For the same reason it is called pro-choice and pro-abortion, shouldn't it be called pro-choice and anti-choice, when people want things to look negative they add a negative spin on them.

Just because I defend personal responsibility in each person male or female does not make me bitter or angry. I have a great love of all humans. I get confused by the great reverence for a story book of old stories. So I ask. But that still doesn't make me bitter. I would think referring to others as the anti christ could be considered a little more bitter than me wanting all to be responsible for themselves.

Dragoness

Oh your lord, here we go. All the men in the world who cannot get pregnant will jump on the bandwagon to tell a woman what to do with her body It is none of your business man. How many times do people have to go through this? You want abortion to stop, teach your sons and daughters to use birth control. Wear condoms every time you have sex. Give your sons salt peter in their meals.

NOT BITTER....hummmm

You said that to Dragoness?



You are funny

Religious fanatics are against birth control. They won’t hear of anything other than abstinence.



Sounds like hitting below the belt to me.

The real irony in all of this is that there are probably just as many young Christians having unwanted pregnancies as anyone else. Seems to me that it’s not even a religious issue. More like a humanitarian issue.

I think we should tie everyone’s tubes at birth (both male and female) and only untie them when they are legally married. That way we could all have sex until we’re blue in the face with no worries about unwanted pregnancies.

No need to feed our kids salt peter. Just let them go out and HAVE FUN!

Make LOVE not BABIES!

abra, I guess you're not well informed about religious fanatics. we don't profess to be 'perfect' but saved. I would like to know what your 'Belief System' states about moral issues on having an abortion. At least I can quote my beliefs from a book. You are a teacher from books and have developed your 'Belief System' on what you have read....so have we.
In 1Corinthians 1:27 (and I know you hate quotes) it is written; 'GOD has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, & GOD has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty'. and your 'Belief System' says what about this?
T mie

When I read this I think about the fact that Christianity is the predominant religion in the world. That makes them very mighty.

So many Christians seem that they know everything because they know about the Bible - That makes them look at themselves as wise

So yeah I would have to agree with the quote

I think too many christians forget that judgement of others is a sin, just as bad as any other.

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

Too many christians forget that rule.

Not the least bit bitter. I was making a point. Most of the battles over abortion happen in a man verses women scenerio. Man has been getting by with making us women the control of his genitals and we should not be. I was making the point go home for you guys. Or at least I hope it goes home

I am glad to amuse you

I have found through experience that if a man thinks about ingesting salt peter he tends to think a little longer about his sexual activities especially unprotected sexual activity. It was just to make a point. I brought up a very sexually responsible son. He has sex but he wraps it no matter whether she says she is on birth control or not. He is responsible for his own gentalia and what it produces, know what I mean?

Well, this is clearly a complicated issue, let there be no doubt about it.

I am personally not ‘for’ abortions morally speaking. However there are instances when I feel they are warranted, such as in cases of rape, and for medical reasons.

I think they are totally inappropriate solely as a means of controlling ‘unwanted’ pregnancies from irresponsible sex. In other words, it would be highly immoral to use an abortion in leu of a condom, or even because a condom had failed.

My own ‘personal’ morality is not to have sex with any woman that I would not be willing to spend the rest of my life with, or at least take the responsibility of raising any child that my be a product of that sexual activity.

That’s my own ‘personal’ morality.

I don’t vote my morals into law however and legal issues are an entirely different matter. From a pure legal stance I view the mater from a more ‘pragmatic’ point of view. And that is simply that the law should not dictate morality. It gets murky, and I’ll be the first to admit that. I agree that the masses do tend to look to the law for their morals (unfortunately). They see things that are legal as having been ‘condoned’ by the government (meaning that’s it’s perfectly ok to do them), and things that are illegal as having been ‘condemned’ by the government (meaning that it’s not ok to do them).

It really quite sad that people do view their government in this parental way because it’s really not the government’s place to instill moral values into the people. The purpose of the government is to protect its citizens.

So from a purely governmental point of view when does a fertilized egg become a ‘citizen’ of the state?

If it is at the moment of conception, then the mother’s womb become housing for the new ‘citizen’ and would automatically fall into the category of being a ‘dwelling’. That opens a whole can of legal issues, “Should there be a womb tax”. Does the government then have the right to send “building inspectors” (obviously in this case doctors) to check out the ‘housing’ conditions of the new ‘citizen’?

Can the government then say what the mother should be aloud to eat, drink, and inhale during the pregnancy. Does the ‘plumbing’ of her body become subject to standard utilities inspections?

You might think these are crazy ideas, but that’s where it leads if we truly want to consider a fetus to be a full-fledged citizen of the state.

How far do we push it?

Do we need to draw the line at a fertilized egg? Can we allow a ‘symbiotic’ period in the early development when the mother could abort prior to a certain state of fetal development???

These are very complex questions. And when it comes to morals I could tell you what mind are based on a case-by-case scenario. But that’s what I would personally do if it was my decision.

Like I say, when it comes to putting my morals into law, I’m very hesitant. I would probably opt for the longest ‘symbiotic’ stage possible where a mother would be within her right to abort for any reason she deem appropriate. I would be extremely opposed to drawing that line at the fertilized egg or very early stages of a pregnancy. In later stages of fetal development the reasons would need to be substantial.

Clearly once the child has been born and the umbilical cord has been cut, then the child is an ‘individual’ citizen of the state and abortion and pregnancy questions are no longer an issue at that point.

So yes, I agree that would be ‘immoral’ for me to expect to use abortion just as casual birth control. I personally would not condone an abortion for that reason alone. If you aren’t prepared to deal with a pregnancy then don’t get pregnant in the first place even if that boils down to abstinence.

But again, my morals are not laws.

I agree. Everyone should be that way.

I'm not so concerned about it, because I only have sex with women that I would be willing to raise a child with anyway, so for me personally there can be no such thing as an 'unwanted' pregnancy.

And this has always been true for me throughout my entire life.

So I guess the topic really doesn't even apply to me personally. I would take full responsibility for any pregnancy that I was responsible for.

The only potential for a question of abortion in my case would be one where their were medical problems involved. If there were medical problems involved and the woman who was pregnant with my child wanted to abort I would not contest her. I would give my consent.

Not to imply that I wouldn’t discuss it, or that it would be a snap decision. I’m just saying that if after everything had been considered if the woman still wanted to abort, my stance is, - its HER body and HER decision. She’s the one who is in a symbiotic relationship with the fetus. Not me.

abra, wow, that was hilarious and enlightening all at the same time. I will not allow inspections by government officials of my plumbing though

Great narrative there

More men need to think like you do. I always "assumed" the men in my life felt this way but I found out too late they did not feel this way. Sex for the purpose of sex was what they were about, or at least that is the conclusion I have to come to as they do not tell enough of the truth to get a better conclusion. But they were uncaring of the possibility of pregnancy and did not care to protect themselves. I got pregnant through every form of birth control I used until I got a tubal ligation. But it was hell to have to choose what to do even when I was doing all I could not to get pregnant ie birth control. I was using birth control and "assuming" the men were of your mindset but alas I have three kids today. I love them do not get me wrong but their lives could have been so much better with a loving father in their lives.

I like the story. Of course I'm kind of corny... the Beatles said it with fewer words for me:

"Money can't buy me love"

You know... I really liked the story also...

I wonder though, tomie, what do you perceive it's value to be?

Thank you creativesoul & anoasis. I was begining to think no one liked the story. I guess we could draw a few values from the story. I find a display of covetousness, greed, envy, obsession, & innocense. But those are just my thoughts. Care to share yours?

Don't forget at all costs blame the servant for not getting your way and use blood letting/death of another as an acceptable frustration release.