Guys, I'm going to try to help you here.

Christians are blind sheep.

-or-

Christians are divided.

You can use one of those insults, take your choice. You can't use both, they contradict one another. So I'm either a blind sheep or I'm a lone crazy Christian...to call me both is to call yourself an idiot and I don't want to see any of you guys insult yourself.

i enjoy the christian sins, so i better stay out of this one! lol

Nice. Christians are both, if you strictly follow what the churches say. Because they want you to be blind sheep and they are divided by different sects of Christianity, thus both terms are indeed true, even though contradictory. That's the way the churches like it and the way they keep the pews full.

If Christians were blind sheep, then there wouldn't have been the protestant reformation. If Christians were blind sheep, then we wouldn't have hundreds of denominations. If Christians were divided, international Christian councils wouldn't exist. Your position is logically flawed.

In one breath, Christians are insulted for thinking for themselves. In another breath, Christians are insulted for agreeing with one another.

Mind you, if church going Christians weren't blind sheep, wouldn't they all be protestants now? Christiany follows the bible, why do you need hundreds of denominations that interprete things differently?
Your position is logically flawed as well.

The churches are what's wrong with Christianity, they force what they "think" onto their followers, instead of letting their followers believe.

My position appears logically flawed, because you don't know Romans 14. Romans 14 teaches that each Christian will be moved to believe a worship differently. Some Christians will only worship on the Sabbath, some will worship any day. Some Christians will be vegan, some will not. Some Christians will only eat Kosher, some will not. All Christians should do what their conscience tells them to do.

A Christian should do only those things which they don't believe to be sins. If one Christian thinks that D&D is a sin, but plays it anyways, then it is a sin. If one Christian thinks that D&D isn't a sin, then it's not. Where the Bible doesn't clearly state X is a sin, then each Christian must do as his/her conscience dictates.

Christian denominations are largely composed of groups of Christians who are all moved to believe the same way by their conscience. Jesus wanted us to all belong to the same church and simply accept that some Christians feel different about some non-salvation issues, but many didn't understand that. So we have many denominations. Go to some Christian forums and you will see "I used to be a X, but the Holy Spirit moved me to change to an Y" Many Christians change churches as they grow and learn as Christians. Christians are told in scripture to test their beliefs...Christians are told by God "Come, let us reason together". A fundamental principle of Christianity is thinking and understanding the religion. Christianity is a simple religion, but there is a great deal of depth. As Christians grow in Christ, their beliefs change. This is a natural progression from natural to spiritual.

"Christianity is not a religion; it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

All denominatations claim to be infallible and have the final answer on every area of scripture.
The problem is no person is omniscient!.
No person is God.
Local Bible believeing independent churches with salavation by faith in Gods grace of Jesus final work of destroying the curse and removing the barrier between people and God.

God made man for relationship.
We are not to go through anyone else to get to God.
Jesus taught REALATIONSHIP. The whole Bible is about relationship with God.
Not watered down or through some priest, joining some church or vain repetition of some prayers to Mary or dead people."

Don't remember where I got that quote, but it nails my perspective on organized religion.

The mistake here is in thinking that words are absolute.

The word “Christian” is just that - a word. It has no absolute meaning. It means different things to different people. It’s just a label that people try to use to convey something about how they believe. Clearly every Christian does not believe precisely the same things. Therefore the word is no an absolute.

I know people who call themselves “Christians” who don’t even attend church. They actually denounce churches and organized religions. They use the term “Christian” to mean, “Follower of Christ”. And that’s a valid use of the label. Who can say they are wrong to use the label in that way?

I know people who call themselves “Christians” and who take a very abstract approach to reading the Bible. They view everything in the Bible as being allegorical or as merely a parable. They don’t take anything literally, and they necessarily believe that everything in the Bible actually physically happened, especially events in the Old testament. After all, since they see the Bible as being a collection of parables, to make moral points there’s not need to believe that those stories actually happened. They were just made up to make a point.

I know people who call themselves, “Christians” and who take a very literal verbatim approach to reading the Bible claiming that every single word it literally true and infallible. Fortunately those “Christians” are an extreme minority. They are often referred to as being ‘extremists’ because of the extreme claims they are required to make with this approach.

I know people who call themselves, “Christians” and who focus on the judgmental aspect of God, trying to make out like every little thing is a sin. These “Christians” are quite often very judgmental of others pointing out to other people that every little thing they do is a sin. They sin as being “absolute” and based on acts with little or no contextual leeway.

I know people who call themselves “Christians” and who focus on the non-judgmental love that Jesus taught. They believe that everyone’s relationship with God is private and that sin is indeed contextual and heavily related to circumstances. This is why they can go to war and kill an enemy without feeling like they are disobeying God and breaking his commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, because they understand that there are exceptions to all rules, and they believe that even God understands this contextual facet of rules and that no rule can be that absolute. They don’t pass judgments on others because they are fully aware of the fact that sin is contextual and since they can’t possibly know the full context of other people’s lives they aren’t in a position to judge people are their acts alone. These kinds of Christians are meek, humble, and do not attempt to tell other people how God might judge them.

I know people who call themselves “Christians” and who believe that it’s their job to proselytize Christianity and convert as many people as they possibly can to the religion.

I know people who call themselves “Christians” and who believe that it’s not their job to proselytize anyone. They believe Jesus when he said to only share his word to those who show interest.

People use the label “Christian” to mean many different things. Trying to suggest that this label has some kind of absolute meaning is foolhardy. Only “Christians” who are absolutists would do that. All “Christians” are no absolutists.

It’s just an abstract label that means that whoever is using it to label themselves, probably uses the Bible as their guide and that Bible include the New Testament. That’s about all that we can really know from the label “Christian”, after that we need to start asking the individual “Christian” how they believe.

So its really kind of silly to even talk about “Christians” as a single like-minded group of people. Just as it would be silly to expect any other word to have an absolute carved-in-stone meaning. All words, are nothing more than a means to convey ideas, and single words can have differnet meanings by the context in which they are being used. For example, you wouldn’t try to use a fork in the road to eat spaghetti with.

So to even attempt to talk about “Christians” as though that word represents a single group of like-minded people is ludicrous. People who call themselves “Christians” are just as diverse as everyone else. In the end they are just people.

nevermind

This probably constitutes a large percentage of the people who call themselves “Christians” in America. And this unorganized style of Christianity is probably the fastest growing group of “Christians”

Ironically, many “Christians” who believe in a more structured view of Christianity often reject these non-affiliated “Christians” as not being real Christians. Even “Christians” can, and often do, denounce other “Christians” who believe differently than they do.

Yet, when it comes time to ‘count’ the “Christians” everyone who is willing to check that box is accepted because they want to be sure to have the greatest numbers!

People often use the erroneous statistic that “Christianity” is the worlds largest religion. But that’s only because they count all possible denominations and beliefs that are willing to accept the label “Christianity” as one LARGE SINGLE GROUP.

Then they divide all other religions up into SEPARATE GROUPS!!!

In truth, there are more Pantheists in the world than there are Christians. The stats don’t show this because the Pantheists are all divided up into separate Groups. (i.e. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and a myriad of others). But that would be like separating Christianity into denominations and counting them as all as being separate religions.

So labels are actually misleading. In truth, the vast majority of humans on planet earth actually have a Pantheistic a view of God, not a Christian view of God.

So it’s really a lie when people use the stats to claim that the majority of the world’s population believe in the God of Christianity. It’s just not true. It’s an aberration caused by the way that stats our counted.

I'm not saying that this makes their God less valid. I'm just pointing out that the stats are misleading. Nothing more, nothing less.

GOD does this? Or you mean us humans divided us as a church... watch it here, your lack of knowledge might get you in trouble

Spider, I am sorry you feel insulted. I hope you can get past it and move on to the practice of your faith in a way that benefits you and others who share your views. It is a futile waste of your energy and time to attempt to defend all people who claim to be Christians. It is also futile to think that you can convince people to see and believe as you do. So ask yourself why it bothers you? Why do you take it personal? It is only a different point of view from a completely different person who did not walk the same path through Christianity as you did. Everyone has a reason for the way they see things and everyone sees them differently.

What you believe at this moment in time can change. How you see things can change. Who you are is not defined by what you believe at this moment. Who you are is not defined by your opinion. It is the ego who clings to these things. You should not be offended by what others think or say about Christianity. Christianity, as a religion, is not perfect and never has been.

Jeannie

hahaa me too..... If it wasn't a sin, would we enjoy it as much?

You are right Abra. I never want to be refered as a christian because I am not. We may read the same book. But it's meaning on how I believe is pretty foriegn to the christian...Blessings...Miles

Thanks for resurrecting this thread.

I wasn't insulted, quite the opposite. I was pointing out that anyone who makes those two contradictory claims, makes themself look stupid. I was encouraging each and every person who wishes to insult Christians to decide for themselves if we are divided or blind sheep. That way they don't contradict themself further down the line. I have noticed that a very large number of people use both insults and while it makes me laugh, but I know everyone would be better off actually thinking for themselves rather than parroting insults spoken by others.

The very mention that you think people wish to "insult" Christians" implies that you are insulted. Now you are saying your are not "insulted."

What looks "stupid" to you, does not look "stupid" to others. So if you want to call someone "stupid" just have the guts to do it and stop implying it covertly.

Christians are divided, that is very obvious. Some of them love to be called "sheep" and they love to call Jesus their "Shepard." I have seen this done openly in Churches.

When a Christian is considered "blind" is when they accept everything they are told without question even if it is unreasonable. They make excuses for it by calling "faith."
But they are placing their faith in their human leaders, not in God or Jesus. They may be considered "Blind Sheep."

Not all Christians are so blind, and you are right, that is why they broke away from the Catholic Church. That is why they broke into different Churches.

But that does not mean that all Christians have opened their eyes to the dogma of the Catholic Church or the dogma of their own Church. Some are still not seeing clearly. Some are partially blind. Many are waking up.

For you to say that these two thing are opposites and that it has to be "one way or another" is a stiff and ridged point of view, much like George Bush who says "You are either with me or against me." Or like some people who say "You are either good or evil.

Things are just not that black and white.



Jeannie

Not at all. My awareness that they are used as insults doesn't not require that I feel insulted. If I had felt insulted, then I would probably have brought it to the attentiion of the moderators who deal with that sort of thing.

And while some Christians could be called divided and some could be called "blind sheep", I think to call one Christian both is self-refuting. I have problems with the use of either term, because it implies a familiarity with another's thoughts and beliefs that anyone who would use those terms would probably lack about the object of those adjectives.

As people are responsible for their own anger, and their own happiness, so are they responsible for their own feelings of being "insulted."

You can't go running to the "moderators" every time someone says something you don't like or you might feel insulted by. That is childish. Even to threaten to take tell a "moderator" like you did to me (and others) is akin to a child who says "I'm gonna tell on you!"

Many people have been hurt by fundamentalist Christian doctrine and many have been hurt by the Church. Others have been saved by the Church from lives of lawless selfishness or drunken abandon, or self destructive behavior.

Some people are angry and hurt and they are breaking free of that monkey on their back that threatens them and belittles them and they may be lashing out at anyone who would attempt to put that monkey back on their back.

You do not know what they have lived. I do not know what you have lived. No body has walked in the others shoes, lived the others life.

Don't be like the ones who pretend to be victims of personal attack when someone lashes out at Christianity. It is not about you, Spider. It is about them and about their trying to heal their trauma and vent their anger. They have a point of view. It is valid. You may not like it. That is for you to deal with.

But you criticize everyone. You don't empathize or understand anyone's point. You simply get insulted, then you claim you are not. Why do you feel you must defend Christianity? Why do you feel you must defend yourself?

I know you feel that you are right and they are wrong. We have all been in that state of mind from time to time. So if you are really and truly right, you have nothing to defend. So stop defending. Just believe what you believe. Stop being offended.

Jeannie

Jeanniebean,

The rules are here to protect all of us. If I insult you, you should take it to the moderators. It's what they want you to do. The rules are there to keep the discussions civil.

I wasn't offended or insulted. I'm not offended that you insist that you know my mind. You do not. You don't know where I have been or what I have experianced. Why not take me at my word?



Blanket statements about someone whom you don't understand in the least.

I wasn't mad when I made this post. I wasn't mad when I made the OP. I'm done talking about how I wasn't mad.

Would you have be feel insulted personally to defend another? I know that the attacks against Christianity have driven people from these forums...people who simply wanted peaceful conversations about religion. People who weren't here to force their beliefs on anyone. People who were hurt because they felt hated. I find it strange that so many here profess love for all humanity, but recklessly hurt the feelings of others. I point that out, because sometimes we need to have our failings pointed out to us. If you still believe that I am or was mad about those silly insults, that's your business.

Have a good evening.

I barely know my own mind, let alone profess to know anothers...

I suspect, and I could be wrong, (being partially mindless and all)..that it may be possible, the blanket statements that are made up there, Spider, regarding sight impairment, and the divisionary thing..are just that...blanket statements, and those good ole opinion things...


I really dont want to make up my mind, I dont enjoy made up anything, I prefer reality, even if it is only my mindless one..