I'm going to get this out of my system and then try to stay out of religious discussion on this website because I've wasted too much of my life on the subject. So I'm just gonna write everything down at once and hope it comes off as somewhat coherent.

Before I start I would just like to say that there are certain issues that are, and should be, important to non believers. (though I am Canadian, some of these American issues I do watch with interest) Things like keeping the separation of church and state, defeating the revisionist history bill House Resolution 888, making sure abortion is available for all who choose it, Stem Cell research should continue without government intervention and pressure from the religious right and keeping intelligent design out of science class and put it in religion class, which I'm not opposed to, where it belongs. In fact, I'm sure a lot of these things are important issues to some Christians too. My dad, a Christian, agrees with me on all the above issues. Thus, while these are important to non believers, I feel they are more political issues than anything else. What I am talking about here refers to debating the specifics of the bible, whether or not there's a god etc.

I am someone who doesn't believe in god. I went from a Christian to an atheist (please note that while i refer to myself as an atheist in this post, I'm liking the term less and less as I find it counter productive to identify myself with a negative.) It didn't happen from reading Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens, it was a gradual, personal thing that just sort of happened as the result of personal reflection and research. However despite this I became very involved in religious debate on several forums, youtube, that sort of thing. After doing this for a time longer than I'd like to state, I've come to the conclusion it was all a waste of time.

Here's why, first of all, when I was a Christian, there was no one, I repeat, NO ONE, that could have convinced me there was no god, something I had forgotten when I had been caught up in these debates. As I stated before me and me alone caused me to leave Christianity. I never read any atheist book or looked into typical atheist rhetoric until years after I stopped believing, perhaps the fact I am fairly young plays a part in that but nonetheless, atheist rhetoric was something I started reading about years after I became an atheist. I believed in all the miracles of the bible and that Jesus died for my sins and all that stuff.

The other side, of course, is that my atheism was also not a conscious choice. I actually tried to regain my faith when I realized I didn't believe any more. I couldn't do it. While I have accepted my non belief, no argument could possibly get me to convert to any religion even if I wanted to. I would be asking too many questions and as soon as it involved the supernatural, I just wouldn't be able to believe in it.

generally what I've found is that every religious debate eventually deteriorates to the same issues, same arguments, same topics, dead horses are beaten, everyone leaves a little pissed off and nothing is resolved.

Don't get me wrong, religious fundamentalists scare the hell out of me, but debating them is absolutely pointless as they will not budge on their position. Living around non fundi Christians all my life has made me feel that so what if the believe in god, other than that one issue that I find weird they're perfectly normal people, and never mention religion if they know no one else wants to talk about it. And religious fundamentalists scare the hell out of a lot of them to. And even if I wanted to debate them, I wouldn't be able to change their minds either as their faith is pretty strong too. If you believe the polls, religion is in decline around the world anyway, except of course in backward places like Saudi Arabia.

so ya, I think I've said all I want to say.

useless to debate hell its useless to talk about it and all that nonsence you put too.

So you think that because YOU believe all those things are right, everyone should just fall in line with you? Sorry, but you are wrong...without debate, on any subject, no one would ever hear any opinions but the ones they agree with...and you are wrong on several of those things you state should be important to non-believers. JMHO.
Jim

I like the way you write, you're a very intelligent person. Although my past would dictate me having a falling out with faith, I am and have always been a firm believer in Christ. It's definately a personal thing, and the fact you are not ignoring everything about religion shows you are not just another ignorant person, you are someone real.

I am not a hugely religious person, I do not follow the Bible to the letters nor am in the business of converting non-believers.

I respect you for your views, though you lost your faith and for that I am truly sorry, I wish you well in life and want you to know Christ will still watch over you.

life does go on after death, an out of body experience will confirm this, but certain religions were neccessary to control the masses, it just backfired and you have what's happening today, like guns-n-jesus through-out this country, you don't believe what i believe, i kill you in the middle east. then,.... there's greed.

Well there's 3 different christians, well, in my opinion. You have the true believers, that no matter what is said, will follow the bible and what their churches feed them. Then there are progressive christians, they believe in God and most of the bible, but don't totally push the radical true believers beliefs. Then there's the quiet christians, these people believe in God, and try and live their lives as the best christians they can.

True believers you can't have a debate with, cause no matter what, they're right.

Progressives hold true to what they believe, but will debate civilly with anyone about most topics.

Then the quiet christians, they are up for just about any debate and generally are the most interesting to debate with. They usually can see many different views on certain subjects, and are very civil, even when they disagree with your views.

Sadly though, most fall under the true believers, and cannot be debated with.

That's not fair, I never said that.

wow, what a breath of fresh air you are! couldn't have searched for those words better.

I try sometimes. But I grow weary of people that believe what they're told and have no beliefs they feel. Lemmings are annoying lil buggers.

To me, faith IS natural. The fantastic is for hollywood. I understand all that you have said. For me, it was organized religion that killed my faith. Then, as I remembered things from the bible as they applied to my life I found out how real and how simple having Christ was. He dwells in all good things AND heals AND speaks through others, but the money in America corrupted the purity of it all.

I am glad you are true to yourself, I dont think many people face it the way you do. I am a creationist myself, but hate to even call myself christian as the label of such is now culturally shallow and corrupt.

God bless, Ti

flutter angels for christians,
baby bats for goths,

THIS is the religious arrogance that sucks RIGHT HERE. Brian wanted to share and you just ARROGANTLY spout off. You embarass yourself and shame your own beliefs.

Even if your not "religious", have some respect.

a belief is just that...a belief, without believers this world would come to a crashing halt.

Oh yea and Skeptical, your beliefs are yours, don't be ashamed of them and don't let others put you down for what you do and don't believe. You can believe whatever your heart desires and nobody should be able to change that.

ay, yah, believe

Reluctantly, I have come to the same conclusion.

And the sad part is that we have quite a few here, on all different sides of the issue, who are truly interested in intelligent discussion and an exchange of ideas.

But there are a few who simply will not allow this to happen -- they insist on name-calling, on proselytizing, on jamming their beliefs down everyone's throats, while boo-hooing and claiming they're being "attacked" if someone has the audacity to disagree with them on the most minuscule point.

It's hard to have an actual discussion with someone who (apparently) is conviced they KNOW EVERYTHING and are ALWAYS RIGHT, and who has no qualms about creating their own "facts,"
out of nowhere, should the (perceived) need arise.

The name of the forum is "Religion Chat." If we could just get back to that, instead of "Everybody Has To Believe Everything I Say And No One Is Allowed To Disagree With Me" Chat, maybe we could have some interesting DISCUSSION here....

hey, to not believe is a belief, really... well what's the debate if there is nothing to debate about?

Maybe I should not have emphasized the "you". for that I appologize. The words in quotes below were what I took exception to. That to me sounds like a statement that says "this is what I think, therefore it is right." I was not neccasarily talking about the religious aspect of anything. I am personally against abortion as a means of birth control...I think you are wrong on that. You have a right to disagree, I have no problem with that. It would take way too much time and space to debate everything on here. Since you can't hear a persons tone of voice on-line, maybe my statement did come out sounding arrogant, but it was not meant that way.

Quote: "Before I start I would just like to say that there are certain issues that are, and should be, important to non believers. (though I am Canadian, some of these American issues I do watch with interest) Things like keeping the separation of church and state, defeating the revisionist history bill House Resolution 888, making sure abortion is available for all who choose it, Stem Cell research should continue without government intervention and pressure from the religious right and keeping intelligent design out of science class and put it in religion class, which I'm not opposed to, where it belongs."

I was not trying to say that these things are right because I believe them to be so. What I was trying to say is that while these are things that a lot of non believers feel strongly about, they are more political issues than religious issues, and thus are different from debating the semantics or accuracy of the bible.

That's the bottom line right there. People always twist your words. And you're right debating religion is utterly silly, that's why I never bother to do it. I just point out that it's all wrong.

No debate necessary.