To the wouldee...

WHATEVER

interesting post you however take this much deeper than i was intending it to go... Am i saying all of them should be delt with the same? By no means, but i am saying that, what people become starts with a choice, the rest is how you want to live.. Most serial killers dont see this as wrong, Most alcholics dont see drinking as wron, most gays dont see this as wrong.

No i have not heard of this person

2 cities were filled with homosexuals...

Again you missed my point of what they have in common. The point i clearly stated was about choices, not punishments, i dont see why this is being taken out of its tended purpose

ok. i'm a messianic jew so let me inform u of a few facts. jews make covenants not just for marriage or even for "marriage" types of love. that particular pact of giving of each others robe signifies that they are part of each other , like joined in one purpose. it is not the type of contract that two people in an affectionate/sexual relationship would be in. that would be an exchange or gift of jewels and livestock. an exchange of clothing is like a partnership. its like an "ive got your back gesture"

with that being said i support gay marriage being bi myself just to inform u this is not the covenant david had with jonathan. jews take marriage covenants very very seriously and are very specific steps and covenants made when a marriage occurs. and none of these are outlined here.

So it's ok in the eyes of God for Lot of offer his daughters for the men of Sodom and Gomorrah to rape? So it's ok in the eyes of God for Lot's daughter's to get their father drunk, rape him, and bare his children? But it's so horribly wrong in the eyes of God for one to be a homosexual? Believe what you want to believe, but I choose to believe that the Holy Bible is a spiritual book with spiritual lessons to be learned, but it was written by the hands of imperfect men. One of those men who commissioned the King James Version translation, King James I, was a homosexual himself. It is well documented that he Was a bisexual. Now why would a bisexual King commission a project to translate a text that would allegedly condemn his very sexual preference? I suggest those who are interested read thoroughly the following website... http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/kingjames.html It's rather informative.

Very interesting... thank you!

your quite welcome. and yes the info about the king james version is correct. it is one of the most inaccurate versions of scripture out there next to the NIV. the only way to understand scripture is to read direct hebrew to english translation. many words used in the king james and the hebrew the definitions dont even match. the king james version of the bible was published for purely political purposes. remember the time frame we're talking about here. this is when the catholic church ruled most of the civilized world and religion and politics were the same thing. jewish text is the only true scripture. it is pure and unblemished and un"manipulated" by the hands of man, church and politics.

Just because the names of 2 cities come down to us as Sodom and Gomorrah does not mean that was the reason for thier destruction by fire.lot was allowed to live amoung them but he saw and heard thier evil as Peter says. If you look at the angels when they came to abraham he ran to them to humble himself before them and treat them well. He also after the slaughter of the kings went to salem to give the king tithe. The king of Sodom came also and wanted to give to Abraham instead of Yahweh. Abraham would have nothing of it. Then on to Lot he did the same thing he went to the angels and told them to come to his house and he would humble himself and wash their feet and feast with them. The people wanted the angels they knew who they were. They did not want them thier because of thier evil and hatred and self indulgence. Lot offering his daughters. yahsua was from Yahweh. So was these angels. No better friend is thier than one who would die for you. You were to protect your brother who was in your house. yahshua said if you did not hate.I would say put 1st your family or anyone before him he would have nothing to do with you.This is why he would offer his daughters. Lot in 2peter is called Rightous.Him offering his daughters up was no different than Abraham offering up issac for yahweh. knowing Yahweh can do anything. We have to choose him. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is no different than the sins that are before us now. Not just Homosexuality. That is a small part. What is important to see is the golden rule again was used here. love Yahweh with all your heart and treat your brother as yourself. These 2 cities did not do this. they do as we do now..me..me..me... blessings..Miles

I get your point totally KalamazooGuy87, and those people would probably not understand either, the association between you, and let say, ...

Idi Amin Dada,
Hitler,
Saloth Sar AKA Pol Pot , and
Genghis Khan

Sanguinary authors of some of the most gruesome genocides of our times.

Like you, these people considered themselves 'more worthy' of being human, than some specific 'other humans' of their choice.

And so there is the 'choice' thing that associates you to these sanguinary killers. Your reasons, or their reasons for those 'discriminatory' choices against others matters little.

But of course you haven't committed genocides that we know of, so you wouldn't be up for the same punishment, always following your line of thought.

So your associated to Idi Amin Dada, Hitler, Pol Pot, and Genghis Khan strictly based on your shared CHOICES of unfounded discrimination against others. But very clearly you don't deserve the same punishment as they do.

While I'm sure you will get this association KalamazooGuy87, I doubt others will.

Because we know your intended purpose was to impugn as psychotic behaviour that which you feel infringes on your religion but is NOT against the civil law of this country. It's a debating tactic known as 'poisoning the well' and if you tried a similar tactic in a court of law, the judge would admonish you to stick to 'just the facts.'

You could just as well say that people who don't honor the Sabbath are similarly wrong. Were you to equate _them_ to psychotic killers in the same way you have done here with homosexuals, you would deservedly get flack for being a religious fanatic.

-Kerry O.

Heather rae,
Thank you for being a first hand witness to the context as no other has established for the truth to be known here







Lady,

When my posted answer was, " NOPE" , and you responded "WHATEVER" , please note that I was merely answering your first question in your first remark that opened this thread. SIMPLE

I believe I just threw up a little in my mouth.

I can not understand why anyone in their right mind would allow their own children to be raped in the name of their god. Miles, do you have children? Do you mean to honestly tell us that if you were placed in Lot's situation, you would offer your children to be raped by a town full of men all in the name of your god?

You know some pretty horrible things have been done in the name of the Christian God as has already been pointed out. Now I'm not saying that one can't worship as they want... but where is the line drawn between worship and cruelty and insanity?

Just had to answer this before I finish reading the posts.

YES, I met a girl in 7th grade - she took my heart. I have never loved so purely as with her. But in those days the only thing worse than being a atheist was being a homo!

I love her still, but I'm a lesbian and she is not. But I will love her till I have no thoughts and no memories left.

I often wonder if I will ever find another to love like that. It is NOT the same kind of love we give to our neighbors or our friends. There is no comparison in the bonds of friendship and the deep all encompassing love that is totally not in our command.

This my friends, is the difference between the vision that the words homosexual, gay, and lesbian seem to inspire and the vision that the word LOVE inspires. Even using the words same-sex, makes it about the physical. LOVE is about the inspired, not the physical.

If we begin to rule all the characteristics of humans that we feel we shouldn't have to accept - how long do you think the list would be, before YOU were not an acceptible creature in our midst?

LadyValkyrie37

I understand what you are saying. But look at the contect of what i was saying. Sex was not much of the reason those 2 cities were destroyed. This is not what was being conveyedhere. This is just what has been handed down as tradition. Lots daughters lived in this community. Lot knew exactly what the crowd wanted and it was not his daughters. They wanted to destroy athority which they knew the 2 angels had. They may not of known what they were thier for but they knew it was not for thier good. They wanted to kill them and Lot knew it. Even though you can not kill an angel. Lot knew Yahweh's laws. Do you see Yahweh as offering up his son to death as a murderer? Do you see Abraham offering up Isaac as the same. Is a woman better than a man? Whatever happened thier he knew that if he did what Yahweh expected then he had nothing to fear. We live in that same Sodom and Gomorrah today. Homosexuality being a small part. The big part is are u justified in walking past someone who needs help and you do nothing when you could of helped them. Whether u knew them or not. Yahshua talked about this very thing often. We are stuck in a society that does not believe they need or is a Elohim that created all things. Or will come through with his promices. We have become a slave nation. The rich making the poor poorer. Pretending they are doing something to help. medicare reform. Is that helping the poor. Or are they poorer because of it wile the rich have all they need and can not get enough. Celebrities out of control seeing how much they can have. Thier is your real sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. Hating anyone who may take power from you. Taking all u can from the poor.Because of our hatred for Yahweh's word our legal system is built on power. If u have enough money u can do whatever u want. Our laws have went rampant. People say I am not a legalist. Wake up and smell the butter u are swarmed with man made laws that defy Yahweh's laws and you accept it as good. many empires have fallen when everything goes and social status is everything. Why do you think the Muslims hate us? You are abhored by thier way of justice and they have strayed also. But on the outside looking in when they call us the great satan. They have reasons for it. Europe is run amuck also.We are a young country built on laws right out of the bible. Simple laws. We are throwing them out everyday. The Elite does not like them they want more power. Lawyers make our laws. Judges are picked by the good ole boys club without pour say so. Laws come to us by so called polls the media takes. Then the powerful who owns this nations media puts it on tv and get us to believe we are under attack. Then our law makers make our laws. Then the affluent can hire a high priced lawyer to twist the law and which ever lawyer is better as twisting before the judge wins. Period. The poor have lawyers who have so many cases they are trying to make deals and run thier cases through the system as fast as they can like we are a cattle herd. Why do you think we need to keep building so many prisons. Yahweh unjust? How many prisons can u find in the bible? Where does the rich get special treatment? But us we can give a not guilty verdict on a 1 billion to 1 chance the defendant is innocence. Where is justice. Sodom and Gomorrah is our way of life. Equal measures have been tilted. Are you a slave to your house/ To your car? To chr-stmas? No lot was Rightous. He protected the stranger. He obeyed Yahweh's way of life. Today it can hardly be found. That is the tragity we are allowing Sodom and Gomorrah into our homes and lives... Blessings As For me and My House we Will call upon the name of Yahweh...Miles

Well first about the relating serial killers to homosexual argument goes, sin is sin, and the punishment for ALL sin no matter what it is, is death, which would pretty much mean we're all screwed cause there is not one of us who hasn't sinned. Which means yes, to God, serial killers and people who don't respect their parents, or those who commit adultery, or whatever other type of sin you want to name is all punishable by death and hell. That's what pisses me off about stupid Christians saying gay's are going to hell or stupid crap like that, because yes, while being gay is considered a sin, like I mentioned above, there's not one person, except Jesus himself who can say he or she has never sinned. The reason of course, that we aren't all condemned to hell is cause of Jesus Christ. We as Christians are called to love not only our neighbors as ourselves, but also our enemies. I don't think it's right or the Christian way to judge or condemn anyone and anyone who says that that is the way of Christianity obviously missed everything Jesus said. As far as the very first piece of scripture posted, no, that doesn't point to homosexual relations. As others have pointed out, a lot of us have had those deep connections with members of the same sex without it being a romantic or sexual thing. And any connection like that with Jesus as their foundation for their friendship, I do believe can be stronger then the feeling you may have for a woman, or a man if you're a woman.

The Union of Reformed Judiasm supports same sex marriages. The Rabbis will perform ceremonies as such.

Wake up, people! If it is not going on in your bedroom and no one is getting hurt, LEAVE IT ALONE!

Lady, please don't take the opinions of some as the opinions of all.

Shaking head and walking out the door.

What was the question posed?

I see lots of talk that is on another topic of discussion.

Perhaps the original question is buried in misguided emotions by an untimely death of comprehension in the minds of many.

i agree, the question was, "is this a specific example of a jewish marriage covenant" that was it. no one was asking for moral opinions on if they think it is right or wrong. it was a question of historical fact, not of morality.