circumstantial evidence, overwhelming or otherwise.... still is not proven no matter how strong your faith of the matter is.

christians feel the same way about their faith "its fact" the evidence is "overwhelming. I know it is hard to except that we dont know everything but we dont.

Sorry charlie- believe what you will, it is when you say that something is true that you lose me, you yourself said until we turn back the clock---aint gonna happen.


doc

Hey Turtle, hope all is well.

Have to disagree in a few areas. I think "most" is theory and speculation on human part.

Yes, there are certain things we actually know of what exists now. However to even attempt to place "datelines" going back, millions, billions and trillions or years is simply obserd in my book. It is simply impossible to estimate, comprehend, or try to guess what could have happened in the universe at any given time.

Humans have only began to have any real kinds of study and knowledge over the last 100 years or so, with most "tech" things, like the radio telescope you describe, maybe the last 50 or 60 years and this is from the beginning of human existance.

So to say we have any true "knowledge" of what has happened and what is really going on in the universe...well its rather bogus from any logical standpoint.

Humanity knows so little of and about what is out there. We are starting to learn a few things, granted. But most is "theory" or simple "speculation" at the very best from any standpoint, including my own.

I'm not saying you have to believe, but we are in fact measuring the exapansion and piecing together the facts with the math, which fully supports the big bang. Not too many astro physicists argueing against the big bang either. Not a matter of simply faith, but believe what you will, I'll stick with science;^]

Theory is NOT speculation, see hypthosis for speculation. Read the link, the evidence is there;^]

I never said "theory" was "specualtion". i said it was either "theory" OR "specualtion" and that was about "most" things, not "all things" in the universe.

And again, to try to state something happened about "5 billion years ago" is not even close to logic. There are simply way too many "unknown factors" in such a time span of something we (as humans) don;t even have any real clue of yet. So that I refer to as "specualtion" and in my opinion, its not even "reasonable speculation" when looking at such a timeline of somethng like the "universe".

We can't even solve our own simple educational problems in our country, yet we know how the univers works and what happened millions, billions and trillions of years ago to something that is some 130 billion light years away??? What's wrong with such a picture?

Again, big bang is not speculation, which would be a hypothisis in the scientific field. It's a theory, which means it's backed up by evidence and mathmatics. There's tons of evidence about the big bang, but don't believe it if you don't want to, still the fact remains nearly all astro physicists support the big bang. Einstein famously tried to measure the retraction of the universe to find it was expanding, faster & faster, and if big bang theory had been around then he suely would have been behind it as Stephen Hawking is today and Carl Sagan was inbetween;^]

I count "big bang" as a "theory" not speculation. I never said it was not a theory.

And we can use Einstein here as well. Einstein stated himself towards the end of his life, that he believed there must be a "master designer" to all of this (referring to this world and the universe). he did NOT refer specifically to "God" or a "God", but as a "master designer", meaning someone/thing planned and designed what everything we see is. I happen to concur with that theory of Einstein.

Again, mine is just a theory and my belief. Not saying its "fact" of "absolute". Simply the most reasonable logical estimation of what all this stuff is about. because I'll be the first to admit, I don't really know "jack".

again, it is not proven, so call it theory or hypothesis or even speculation.

and now we are to believe that we are measuring the expansion of something that has to date been immeasurable? I know about the whole "they are farther apart" crap, but who is it to say that its just not some great cyclical orbt that we know nothing about because we havent been studying/watching long enough. we ourselves are but a hair width on the timeline of all that is(my belief) the universe didnt start when we came to being.

turtle i kn ow you think your smarter than most, and you very well could be, but you are not the definative closer man on all that is, many Theories on life- yours and the scientists are but only one. its like your are part of your own "fanatical right/left" organization whom believe it is your way or no way.

on a brighter note;
forge- i never did answr your question, i dint know about the dark stuff, but my own personal belief, is that no matter how it all started for us, something created the crap that started it.


peace


doc

again, it is not proven, so call it theory or hypothesis or even speculation.

and now we are to believe that we are measuring the expansion of something that has to date been immeasurable? I know about the whole "they are farther apart" crap, but who is it to say that its just not some great cyclical orbt that we know nothing about because we havent been studying/watching long enough. we ourselves are but a hair width on the timeline of all that is(my belief) the universe didnt start when we came to being.

turtle i kn ow you think your smarter than most, and you very well could be, but you are not the definative closer man on all that is, many Theories on life- yours and the scientists are but only one. its like your are part of your own "fanatical right/left" organization whom believe it is your way or no way.

on a brighter note;
forge- i never did answer your question, i dont know about the dark stuff, but my own personal belief, is that no matter how it all started for us, something created the crap that started it.


peace


doc

Some have mentioned that the universe will eventually colapse back on itself but according to what I saw last night the universe is still expanding at an ever accelerating rate. The galixies are moving farther away from each other at an increasing rate. They attribute this to the force of Dark Energy.

Then one must remember also that the information that is gathered from the light at the far reaches of our own galixy is billions of years old. What we see no longer exists.

They try to account for the missing mass in the universe by calling it Dark Matter and there is another theory called the String Theory that says there are 27 (and I could be wrong on that number) parallel universes that exist along side ours that account for the missing matter in our universe.

In regard to other big bangs, space is infinite, so is it possible that elsewhere at incomprehensible distances other big bangs have taken place but they are beyond the range of our ability to detect them and so far away that light from them has not reached this galixy yet.

Actualy I believe in God, creator of all. Notice I've never said big bang was law, but it is in fact very close, Einstein was very close in measuring what turned out to be the expansion. Of course, I posted the link http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html which goes into some of the specifics, but big bang appears to be an astro reality which could only happen once per universe. So again, I'm not telling anybody they have to believe it, but the facts we do have point to the big bang, the further in space we see the further in the past we see. If you couldn't tell, I'm a big fan of astro science;^]

Hmmm, I'm not sure you understand what big bang is, multi big bangs in a single universe would mean a secondary universe inside of this one, it's a paradox. Also, string theory is no more it is now evolved into m theory, which predicts an infinite number of universes intersecting and colliding forming new universes through a "big bang". Yes, the universe is still expanding (though dark matter/ energy is still in the hypothisis stage), but we gather the retraction by that fact. Nothing lasts forever in this world;^]

I understand. I'm not saying the big bang didn't happen, it probably did, because of the evidence of it probably did. And I believe it was part of a "grand design", just as the earth, with volcanos and movement of land mass changes over time. Same with space.

And those things I refer to as "specualtion" is like stating rediculous time lines..like "5 billion years ago". There are simply too many "unknown variables" that could have happened in such a time span.

I can easily admit, you know far more than me in the space knowledge...I simply do not know much..barely any basics. I look more at "logic" and "reason" to attempt to put the puzzle together.

I believe the latest estimate was that the universe is 14 billion years old, but that indeed can go the other way though it probably is somewhat accurate given the measurements taken. heh, sometimes logic is the opposite of the truth when it comes to space reality, black holes were once anything but logical yet now they are a fact. Space is a weird and strange place, quantum mechanics are even stranger, makes a curious mind like mine very busy..lol;^]

Tutrtepoet: I am not sure anyone understands what "big bang" was that was my original question. In order for the big bang to occur, something had to blow up, what was that something? Something has to become so energetic that it's gravity could no longer contain the energy of the reaction and "boom" there was an explosion. That took a finite amount of matter under a certain set of circumstances.

If the "m" theory says that there can be an infinite number of parellel universes, then there must be an infinite amount of matter.

Gardenforge - this is a good thread.
Kind of a hoot too...

Verb

Actually you are all wrong...sorry...but it was Al Gore that invented the Universe...this comes from very reliable sourses, the same ones that made up the whole global warming phenomena.

Big Bang: god farted....

I love the "The Universe" series. It is fascinating stuff. Surely one of the better programs the channel has run in quite awhile.