I can see that once again the issue becomes one of whose interpretation is corrrect. The one post I saw that was saying like I am let us agree to disagree was excellent

A good theory will describe a large range of phenomena on the basis of a few simple postulates and will make definite predictions that can be tested. If the predictions agree with the observations, the theory survives that test, though it can never be proved to be correct."


Note to self I do think I said theories are ot in themselves proof. and you quote agreed thank you

I pop in here from time to time and see that most here want things to devolve into an onlight fight. I am a serious christain but have friends from all walks of life. each one has a world view that in many ways is uniquely their own. I see so many people religious and non religious alike who for some reason feel the need to "convinced" others that their own personal view ( even if it has many things in common with others view) has to be the one and only. I sincerely cannot comprehend this deep need to prove that your own view is the only one who is right. I look at the universe in awe and can see that there is room for all to look upon it in their own way and not make mine any less real to me. Science is an awesome thing but every legitamate sciencetific mind admits there are still so many unexplainable things in thie universe to prove we humans have barely scratched the surface. And any religious person who actually reads their owns texts can see God's ways are far beyond our understanding. I can not say what is the most correct since I admit my knowledge is finite and vastly inadequate to even attempt so. I am an educated person and have alot of knowledge both scienctifclt and religiously. I dearly love an honest discussion but at the end enjoy being able to agree to disagree. I feel nothing but love and respect for everyone. I understand most oragized religious prganization do not see things this way. I disagree in a large part with every one. Not because I feel they are wrong but because I understand that each one is some persons interpretation of what they believe their text means. Almost every side uses almost eaxactly the same passages to "prove" their point. On the scientific side they use theories, which are definted basicly as an educayed best guess, to prove that only they are right. Again I have no issue with this process but I do have an issue with completely ignoring any other point of view that disagrees with this theory. Many major break throughs have come from those who ignored the current theory. So to grab hold of anything and hold it to the exclusion of anything else is simple inconcievable to me. Even things that were thought proved have been disproved take Einsteins theories that completely revolutionized the understanding of physics of his time. So to me it seems both sides have a tendency to discount anything that does not match a persons own ideas. I like others admit I can and have fallen into the same trap. But I do try hard to step out of myself to see things as they are and not as I want them too. I search for the truth of things, and see the worlds only hope is for all to seek it as well. I know many people will jump in to "prove" i am wrong because what I say upsets their own personal apple cart. But as John Lennon sang Why can't we all get along?

It seems to me that your best bet would be to place your ad in various places in walla walla wa.

Maybe even on bulletin boards at local churches? Do you think they would allow you to post a description of your church on their community board? That would be interesting to see how that works out.

Would if I could find any. If you know of one here on some obscure board please let me know. But I did post it here to also discuss starting one here.
As to the question was Jesus gay, does it really matter? Per the bible jesus came for all, a word in the greek which indicates no eceptions. But the desire to prove he was or wasn't actually validates my main point that people disagree on doctronal points which men have developed from their or their leaders interpretation of scripture with little head for the meaning of the words in the orininal language, contempory meaning of the time it was writtiem, common usages of those words when written, the historical context of the word before it was written, and much more. Doctrine is just another man's guess at what he thinks God meant when he used the word. Most english words have a nuch broader meaning than the greek, for example there are 4 greek words translated love. each one caries a very different contextual meaning. Eros, physical love, sternos (sp) is familial love, philos is brotherly love and agape God like love. So as I repeatedly state arguing about a persons interpretation of an english word without a clue to the greek word used and its meaning is foolish, to use the said interpretation blindly adds even more to its misunderstanding. To take which ever interpretation you dislike and argue against it without a clue to if the greek words actually support the interpretation is less than wise as well. The whole point is people complicate religion with their own agendas, those for or agaisnt. I actually believe in science accept its truths, recognize its short comings and hope it continues to bring us more truth. I also believe in the bible as a way to spiritual truth. So to me I find it pointless to argue likle one has to be more right than the other. For you science buffs there is a group of scientist that believe in the bible and see the proof of God in science, I do not remember the name of the group. But since they can speak your language and I can't if you would have a serious discussion find them.

Ok this is my last attempt at getting the focus off the topics of proving who or what I or anyone believes is true false or in the middle. The orininal post I posted was to start a bible study/ home church in the walla walla wa area open to all who will accept each others as equals, specifically aimed at LBGT because at this time there is not a church or group who supports them here. It is not an attempt to convert anyone change anyone's belief system regardless. I made the mistake of answering someones feeling about science and the bible here I should have done this in private. I tried to explain all of the differences everyone keeps harping on are actually peoples interpretations or those of others they have heard about what the bible says or doesn't say. All that you are arguing, both for science and for the bible are irrevalant to the issue I wanted to address. I have tried to popint out that what ever faith assumption you follow wehter it is God was always here is here now and will always be here, or the same for matter which is the basic science faith assumption, it is still just that a faith assumption. I know science says look we can see back 15 billion years and matter was here. Ok what about 16 billion? can u see or prove it? No, can i see or prove god was here then, no. Pointless to argue either side when no proof exisit for either. Bible seeks spiritual truths and a way for all to find God. Science seeks truth in the physical world. But neither can prove the other wrong or right. They both use different methods of measurements. So let us all agree to disagree. At no point have I attempted to voice my own personal beliefs in either beyond saying I believe they are not exclusive. When I read scienctific things and I do I do not look for spiritual meaning in them, when I read spiritual things I do not seek scientific truths. My goal HERE is to simply provide a place for those who have hurets in their lives, no mater what the source, to have a place to feel loved and accepted without reservation or judgement for who they are. We ALL judge others by what standards we hold true I simply want to remove some of the standards I believe is false and in my own way help others see god loves them. Regardless of race, orientation, intelligence levels, doubts about him or the world or what ever other situation that fits your own status. I would hope that if you want to keep debating who is right or wrong you create your own thread because if not I will create a new one based on what I started this one for. If you do not feel you have any hurts or needs then I am happy for you because most of us do. SO please quit arguing doctines, hypothesis, evolution or creationism etc. To you science guys there is a version of creationism that believes evolution was part of God's grand scheme. Because as i have said when god says he loves the world, he does not mean just earth it would be better translated whole universe.So please help me get on topic again.
PS I am sure if you read this you can find any number of things to argue that in one way of another you believe or disbelieve that is the easy part. The hard part is to look beyond the words to what the idea is which is simply I see God as loving us all regardless.

Ok first and foremost I am not argueing to prove or disprove anything science or spiritual. After reading all the posts I also see as I have stated before most people resond to specific interpretation of wqhat biblical scripture means. Problem is few, if any, look into all possible interpretaions of the oringinal works in the oringinal lahguage. Sadly most who do come with pre defined answers they want to find. Very few take into account the myriad of factors that should be used to make an interpretation. For example one person here stated God wants you to "save your own butt". And admitidely most christians explain it that way. Sadly thye fail to see that most times when the save the world is used it breaks down to mean the whole of the universe. That in itself changes the true meaning of salvation. Plus the reward is not just saving your butt. There are many other rewards both here and in eternity. Men create doctrines which are at best just confusing. For example many say if some one who never has heard of, with the meaning here of had a understanding of not just some words spoiuted at someone, then they are doomed. Not true the bible makes it clear that those who live in the knowledge of God, no matter what name they apply to God, God will have a plan for them to be saved. I understand alot of the hurt and anger most have abput doctrine. Again I am not wanting any one to believe or disbelieve on God or science. I am trying to say that they are NOT exclusively incompatable. What I am saying and trying to convey is God loves you just how he made you. If you are a person who has to tie things together to see how they fit he has a way for you to see him in that. I would much prefer this be a forum to find people in my area who like me are marginalized by most churchs doctrines to see he loves us too. I should have replied privately to the person who has the scientific doubts because I am not one to try to convert people. It is not now nor will it ever be my responsibility. It is completly between them and God and he has a way to be seen by everyone no matter what method they follow. Be it scientific or other wise. I am going to suggest that the guy speak to people of science who are christian for answers to his question because they can explain it in his terms and I can not. As far as the "created" amoeba it did hot "live" ie reproduce and other wise until some already living material was introduced. In other words it had no signs of life even though it did become alive once they added life to it and put it in life. Back to my main reason for this post I am looking for those in Walla Walla wwa area who live an alternate type of life or not who want to begin a bible study/home church open to all as equals. Not to fix anyone of anything more than their brokedness and pains this world has placed on them. I am not trying to avoid all the issue brought up here, but to place them in proper perspective. They are doctrines of men created by their interpretations of what they or those they follow think the bible says. They hold no relevance to what is right. I respect science and as one said admire its search for truth. I am just adding that their may be truths science has no way at this time to measure.

Thats what i said in my very first post. Your objections are to various groups interpretations. Mreply was to your issue of which faith assumption you wish to believe. Which again is not the same as using scince or the bible to prove anything un provable by either

Ok I can see you firmly believe in your faith assumption. It is not my job to convine you to believe or disbelieve in mine. Your faith assumption is similary to mine. Yours is matter has always existed, exists now and will always exisit. Sadly you can not prove that statement since you can only hazzard a hypothisis of matter having always been here. But there are times you can not see in the past as hard as science has looked. We can see matter is here by the effects it has on us at each moment. But we can not prove it will always exisit. We can only postulate this. Arguing evolution over creationism is pointless because there are as many view of evolution in modern christianity that accept the progress we see recorded in time as there are not. My fiath assumption is God has always been here, is here npow and will always be here. A point i can not prove either. Hence the name faith assumption. Like matter I can see God is here now due to His affect in people's lives. Another point of interest, the Bible never claims to be a scientific description of the world but a spiritual one. People have tried to force the bible to be a scientific description both by christians and non christians alike. But point in fact the Bible only claims to speak to the spiritual world. It claims to be a way to know God and his love. You can attack it scientifically all day and still not prove science disproves the bible. Since science cannot measure the soul or spirit of any one. In fact to date science has not been able to creat life in a laborotory with out using some living matter to give it that spark I would say sience has failed to disprove the bible as a spiritual guide. Logic is a useful tool in studying science, but how can logic be applied to something that can not be seen or measured but can be felt by its impact on the world? As many do you are comapring apples to oranges and saying the apple is not an orange and you are right they aren't. So as i tell those who believe in creationism quit trying to argue oranges are apples. or vice versa

I am familar with MCC and actually have attended the founding church in west hollywood many times.

I thank you for your kind words. I understand not all believe as I do and respect their right to do so. But if you would like to discuss some of the things you disagree with I will be most happy to do so. I have that most of the time what peoplr disgaree about is most often some ones particular interpretation of biblical scriptures to prove a certain point of view. And in almost all cases only one of the several other possible interpretations. Fel fre to ask anything.
Kimi

Hi I am a 52 year old MTF TS. I am also a devout christian. I have a degree in Pastorial studies from a christian college. I am wishing to start a bible study open to gays, lesbians, bi, Trans and strait people. I live in walla walla wa. I have a place to hold the bible study that is private and can hold up to 25 to 30 people. It has a kitchen area. From this bible study I hope to build a chruch founded on the principle God loves everyone. I am seeking others in the Walla walla area to join and help me do this. I have pastored a chruch and helped as a leader at many, before I transitioned. I do not believe anyone neds fixed due to their gender or sexual choices. I do believe we all want to feel loved by our creator. If you could repost this any where it would help or email me where to send this I would appreciate. I am disabled and do not work so I am available any day or evening to do this. If anyone reads this and is interested please email me. Once you have contacted me via email I will give you my cell number. I am seeking serious people who want to help build a group based on God's love for all. Not built on hate, punishment, hell fire, or anything that is not based in God's love. I am also not seeking a group who only want to reach those "like" us. This is whats wrong with all churches that condemn us so why follow their ways? As I said I have a degree in Pastorial and Biblical Studies ( BS degree double major). again I want a group will to reach out to all who are broken hearted, marginized, dis illusion with a church who only wants those like them. I am not morally ambigous and take the bible as God's word. The bible is not the issue that seperates those who are marginalized by the predominate churches doctrine but man's interpretation of that book. Having read and studied extensively I have found most groups that exclude have chosen the harshest interpretations without regard for what it meant in Jesus' time or in the Greek. I can work with greek and hebrew helps and dig into the meaning of greek words that go far past the english words to their roots. So feel free to email me if this is something you would be interested in.