So many here do not get what magick is. One does NOT need the aid of a Diety (god, goddess, higher power) to practice the art of magick. As I stated earlier even an athiest can practice Magick. Magick comes from within oneself by using the mind, body, and spirit. One can use "props" such as things within Nature or man made things to aid in Magick but ultimately the power of Magick comes from within each of us. The aid of a Diety within the art of Magick is merely a focusing tool for the mind in which the practioner draws their inspiration.

Each to their own...labels are labels....it's in the intent.

To cause harm or to cause healing.

Pick a god or goddess, any god or goddess...it is ALWAYS to do with intent.

Hate to brake it to you Angel but it doesn't matter if you Don't worship satan or not because it still come from him!!

You are so blind it is not even funny.

That is just it. The God of the Christians gives his followers things and tells them not to dare use it. I give you free will but you can only use it, without being a sinner, if you do as I want you to with it. What is the point? I see none. I don't see christians going after budhists like they go after pagans with telling them they are wrong because they don't call their God by the same name. So we see that our god has many names and many forms. So what? It is all the same. We do not do evil with it unless we are only in it for the "magic" Which by the way, the only reason that pagan magic is spelled with a k is to differentiate it from illusionary magic. You know like David Copperfield magic.

When you pray to your God you are relying on the magic of prayer, the magic of your God. Whether you want to believe it or not, that is exactly what it is. You believe that if you live exactly the way your God tells you, he will be good and gracious. He will take care of you. Correct? So where is your free will? The same free will that HE gave to you. The free will that you are not supposed to use for yourself. That isn't free will, sorry to say.

There is a theme I have been saying all this time and that God is NOT MAGIC/MAGIK, there is a HUGE difference in power there Satans is a below grade power that cannot even touch God's power.
and by the way it is still free will because it is my freedom to choose weather or not to OBEY God or not...
Just like it is my choice to break a law here on earth, If I speed I get a ticket if I murder someone I go to jail or have the death penalty, the point is that no crime is without punishment.

Why are there commandments in the bible? Because the people that wrote it had to find a way to control the people that read it and worship the God in it. Thou shalt not kill (unless your God tells you to in order to prove your loyalty to him).

{Have you heard the story of Abraham and his Son?
God Provided the sacrifice for Abraham, I wouldn't expect you to understand God's greatness because you don't know, Loyalty is something that is needed, the point is that even when something God tells you seems crazy God will always show his LOYALTY to YOU, he has a plan ahead that you may not see but he won't let you down in the end."

Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife (unless your neighboring brother dies, then it is your duty).

{See here's another thing you are yet missinformed about, you take that out of context...
If someone's wife is a widow then formally you are not coveting her because she 1. no longer belongs to the husbend because he is dead. 2. it is not coveting because COVETING has everything to do with the WANTING and Jelousy of what a man has and if you are helping the woman out with things and NO SEX is involved or wanting her to be yours then it cannot be consittered Coveting now can it?! Thou shall not have any other Gods before me (that statement in itself admits there are other "GODS" not only the one in the bible, but ones before him as well, so he isn't the one and ONLY God. He just wants you to worship ONLY him)

{Not true! another thing you are misinformed about, That statement refers to the fact that mankind has made different things such as money or IDOLS their "gods" so when it says thou shalt have no other gods before me it means don't make objects or put things before your attention ahead of God. the ONE AND ONLY God!}

And just for the record. If Satan was created by the Christian God, then how were people worshipping any satan "BEFORE" he even existed according to the bible?

{Wha?
God was in the begining and Kicked Satan out of heaven so Satan went by many names though time, or did that not occur to you?
who says people were worshiping Satan before God?
Adam walked with God on the earth before anyone was "worshiping" Satan.
I don't know where you got your info from but people were worshiping God long before Satan.}

It is proven that there was religion long before Christianity.
{Old testament is a part of religion that happens to be a part of christianity}
It wasn't wrong before Christianity was created but somehow it became wrong really quickly.

{If your refering to Witchcraft or wicca or anything like that it has always been wrong and the old testiment or even the Torrah says it.}

No I am not a sinner.

{do you realise that we are ALL Sinners? I am even a Sinner so don't tell me that you are not one also, the difference is that I have been absolved by god of my sins.

Working evil? How when we are devoted to HARM NONE? I have a pure religion that is based on all the creations on this earth. If you believe that your God Created this Earth as it states in the Bible, then how can you possibly have a problem with that?

{How can I have a problem with it, let's see, maybe Because you choose to worship God's creation rather then God HIMSELF!

I have read the bible, I used to be able to recite all those so important verses from the bible. (I probably still could if I tried hard enough, it just isn't something that seems prudent to me so..) Something just didn't seem natural about a God that loves his children but wants to control EVERYTHING THEY DO.

{This is what sticks me, He has a better life for all of us, if he really wanted control over us he would have made us all mindless dolls and you wouldn't have the right to even disobey him now would you?}

Don't get me wrong, I commend you on your faith. It is what you believe and that is great. There are too many people out there that don't believe in any path or religion.

I just really find it hypocritical to be so devoted to your religion, to your God and his ways that he lays down so vehemently for you in the bible, and then to go against him. Remember in the 10 Commandments, Thou shall not judge lest thy be judged. When you presume to know that a religion is good or bad you are judging, thus putting yourself in the seat of judgement. But then we aren't supposed to defend our religion. Because you will always have a comeback about how it is the work of Satan. I don't believe in Satan. I believe that the evil on this earth is man made and the only ones that can stop it is the human race.

{I am not Judging you, I am stating what my faith says is wrong, there is a difference between Judging a PERSON and saying your faith.
Don't hate the sinner, Hate the sin.
The same goes with Judging, again I am not Judging You as a person Just shedding light on things about what is wrong.
Remember that The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was that he doesn't Exsist. of course you don't believe in the devil because then you would have to rethink your life if you did.}

I have the right to my own beliefs, just like the budhists, the jewish, the indians, the christians etc....

{Yes Everyone does have the right to choose which is what I have been saying this whole time.}

You don't see Christianity the way I see it. As I don't see paganism the way you do. However, we all have the right to believe what we choose. But in doing so, should you not still obey your God? To "FORGIVE" us for what you believe are sins is so gracious of you. But what would it take for you to "ACCEPT" that there are different beliefs regardless of how you feel about them?

{There is nothing for me to Forgive because it is your Choice to Reject what God has been trying to Give to you,and you will have to explain your choice in the end to God; I do accept you as a person and a human Being because you are something God has made.
What I cannot "accept" Is the sin itself.

Right josh...yep....of course !

Then may I suggest, ACCEPTING that you cannot change someone's beliefs because you think yours are the right ones.

So far as I can see. No-one has any proof of their religion being the RIGHT ONE. Therefore accept that yours is different from ours and quit trying to interfere with it. We don't interfere with your religion. Leave ours alone. Be it right, wrong or a sin. Makes not one bit of difference. You are preaching that everyone has the right to choose by the free will we were given. This is what we choose.

If you are not willing to at least "learn about it", Notice I did not say live it. Learn about it before you go judging it, then you really cannot tell us we are wrong to believe in it.

I do know about christianity. I was raised with it. I read the bible. Still do on occasion. It has some good morality lessons in it. It is all in the way you interpret it. Yes I may have taken some things out of context, to make a point. WE don't look at it the same way you do. That doesn't make you wrong for believing in it. But by the same token it doesn't make us wrong for not believing in it.

You can preach it all day and all night, you won't change my mind. I will still feel as strongly tomorrow as I do today. Just like you.

I raise my kids not to lie, not to cheat, not to steal. I teach them good things. Yes they know my religion and no I do not expect them to choose my religion. They are free to choose whatever religion they are comfortable with. As long as they turn out to be good, decent and law abiding people I don't care what religion they choose. That really sounds like someone that worships Satan.

Unlike a Christian family that requires their children to be the same as them or tells them they are walking the path of Satan.

Your oppinion is just that. But when you try to convince someone that your way is the only way, it is no longer an oppinion. That is where my free will is coming into play and trying to be taken away.

There is no sense in "debating" (arguing) with fanatical fundamentalist Christians (fundies as we Pagans call them) because they are not open to learning about other's spiritual/religious beliefs. They already have their minds made up that all religions except for their own "brand" of Christianity comes from Satan himself. Sometimes Christians even "debate" (argue) amongst themselves because they can't seem to agree on the differing doctrines and theologies within different denominations within Christianity. So what makes us Pagans think they'll (fanatical Christians) will ever be open minded enough to just sit down and learn about other's spiritual beliefs without prosyltizing? I do want to point out that not all Christians are like this, though. They are very few and far between, but I have met a few who are reasonable and are willing to learn about other's religious/spiritual beliefs without prosyltizing. Even those will be silently praying for our poor lost souls that are damned for "hell."

You are so right LadyValkyrie. I have many friends that are devout Christians. I even paint for an entire family of them. They think I am the sweetest, nicest and one of the most honest people they have ever met. They have even told me that that they cannot say that about more than half of the people that go to their church.

They accept everything about me. Then you have these that cannot accept the fact that other people don't believe as they do.

This forum just caught me on a bad streak of no sleep due to working too many hours, trying to run my own business and work a full time job. I guess I let it get the better of me and I fell into the trap of contemplating with one of them.

I sincerely believe that if they can open their minds up and learn something about our religious beliefs, they would realize that in reality we are not too different from them. We get religious freedom by law, therefore we should be left to practice our religion, just as they are.

Intolerance based on misinformation is one of my weaknesses. I cannot stand it when people presume to know what something is without first learning about it.

I don't even, on a normal basis, bother to discuss this subject with people. I am who I am, I do what I do, I believe what I believe. That is who and what I am and if people don't agree they can be someone else's friend. I don't need nor want the drama. Like I said, it just caught me on a bad day. LOL

I even practice alone because I don't agree with allot of the other pagan's around my areas beliefs. There are good and there are bad in every religion. These people need to get over it, it is a reality that cannot be changed by this type of debating.

As I said, this can go on forever, and for some it will.

This will be something people will argue about until the end of time.

Sure I could go on and list every discrepancy in the bible. However, those of you that believe in what it preaches will have an excuse for every one of them. That is fine. But I am not going into it any further.

It is not worth my time to debate this with anyone that clearly just wants me to do as they say like they do as the bible says. If they cannot admit to a simple thing like the magic of God and blah blah blah. Then how can they expect me or any pagan to even consider what they are trying to preach to us. You have to use an open mind with people if you want to make any headway. If you don't then you just butt heads.

I have better things to do with my time. Maybe I will go cast a spell or two.

why do you keep saying God is magic?
God is not magic, Myself and a muslim coworker even agreed there was a difference between the two and we are two different religions so don't tell me that two different religions can agree and yet that we are wrong.
You as a person are fine, I have no problem with you, I know what I know and what I have seen and heard God tell me Himself and it's not something that someone can say "I'm fine with it" and Just walk away without some accountability with God.
If you are "Fine" with something that God told you is wrong then you are just as bad as doing it yourself.

For God, lukewarm isn't warm enough!
Rev. 3:14-16
"And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God: "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth."

The great danger of being lukewarm is that it is easy to believe you are all right. A lukewarm person thinks: "Well, at least I'm not cold." But lukewarm isn't warm enough for God. He will spew us out of His mouth unless we repent.


If I were to be lukewarm he would spit me out if I were "fine" with sin, I have made my share of misstakes like everyone else but it doesn't mean that I always have to make the same ones.

Like I said, we could go on and on and on with this.

Read what I said again. I did not say "God is magic" I said his power is magic. Even though you claim that magic is a sin and God's power is a miracle. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Again, you believe what you like. Believe I am dealing with the devil if you must. I know the truth of the matter. And if God is speaking to you, you must be the new profit. The last I heard he hadn't actually spoken to anyone in centuries. Maybe you take signs as him communing with you. However, if that is the case, how do you know that isn't Satan trying to trick you like you claim he has all of us Pagans?

I cannot keep having this conversation with you. You are all knowing and all seeing, by your own proclamation. You have an answer for everything, even if it really is just a repeat of the last answer to another question. You obviously believe what you preach. Good for you. I, on the other hand, have witnessed the same kind of responses from my children when they try to convince me that they should be allowed to do something that I won't allow. It is all a run around with the same ending.

I personally don't like running around in circles to find the same answers. I like to move forward and find new ones. Therefore, I will continue believing what I believe. End of story.

huh too much text for me to catch up on my reading here. that'll teach me to have my wisdom teeth pulled. and its prophet angel dreams no profit...the latter is gaining money.

talking to God = prayer
God talking to you = crazy....j/k josh or whoever that was...couldn't help myself.

so why dont you try to describe the pagan belief(s)? i don't think that anyone could stop you doing it here

Concerning Christianity i know 2 "guidances" telling your opinion without been asked can guide you to sin, after first and second sermon give up

Oh Josh, Have ya ever heard a song, "Let's call the whole thing off" You say potato, I say potata, you say tomato, I say tomata,
you say miracle, I say magic. You say God, I say Great Mystery.

There's a huge difference between what people think as Magic and what I know is Miracles.
If I had two glasses of Grape juice and you had grape flavered poison and you called them the same thing because they're both grape there lyes the problem.
the look and taste alike but in the end one is going to kill you and the other won't, it's a slow acting poison that you can't feel yet but there is only so much time before it's time to go.
And God is no Mystery, I have him figured out alot but there's still things I'm learning every day God has given me a great understanding of who he is and he still teaches me about himself, if you want God to tell you about himself just ask with a sinsere Heart and I know he'll show Himself to you without any mystery.

So bottom line it's your way or the highway, huh.

I'll keep to the open road thanks...........