyone knows which drink it is that cost 48 dollars ? Seriously I'm trying to figure out what sort of a drink could cost that much, because I paid 190 dollars on a dinner for 2. Hey, yeah that's Connecticut for you. And just for fun..after the night ended, she calls me back on the phone next day "We really don't fit together, so I wish you good luck".

Now..i miss my 300 bucks...frustrated
i spend that at the titty bar...my drinks are 15 dollars, hers are 25 dollars...go figure...


I was just about to say, that I could spend 300 bucks for mushy talks, smileys and maybes, while 70 bucks could get me laid with all the middle talk part completely avoided and all I need to do is visit craigslist or just get the "word of the mouth" from some friends who could provide me with a "sure date" phone number. :smile:

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 08:57 PM
So the basic defense from the right, that "the left is corrupt too, so it's ok to be a corrupt individual". I see.

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 08:54 PM
I took the blue pill long time ago, and ever since I take tums after reading the news and mingle2.

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 08:48 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Sat 10/09/10 08:50 PM
Wow, so I must be some super angel-like figure then. Last time I spent 300 dollars away on a date. (restaurant, later a bar, and then a dance club)

Anyone knows which drink it is that cost 48 dollars ? Seriously I'm trying to figure out what sort of a drink could cost that much, because I paid 190 dollars on a dinner for 2. Hey, yeah that's Connecticut for you. And just for fun..after the night ended, she calls me back on the phone next day "We really don't fit together, so I wish you good luck".

Now..i miss my 300 bucks...frustrated

Atlantis75's photo
Sat 10/09/10 08:23 AM
A New York real estate mogul with ties to Donald Trump is at the center of an international sex scandal - suspected of running a high-priced prostitution ring.

Tevfik Arif, 57, has been detained in Turkey on suspicion of setting up trysts between wealthy businessmen and Eastern European models - some underage - aboard a $60 million yacht once used by the nation's founder, Mustafa Ataturk.

Arif, whose Bayrock Group co-developed the Trump SoHo and the Trump International Hotel and Tower in Fort Lauderdale, was among 10 people rounded up in Tuesday's raid on suspicion of running a prostitution ring.

Prosecutor Yusuf Hakki Dogan said the Savarona yacht was used twice for sexcapades, the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet reported.

"This is the man who defiled the Savarona," read the headline on the cover of the Turkish paper Milliyet, beside a photo of Arif.

Ten models from Russia and Ukraine were detained, but one was released, Bloomberg News reported. Two of the women were underage.

The businessmen reportedly paid $3,000 to $10,000 per night to bed the women aboard the 450-foot yacht.

The luxury vessel, which boasts 16 suites, a 282-foot gold-trimmed grand staircase, a movie theater, Turkish bath and helicopter pad, was used by Ataturk before he died in 1938.

In 1989, Turkish businessman Kahraman Sadikoglu paid the government for the right to operate the yacht, which he reportedly rents out for $30,000 to $40,000 a day.

Russian, Kyrgyz and Kazakh businessmen and top government officials were also among those detained, Bloomberg News reported.

Last night, Arif was being questioned at a police station near the Mediterranean resort town of Antalya.

Antalya provincial spokesman Mahmut Deniz said there's been no decision on whether to press charges.

Arif is the victim of a "smear campaign" and will "vigorously defend himself in any court of law," his lawyer, Engin Agyuzlu, said in an email to Bloomberg News.

In addition to the Trump properties in New York and Florida, Arif's firm developed the Trump International Hotel and Tower Phoenix, the Waterpointe, a residential development in Whitestone, Queens, and the Riverhead Resorts in Suffolk County, L.I.

In an interview in 2007, Arif extolled the benefits of his relationship with The Donald.

"He's been very helpful to us from the beginning and he's been very helpful in opening some doors," Arif told Real Estate Weekly.

Photos from the 2007 launch party for the Trump SoHo Hotel show Trump and Arif palling around together. Arif was also photographed beside Trump and his three kids: Eric, Donald Jr., and Ivanka.

A spokeswoman for Trump declined to comment on his relationship with Arif.

A source said Trump hasn't spoken to Arif "in years."

The Kazakh-born Arif worked for the Ministry of Commerce and Trade in the former Soviet Union for 17 years, serving as the deputy director of its Department of Hotel Management, according to Real Estate Weekly.

After moving to the U.S., Arif's first project was the redevelopment of a 280,000 square-foot waterfront shopping center in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. Loehmann's Seaport Plaza was sold in 2008 for a reported $24 million.

Arif founded Bayrock in 2001, which he operates out of an office on Fifth Ave.

"Bayrock knows nothing about the matter," said a spokeswoman for the firm.

Arif owns a three-story mansion in Port Washington, L.I., worth more than $6 million, records show.

In recent years, Bayrock has been the target of multiple lawsuits.

In suits filed in New York and Delaware, former Bayrock finance director Jody Kriss claims that the firm defrauded the IRS and embezzled millions from its subsidiaries.

In a separate lawsuit filed in August in Manhattan Federal Court, 15 buyers of the Trump SoHo Hotel sued Arif, Trump, his children, and Arif's partner, Alex Sapir, charging they had inflated sales in their marketing pitches to encourage them to buy into the condo.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/10/01/2010-10-01_donald_trump_pal_tevfik_arif_busted_in_turkey_for_allegedly_running_hooker_ring_.html#ixzz11sLFLgDt

Atlantis75's photo
Fri 10/08/10 03:48 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Fri 10/08/10 03:50 PM




I have seen you state your opinion of everything but offer no facts to debate your opinion. If you don't mind showing me some facts or proof I would appreciate it. You see when I read this I see the connections that he comments on. I don't agree with everything but I felt that the information was valuable. All you have done is disagree but where are your statistics or studies to support your ideas? I can show you mine.


Honey..anyone who reads that first article in the starting post can tell you that , it's nothing but an opinion of someone who has little or no research in the historical event of the Great Depression and what has lead to it in the first place.

For facts, visit these sites with unbaised views:

(and why these? Because it's called "peer previewed" and accepted by many educational boards)

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/depression/about.htm

http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/great-depression.htm

here is detailed a .pdf document from the Berkeley College of California.
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~cromer/great_depression.pdf

Don't turn to facts to political figures and questionable internet personas in incognito., turn to educational portals.





Atlantis75's photo
Thu 10/07/10 10:16 PM
Edited by Atlantis75 on Thu 10/07/10 10:21 PM
I'm just gonna go at the article.


This is definitely worth the read people. If you really love this country you will read this.

http://www.nikitas3.com/10_ways_that_liberal_socialism_m.htm


Not necessarly. I don't have to read this to love this country. :wink:


As economic systems, capitalism and socialism are opposites and each claims to be superior. Capitalism adheres to the natural laws of economics, the center of which is supply and demand which says that when the supply drops or the demand rises, the cost of a product will rise; and when supply rises or demand falls, prices will fall.


That's a very poor explanation. Capitalism means, that the "capital" is maintained as the money making tool available for private use. Anything can be a capital, such as tools and factories, whatever that can be used to create profit.


Of course politicians may seek to ameliorate the effects of the natural laws of economics, but that does not make supply and demand any less real, just as you cannot contravene the law of gravity by making an apple float in the air.

"Politicans" is not like a group of people who work on a sinister plot to undermine everyone..that would be the wrong idea to start out with. Let's just say there are corrupt ones and there are legit ones.


Ultimately a free economy will right itself on its own while politicians, using government edicts, may make things better in the short run, but always make things worse in the long run. This was demonstrated in the late 1920s after the stock market crashed.

It had little to do with politicians and more had to do with lenders and banks doing the exact same thing like right now, consolidating and confiscating, preying on the people for more money, since unregulated lending and borrowing has led to such circumstances, that the money promised just wasn't there.


In a panic, the government, under enormous public pressure, cut off free trade under the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act by imposing heavy taxes (a socialist idea) on imports. This slowed down international trade and killed millions of jobs in America.

LOL! It's called protection of home made products against competing off shore companies. It's actually a very conservative idea, trying to save the home made products to loose the competitive edge. Funny how this whoever is this nikkita tries to make this sound like this played some sort of a giant role.


These taxes were ‘protectionist’ measures that liberals always use to ‘protect’ jobs,


"always", "never", "forever" - anyone uses those words have a strong prejudice ..demonstrated even here on mingle2 on dating how always "all" women are such cheaters. Is that fair to say? Of course not. Neither this.

Who are these "liberals" anyway?

when in fact the overall result was to kill jobs, as it is today. When foreign governments in the 1930s retaliated with tariffs of their own on American imports, the whole world economy slowed down.


Let's not forget, that not only in USA was in a great depression, but the entire Europe just got out of WWI and the economies were pretty much destroyed world wide. It was hardly a "retaliation", most likely they just couldn't buy the products while their countries were suffering from unemployment and poverty.


Second, in the wake of the stock market crash, the government imposed big tax increases on business and on wealthy Americans in order to get more money for the government.


Statement without proof = Speculation and propaganda. Just like today, the wealthiest Americans are 2% of USA and they have more wealth than the rest of the 99% combined. That's a fact.
What they have done in the past 3 years to ease the economic recession? = Nothing, but collected even more wealth. Actually 2008, 2009 were very profitable to the biggest and wealthiest of corporations, Exxon mobile had a record profit, like never before, while General Electrics avoided paying any taxes. Again, facts, google arond to find those.



Yet any capitalist will tell you that taxing people is the quickest way to slow down an economy. And the great depression of the 1930s was the biggest slowdown in American history.


Trying to suggest now, that because the top 2% had a tax increase (during the depression) caused the depression? LOL!


Third, the Federal Reserve shrank the money supply by one-third in the wake of the crash. The Federal Reserve is part of the government. So another stupid action by the government caused the great depression to happen.


The Federal Reserver as much "Federal" as FedEx. It's a privately owned bank, and has nothing to do with the government, beside lending money on government treasury notes with an interest. Basically a giant loan shark.




[quote*imposing heavy taxes on imports (liberal idea)

LOL..again, conservative idea..but it can't be really tied down to a political ideology anyway, since protecting the domestic products by taxing imports actually creates jobs at home and stops the outsourcing of jobs to off shore corporations (who will employ their own people or 3rd world people who will work for a dollar/day).



*raising taxes on business and individuals (liberal idea), and

*allowing the Federal Reserve (the government acting stupidly) to act in a haphazard manner to shrink the money supply, these elements combined like a ‘perfect storm’ to cause the economic collapse of the 1930s.

Then FDR, elected in 1932, said he was going to make everything better by hiring people with government money for make-work jobs like building highways and bridges to nowhere. Yet unemployment was higher in 1938 than it was in 1932!

So socialism started it, then lengthened and deepened the depression. If the economy had been left alone, it would have righted itself and the depression never would have happened.

So much for socialism.

Socialists claim that capitalism is unfair and exploitative, while capitalism says that socialism taxes people unfairly and favors the transfer of wealth from productive people to unproductive ones, i.e., that socialism is unfair and exploitative.

At many places on this website, Nikitas3.com has pointed out the superiority of capitalism. And to look at world history, all of the prosperous and productive societies have had open-market capitalist economies with free trade within and without. And all the destitute societies that could have been prosperous - like the Soviet Union and communist China - have been operated on socialistic ideas. The capitalist island of Taiwan, a breakaway nation formed by fleeing Chinese when communism came to mainland China, has a living standard as high as anywhere in the world.

Capitalism, of course, needs to be regulated. Even George Washington said that. To have an economic system without some regulations would be the same as having a society without criminal laws. Chaos would reign because there always are people who will push the limit of what is allowed for their own benefit.

Socialism, on the other hand, it not a natural system at all, but is a contrived man-made system with all its rules and regulations set by politicians. And thus it is bound to fail because every time socialism finds an imbalance, it seeks to correct it with more laws and taxes and regulations. There is no natural system for regulating socialism. A contrived system can only be regulated by more contrivances. And when politicians seek to correct an economic shortcoming through socialist means, they always come up with a worse solution because they always put personal interests first.

So a good, regulated form of capitalism is far superior to any form of socialism for one reason only: Capitalism is the only economic system that actually creates wealth, while socialism is a system dedicated only to transferring wealth from one group to another. That is why liberals always favor taxation (it is their “wages”) and why socialism always leads to economic decline; because every aspect of socialism hinders, obstructs, or destroys wealth creation (taxation, regulation, bureaucracy, big government, corruption, patronage, environmental restrictions etc.)

This is not to say that taxation, regulation and environmentalism should be eliminated. Because they are part of the laws that must regulate capitalism. But those laws should be minimized, because by themselves those laws create zero wealth and thus the more they intervene in the economy the more they reduce jobs and opportunity for people to create their own destinies. Ultimately they destroy wealth.

Socialism encourages the wrong kind of “passive” people to succeed (welfare recipients, lazy government workers, overpaid public school teachers, corrupt urban political functionaries, slothful college professors who work 6 months a year etc.) and thus encourages entropy.

Capitalism, on the other hand, encourages “active” productive, creative and individualistic people to succeed, which leads to more prosperity. If each member of the society is strong and vibrant, the society will prosper. If each is slothful, the society will collapse.

In the big picture, socialism weakens the strong and strengthens the weak. This is the reason that socialism always fails and causes economic decline. If you visit a communist nation, where all the ideals of socialism are enforced at the point of a gun, you will find the population impoverished, starving and deprived of even the most basic material goods.

For instance Russia was a wheat exporter until the time of the communist takeover in 1917, and then the nation immediately suffered food shortages and starvation. This always happens under systems in which theoretically everyone is supposed to be taken care of and everyone is supposed to be equal. Ironically these socialist systems indeed are successful at that because most of the population ends up equal. Equally poor, that is.

At the same time, the leaders like Castro in Cuba and Chavez in Venezuela end up with vast fortunes tucked away in foreign accounts (while Republican George Bush’s assets in 2007 were a piddling $7.3 million) while their bureaucratic class – the government functionaries who run the everyday society – end up with all the highest and most secure privileges of the middle class, much like a public school superintendent profiled recently on CNN’s Black In America series was shown driving a brand new Mercedes-Benz and living in an elegant neighborhood while public school educrats always cry poverty.

It is important to note that people who advance in the bureaucratic, governmental society run by socialism lack all of the characteristics that are important to a growing and advancing society.

They are generally conformist, lazy, mediocre, willing to be led, thoroughly uncreative and are obsessed with money and with having an easy life.

They are not ambitious, creative, intelligent, motivated or individualistic.

That is why even the arts have spiraled downward into nothingness in the 20th and 21st century as socialism’s tentacles of mediocrity reach into every corner and crevice of society.

The people in socialism’s bureaucracy are attracted to that life because they are the type of people who are incapable of making anything of themselves in a competitive society. They are, by nature, colorless. It is a personality type that is attracted to, and thrives under, mediocre state socialism. Not all of them of course. There are some good people in the government.

But most are lesser, "passive" people. "Get a government job," they think from youth. "That way you will be taken care of. Take the civil service exam."

How many motivated, exciting, ambitious and interesting people do you know personally who thought to take the civil service exam?

Precious few, if any.

And they bring the whole society down because the society becomes like them because they hold the power. Under socialism, people advance only by two things -- by their conformity, and by their allegiance to the bureaucracy. And they can become relatively rich and powerful that way, like the school superintendent noted above.

The nation of India followed the path of the Soviet Union after its independence from Britain in 1947. India became extremely socialistic and was famous for two things – its giant, unwieldy and all-controlling government bureaucracy, and its poverty. The two go hand in hand.

After India in 1992 elected Mohandas Singh as its president with ideas to cut the bureaucracy and to let free-market capitalism reign, the country has since added 300 million people to its middle class. Easily.

Once-poor nations like Estonia, a former Soviet communist satellite, have become world-class success stories after they gutted their bureaucracies and instituted capitalist ideas that even America has not yet seen fit to adopt, like the flat tax.

Yet now it is America that is in economic decline as the Democrat party imprints its ideas on the nation. Taxation has risen steadily over the decades despite Republican presidents and efforts to lower them; endless regulations control every facet of life; poor people are increasingly dependent on government; hard-working people are taxed more and more; overzealous environmental regulations crush businesses and drive them abroad; and labor unions confront the companies that employ them day after day, and eventually kill millions of jobs and trillions in wealth. Just look at what unions are doing to General Motors, Ford and Chrysler today. In 10 years, they will be gone.

Capitalism, on the other hand, indeed is a system that favors ‘survival of the fittest’ for which it is roundly and routinely criticized. Liberals say that this is evil, that we must think about the poor and the weak among us. But a system that favors the strong really is superior because any system that consistently favors the weak will encourage weakness to thrive and ultimately will hurt everybody, including the poor, much more than capitalism. Go to a communist nation that could be wealthy under capitalism and everyone will be poor under socialism.

For instance if a liberal government gives single mothers money to support their children rather than encouraging families to stay together and fathers to support their children, it creates a weak, dependent society where girls grow up expecting that their children will be supported by the government. This creates chaos and a static bureaucratic society in which the colorless, odorless, tasteless government functionary who hands out checks is seen as the leader. Obviously not a very pretty picture.

Capitalism gives people from the bottom up the power to create their own destinies. In fact it is only a capitalist economy that creates a middle class at all. Go to a communist country and there is no middle class at all except for the small strata of government functionaries who work directly for the leader. Otherwise there is no middle class.

In communist countries, for example, there is no food for most of the population, even in the cities. Then go to any poor third-world nation with anything like a free-market, capitalist economy and you will see poor people in the market selling vegetables that they have grown. In other words, people have the power to control their own lives without government intervention, and this increases the potential of the whole society.

And while these poor people certainly do not lead glamorous lives, their occupation represents their freedom, just as a low-income person in America may wash windows or perform some other service like cutting grass. It is what he has in order to create wealth for himself. And thus it is good. He works, he has something to think about, he has something to care about, and he’s not hanging out on the corner all day doing nothing, an activity for which government-dependent people are famous.

Of course a socialist says that poor people must have dignity, and should not be dependent on demeaning jobs like cutting grass. And the question is why? Why must everyone work in an office and make $50,000 a year as the socialist ideal dictates? Because many poor people don’t even have the skills to earn money.

The fact is that much of poverty in America is due to socialism itself. The public schools – run lock, stock and barrel by the Democrats – often fail to teach even the basics. Democrats over-tax and over-regulate business. They spend far too much money on nonproductive government functions. Environmentalism restricts our energy supply and drives up the price of gasoline and electricity. Democrat labor unions run companies out of business. Seems like socialism really does destroy wealth, does it not?

See the Nikitas3.com essay below 10 Ways that Socialism Makes People Poor to see the many ways in which state socialism itself thwarts individual and societal economic improvement, and makes more and more people poor, while enriching the socialist elite like the Kennedys.

The goal of socialism is to get as much wealth as possible into the hands of people who believe in socialism, without regard for the cost to the overall society.

Many of the ultra-rich in America today are card-carrying Democrats. The richest people in the United State Senate are all Democrats. And Democrats now represent in Congress much more than half of all “rich” districts and states. See the essays in the section Who “The Rich” Really Are in America Today, accessible from the Nikitas3.com home page. It shows step by step how the rich and super-rich often support socialism… and why.

What is important is that the wealth created by a growing capitalist society offers money to support the poor who cannot support themselves. Americans are famously generous to charity and to the poor nations of the world, while poor people in America often have relatively high standards of living, with access to food, clothing, housing and medical care that not even middle class people have had throughout most of history, and living vastly better lives than poor people in other nations today.

Many people in America who are statistically ‘poor’ in fact have air conditioning, cars, and even own their own homes! To read the actual facts about poor people in America see this great article from Robert E. Rector at The Heritage Foundation. It will amaze you! www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm

Yet what are the socialists saying today about America? They are saying, “Look, now the middle class is being squeezed out. There are no longer the opportunities there used to be. Capitalism is failing.”

And this is true; our middle class is shrinking. But several things can be said about this. First, when America was booming in the 1950s with all the best jobs and housing that man could ever hope for, the left-wing 1950s ‘beatniks’ and the 1960s ‘hippies’ said this was a terrible way to live, and that man was doomed to a boring, conformist life. Now those same ‘hippies’ are in positions of power and they are all wondering why we don’t have all the great jobs that we had in the 1950s!

And the reason we don’t have those jobs is simple: The destructive policies that those 1960s ‘hippies’ have imposed on our nation over many decades have irrevocably harmed our economy... taxation, regulation, bureaucracy, labor union demands (particularly among unionized government workers) zealous environmental restrictions etc. all have pushed jobs overseas. And enviro objection to domestic energy production has led to the biggest job ‘outsourcing’ of all, hundreds of billions in oil money flowing abroad that all could be being spent here at home.

No, the ‘hippies’ now are in the United States Congress, and in governorships and state legislatures all over. And every single time they get power, their policies cause economic decline. Here is an essay about the destructive effects of socialism on the American economy from the Thinking Points section of this website called About Those ‘Two Americas’:



The media report regularly on the status of the nation’s economy. One of the most watched figures is the unemployment number. Other figures include claims for food stamps and other indicators of economic woe.

When a Republican is president, the media attempt to portray the unemployment numbers in the most negative light possible. For instance, when the number is good they will talk about a period when the number was better. When the number is bad, they jump for joy and talk about the failing Republican president.

So you have to really think about what is happening with the economy to put unemployment figures in context. In June 2008, it was reported that the rate rose to 5.5% in May, which still is low by historical standards. But the media made it appear once more like Bush was failing.

Look closer, however, and you will see that we do live in “Two Americas”, as former Democrat presidential candidate John Edwards liked to say. Only problem is the “Two Americas” are not the ones that Edwards or other liberals even would dare discuss if they were being honest.

First: Consider the black inner cities of America – New York, Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, etc. -- that include tens of millions of citizens. Who controls these areas with an iron grip?

The Democrat party does, that’s who.

Why is the unemployment rate, dependence on food stamps and other government handouts, the poverty rate and the murder rate always much higher in these areas than elsewhere in the nation?

Because the Democrats have crafted policies that insure that they are going to be higher. The terrible public schools, run without any challenge by the Democrat bureaucracy and the teacher unions, are failing miserably. Democrat liberals, who run the entertainment industry, get rich while inundating these areas with defeatist and violent messages like hip-hop and rap music. Democrat party bureaucracies and corrupt urban governments make starting a business very difficult. Abysmal leftist social standards exonerate broken families, fatherlessness and single motherhood, all of which contribute greatly to poverty. So all in all, there is little economic opportunity, and people remain poor.

So when the dismal economic figures from these inner cities are rolled into the national figures, it makes America look bad. No distinction is made between poor inner-city America, controlled by Democrats, and the more prosperous parts of the nation that are more conservative.

So indeed, there are Two Americas. Only problem is, Democrats don’t want to talk about those Two Americas.

Now look at the nation as a whole.

The South is booming economically. The most vibrant economy in the nation is in… Texas! Yes, evil George Bush’s Texas offers opportunity, hope, jobs and prosperity. How could this be? Is not Bush the embodiment of rapacious capitalism?

What other states are booming? How about Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina and other “redneck” states.

Why?

Because they have long histories of conservative policies – low taxes, low regulation, less bureaucracy, fewer business-busting unions. People from the North are flowing into the South for jobs and opportunity.

Meanwhile, across the whole Northern Tier of the United States from Oregon to Maine - a region that is declining economically - there is only one single state that stands out for its economic growth and that is New Hampshire.

Why?

Because New Hampshire has a long history of being a low-tax, conservative, pro-business state.

For decades, however, elite, liberal, Ivy League New Englanders laughed at New Hampshire as a nutty, right-wing enclave. Now thousands of those same snobs are moving out of places like failing Massachusetts and into New Hampshire for the jobs there.

And typically they are taking their politics with them and turning New Hampshire liberal. And they are starting the process of smothering the New Hampshire economy with the same ideas that have strangled the rest of the declining Northeast – more taxes, more regulations, more environmentalism, more encroachments on private property.

So looking at the nation as a whole, you have the declining North and inner cities, and the rising South.

Now look at the people who increasingly are controlling the declining Northern Tier.

Here are the states as of June 2008 with a Democrat governor and two Democrat US Senators: Washington State, Montana, Wisconsin, Michigan, New York State, Vermont, and Massachusetts. Sounds pretty Democrat, does it not?

But aren’t Democrats the party of “compassion” who want prosperity for everyone?

No, they are the party of economic decline and wealth redistribution from the middle class to the ultra-rich like the Kennedy family, John Kerry, Warren Buffett, Oprah Winfrey, Larry Ellison and other leftists who support Obama, and who want to stay rich. Obama will assure that they remain rich, and that is why they favor him. It's all about the money.

Just 30 years ago, places like New York State and Michigan were economic powerhouses with big middle classes.

Yet who would say that today these are places of jobs, growth and opportunity? Who would say that the national economy is migrating toward New York and Massachusetts?

Nobody would, because the people who actually live in these states know that the story is quite the opposite.

Meanwhile, in places like rural Montana and Oregon, Democrat environmentalist extremism is shutting down timber cutting, mining, ranching and other economic activities, impoverishing the people there.

Why are these states failing?

Because they are becoming more and more dominated by Democrat politicians and Democrat/environmentalist ideas.

In Michigan, the radical auto workers’ union in many cases drove the car companies out of town with confrontational tactics and unrealistic wage demands, and we can see this is still happening today. Ten years from now, the American auto industry will be hanging by a thread because it was threatened by the unions (or rather by organized crime, which ran the unions and which is an arm of the Democrat party) in the good times, and now is committed to paying unsustainable pay, benefit and retirement packages.

This is why more and more American workers, particularly in the South, are rejecting unions. Because unions oppose the interests of working people in favor of union bosses and organized crime. They destroy jobs by the millions and wealth by the trillions.

Why is even the huge California economy declining slowly but surely, when it once was one of the greatest economies in the world?

Because California today is utterly dominated by the Democrat party and its bureaucracy, that is why. Forget about “Republican” Schwarzenegger. He is a liberal.

Come up to wonderful Massachusetts, the most liberal state in the union, 85% Democrat legislature with virtually the worst business/economic climate in America, according to most objective economic analyses including Forbes magazine. Any honest economist will tell you that the two go hand in hand – liberalism and economic decay.

Wherever they come to power, Democrats slowly wreck economic prosperity. So today, when you see national stories about the suffering of Americans, high unemployment or rises in food stamp dependence, look for the link.

What is affecting the overall national statistics? Is it bad times in conservative Texas that are affecting the national statistics, or bad times in Michigan and Massachusetts and rural Oregon and in the inner cities?

Take a guess...

Is the decline in the New York State economy showing up in the national figures, and then being blamed on Bush?

Of course.

Did Hillary Clinton promise to help the people of rural New York State in her 2000 run for US Senate?

Yes.

Has anything changed since then?

Yes, things are much, much worse as New York State turns more and more Democrat.

Conclusion: Perhaps we can start having two measures of economic well-being.

We will measure it in Democrat strongholds (inner cities, liberal states), and then in places where conservative, capitalist ideas dominate, like the South.

And then we will start to see the real story about the “Two Americas”.



People who advocate socialism say they want to "help" people, that they "care about the poor". But this is nonsense. Socialists operate at all levels of society, from the ultra-rich (like Warren Buffett, who supports Obama) to the welfare poor. And the socialists who run the Democrat party from the ultra-rich to the middle class bureaucracy, want the three things that all liberals want:

A) Wealth for themselves;

B) Power over other people; and

C) A life of ease and pleasure.

Liberals love money more than any people in history. Just look at the zillionaires in Hollywood showing off their wealth like no group ever before in history. It is an obscene show of materialism. Just look at the liberal billionaires in New York and San Francisco and Silicon Valley and Martha’s Vineyard in summer, loving their wealth more than anything. Just look at how increasing numbers of rich people in America – well over 50% - describe themselves as liberal Democrats, as the national economy flounders and millions of good jobs go overseas.

Liberals love money! From the rich to the middle class. Think of the functionaries who work for the state and federal government. They are the best-paid people in the middle class. They have the best pay, benefit and retirement packages of all. They love to have: Money; power over other people; and a life of ease and pleasure. They produce less and work less than any other people in the workforce… except for other liberals like college professors, welfare recipients and public school teachers. In fact is it liberals who substitute ‘materialism’ for ‘prosperity’.

Prosperity is a good thing. It lifts all people up. Conservatives always have favored policies that promote prosperity. And one of the byproducts of prosperity is materialism, which is the placing of material wealth above all other forms of human striving.

The good conservative person, however, strives to make himself/herself better; strives to make the world better through his/her contributions; and shuns excessive material wealth in favor of a higher spiritual level of living where one truly is making the world better not by “letting the government help people” (the socialist way), but by building homes and churches and powerplants and furniture and cars to give people a better life. It’s called productivity.

Then liberals complain at every step. Typical...

Liberals, on the other hand, are in love only with money and a life of ease and pleasure. It was best illustrated by the 1960s when all the lazy hippies did whatever they felt like doing – usually not working – then acted as if they knew what everybody else should be doing. In other words, a life of ease and pleasure while having power over other people.


I got tired really..it's 1:12am...each sentence could be critized on it's own because it's hard to find anything here that isn't speculation or completely unrelated chain of events sewn poorly together with weak evidence and historical inconsistencies.

Atlantis75's photo
Thu 10/07/10 09:29 PM


not sure.
How are you not sure?


Ask yourself this question:

What is certain about women?

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silence...yeah, that' exactly my point.

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