Redykeulous,

Jesus was Malach Yahweh in the OT. Malach Yahweh had a body. Since God doesn't change, I would assume that Jesus looked the same 1000 years before he was born as he did when he died. There is also King Melchizedek whom many believe was Jesus. So there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus had any of Mary's DNA. In fact, if Jesus had Mary's DNA exclusively, then he would have been a clone of her...in other words he would have been a woman. Doesn't work. Sorry. Jesus was a man made from DNA that he designed himself. Jesus created the universe and keeps it in existance, so creating a human body for himself wouldn't be taxing in the least.

The seperate nature is not what most believe. Yahshua had a centarian come to him asking to heal his servant. Then he said I am a man under athority if i am told to do something it is done. Then he told yahshua speak the word and he will be healed. And so it was.

This is an example of the father and son. The father told Yahshua what to do and it was done. He created the earth and all that is in it. by the Holy Spirit of his father. Yahshua spoke many times that he could do nothing of himself. That Holy spirit that Yahshua has is the same one he sent to earth from his father Yahweh.

We are created in the image of the father and the son. We are sons of Yahweh.Now which of the Angels has he ever called his son yet they were thier at creation. The difference between us and them is we are sons and that Holy Spirit from the father lives in us.... Miles

Spider wrote:
"so creating a human body for himself wouldn't be taxing in the least."

Exactly.

So why all the hoopla about how God so loved the world that gave his "Only Begotten Son” trying to make it sound all dramatic like as if it was something really special?

Like you say, it would have been no big deal at all for the creator of this universe to have done that.

Moreover, if you take the stance that Mary didn’t contribute any DNA then any genetic lineage to King David or Abraham goes right out the window.

Like I say, this story always wants to have its cake and eat it too. It’s totally dependent on contradictions galore.

Miles wrote:
“This is an example of the father and son. The father told Yahshua what to do and it was done. He created the earth and all that is in it. by the Holy Spirit of his father. Yahshua spoke many times that he could do nothing of himself. That Holy spirit that Yahshua has is the same one he sent to earth from his father Yahweh.”

And this make perfect sense if you think of Jesus as speaking as a pantheist.

We are all god, but none of us are the godhead. That’s the pantheistic view.

If you actually read the teachings of Jesus with pantheism in mind you can clearly see that Jesus is speaking about the pantheistic view. However, you need to also keep in mind that what you are reading was NOT written by Jesus. What you are reading is hearsay by authors who were trying to interpret what Jesus was saying with respect to their dogmatic view of the world which was based on the stories of their God of the Old Testament.

Red said:

Then we have Satan who, although a creation of God, somehow found a way to control and take over the ‘spirit’ part of a human (spirit as in some part of the spirit of God), against the will of God.

Answer:
Satan was an arch angel pretty much the right hand of God...But then Satan thought he was better then God....Big mistake...So God banned him to the pitts of hell for 2000 years....Well guess what folks.....Hes back and he wants all that is good, for he is the bad and ugly. He will take you and your life and twist it for his perverse use.....

red says:

Then we have Jesus, born of the flesh of Mary as, of course God has no flesh. So Jesus was totally the flesh of Mary and her heritage. But the Being born of Mary is not God, but only part of God ( as God can be separated as noted earlier) But this is confusing because if we all, already have the ‘spirit’ in us, than we are all part of God. Except of course Jesus – well wait a minute, ok, so Jesus is human, but does Jesus have a soul? Of course he does, God is the soul, “the Spirit” within us all. Ok – wait, so Jesus just had more spirit than the rest of us, Oh yea to make up for not having a human Father. Is that right?

Answer:
Jesus born of Mary and God....Immaculate conception...yes The spirit within you is not a given.....This you have to ask for when asking Christ into your life....If you don't.....then no go....Becuase the only way to the Father (God) is through his (Son Christ) Now if you have other beliefs on this anyone.....ok....this is just mine.

Red said:

The only ones in all these equations who have no power are humans. Like toys we are thrown about, from hand to hand. First we are led to believe that it was our fault that we have sin on our heads.

Answer: Everyone who knows God's laws knows when he/her sin....I think people in general know when they have done something bad...The big difference is knowing and taking the responsibility for the action by asking forgiveness.

Red Said:

That from the pre-Christian era. Then we are given a whole set of rules to follow, from God, which include sacrifice and all manner of really strange concepts. But then it all that changes. God makes an appearance in the flesh.

Now this is where is gets difficult – because if God is a single entity, even though comprised of three personalities, than where is the separate nature of Father and son? (See argument above Under Jesus Born of Mary)

Answer: This is very true.....God's commandments are to be kept.....but sacrifice if your meaning animal sacrifice was no more because of Jesus....that took that part of of mosiac covenant out......And Im not sure what you mean bu God makes an appearance in the flesh..are you talking God Christ or God....If God.....God came but not in the flesh......in a cloud, and a burning bush.....etc. All of the old testament law was good at the time.....but it was just rituals.....and all of the temple elders got caught up in it......When Christ came he got very upset and threw tables set up like a market place, Say unto them, "You are treating my Fathers House like this."

Red Said:

See to me the point was to tell us we didn’t have to follow the old rules. I guess the way I see it is that God felt bad for creating a less than perfect creature. And when God realized that no matter how hard we tried to follow all those really strange rules, we never would. So the whole crucifixion was just to say, I’m sorry; here, let me punish myself so that you can see, I won’t hold your nature against you.

Answer: You don't have to follow the old testament laws...because of Christ coming took them away....no longer was it required to make burnt offerings to the Lord....For the great sacrafice was given unto man.....Which was Christ.....He willingly went as he too knew that this was fortold for the good of man...But you do have to obey God's Laws.....And actually
there are 166 commandments of God....most only know the main 10.
Now if anything I would think to debate on then why did the Lord give us freewill.....Why didn't he just make us as he wanted us to be....Because he wants each and everyone of you to make up your own mind about Him, His Son, And the Holy Spirit....If you turn your life over to God, and you do it willingly then your more likely to want uphold his commandments,and live your life as he intended.

I try and not always to live each day as I know Christ would want me to for he gave his life for me....its the least I could do. Am I successful.....Never...do I sin.....yes.....But I also am very aware when I do sin.....and I learn from my mistakes.....I have been tested more in these forums then anywhere...and yes I get mad and yes I loose my temper for I am human...And sometimes I want to even scream..."LORD they know not what they speak." But again these are choices every single person in here has to make for themselves.

Also I will tell you this.....that anything that is evil, nasty, creeps into your life and makes you react.....Is of Satan...He loves nothing more then to turn you, me, or anyone away from God and to him. And rest assured that he is winning this battle.....


I don't believe in curses.......I believe that the satan is mean, and tricky, and can get you to do just about anything...and your only hope...or may I should say my only hope is my relationship with God is so strong he doesn't have a chance....Does he rear his ugly head with me.....yeppppp the main difference is that I see it quicker and Im quicker to say satan you have no control in my life...you mean nothing....you are nothing...and you can go back to the pitts of hell where you belong.....And Lord I annoit you...and I give all to you.....I worship you....and I thank you Lord for all the treasures you give in my life...AMEN

Jesus was a man, no different than you or me, (except he seems to have sinned a lot less than I have) LOL

Immaculate Conception? I don't think so.. The God I pray to does not cause such confusion and misdirection..

My God loves everytone, and does not exclude anyone from an afterlife..That means everyone!!!

Abra
I suppose in some ways even though i really know nothing of Panthieth. Thier is a hiarchy. And some will hold higher positions than other. As when the new Jerusalem comes down the Apostles each have a gate to the city named after them. .... Miles

*Edit*
Sorry, that should have read "Immaculate Deception..

To Christian the Christ dying on the cross is a moral story of salvation by a God who became man in order to save mankind from sin. This story is about the love of God who endured pain inorder to save those God loved. It inspires Christian to make sacraificies in order for their own salvation.

But what some Christian don't see is the outside view that Jesus, wherther or not He is God, can not paid for the sins of mankind by dying on the cross. Man can only be by man's good actions not by God becoming man and paying for their sins.

"So why all the hoopla about how God so loved the world that gave his "Only Begotten Son” trying to make it sound all dramatic like as if it was something really special?"

Jesus never sinned. Jesus never once did anything other than good things. Jesus created all life and the universe. Jesus suffered so that we wouldn't have to die. So it IS a big deal. Out of everything in the universe, there is only three beings that don't deserve to die, but our creator choose to for our sake. Makes perfect sense to me, but I don't see with my eyes or think with my heart, I know that both can be deceived.

Spider wrote:
“Jesus never sinned. Jesus never once did anything other than good things.”

Not true.

Your claim is that Jesus is God. That he existed since the dawn of creation, that he is the creator. This has been your position.

So it was then Jesus who caused the great flood and drowned all humanity merely because he was displeased with them. He broke his own law, “Thou Shalt not Kill”

But then when I point this out to you (as I did before) you come back at me saying that the parent does not need to adhere to the laws he gives his children. In other words, God is above his own laws and they don’t apply to him and that he’s free to kill any human because he created them in the first place.

But that flies in the face that Jesus never sinned. If Jesus is above the law and his won laws don’t apply to him and he can’t sin because anything he does is justifiable because he’s God.

Moreover you are so quick to pass judgment on all men being sinner. You weren’t there. You have no idea whether Jesus sinned or not. You also have no way of knowing whether any mortal man could have lived who has never sinned. You’re just accepting the fairytale at face value.

Obviously you and Feral can’t both be right. You claim that Jesus was completely independent of Mary and that Mary was merely a vessel from which Jesus could be born. You claim that Mary was a surrogate mother only and had no genetic connection to Jesus.

Feral claims that Jesus was entirely of Mary. Which presents the genetic contradictions that you had mentioned that he would then have been a clone of Mary and he would be a she.

Like Carl Says,…

“The major religions on the Earth contradict each other left and right. You can't all be correct. And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical.” – Carl Sagan

This is not only true of different religions, but people within the same religion can’t even agree on what’s going on.

Abracadabra,

"So it was then Jesus who caused the great flood and drowned all humanity merely because he was displeased with them. He broke his own law, “Thou Shalt not Kill” "

This must be your fallback position. You need new material.

I stopped reading after I saw that, I have answered that several times, you just don't get it. Actually I think you do get it, it's just a fall back position that you go to whenever you have nothing else to say.

Spider wrote:
“This must be your fallback position. You need new material.”

It’s not my material. I was just commenting on the story you seem to be presenting. But it appears that you keep changing your mind.

When it’s convenient for you, you claim that God adheres to his own laws.

When it’s convenient for you, you claim that God doesn’t need to adhere to his own laws.

I guess you don’t really have a position.

My position is simply that the Biblical story of God is inconsistent and that even those who claim to understand it all give a differnet interpretation of what the story is about.

I think it’s been pretty well established that it’s an ambiguous story at best.

Abracadabra,

Last time, if you don't get it, then you dont' want to.

When Jesus was a >>>>MAN<<< (ie for 33 years), Jesus lived perfectly by every Law that were given to mankind. At all other times, Jesus didn't have to live by those laws. Jesus exercises his position as Judge. Jesus judged the world and found it to be so sinful that all life deserved to die, but Jesus decided to save eight people and members of every animal species. Jesus lowered Himself to the level of being Judged (while he was a man) and He was found to be without sin. Honestly, I don't know if you can't understand this because you are spiritually blind or because you choose not to. But I think everyone else gets it, so I'm done explaining.

If a Judge gives a criminal the death penalty, the Judge isn't commiting murder. When a judge places a criminal in prison, he isn't kidnapping the criminal.

Martyrs have more staying power.

Abra;

That is sort of how it appears - however, this assumes the premise that God did not already know how people would react. You make it sound as though the individual's involved did not have a choice - whereas the fact of the matter is that they made their choice, and God, knowing this, merely formed his plan around this. Therefore, your perspective is incorrect - for it assumes that God potentially did not know how these individuals would chose, and therefoire had to force them to make those choices. Illogical.

Abra;

Sorry for the confusion of the last post - I forgot to paste my reference. It was to the statement you made that the individuals involved in the Crucifiction did not have any choice - that had to do what they did to fullfill God's plan.

Or something similar to that.

Spider and Eljay,

You guys are probably right. The story’s premise is that mankind is inherently sinful. I don’t buy the original premise.

I think the people I quoted earlier like Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman and others probably felt much the same way. They see a book that’s all about a God that's totally obsessed with the sinful nature of man, and they think to themselves, “What’s this all about? I have no desire to do bad things? What’s with this idea that all men are sinful and can’t resist sin without the help of God?”

It just makes no sense to people who’s lives are not based on sin.

Save me from what?

My biggest sin is like eating too many Lifesavers before dinner.

All this judgment and damnation just isn’t applicable to my personal life. If everyone were like me (and many others are I am sure) there wouldn't have been any need for God to send his only begotten son to die on a cross. Moreover who would have crucified him? Certainly not people like me I can assure you of that!

I can say with absolute confidence that if everyone were like me Christ could have never died on the cross for the sins of man because he wouldn’t be able to find anyone to nail him to the cross in the first place.

The story just isn’t applicable to me, what can I say?

If it’s applicable to you then go for it!

Redy;

In response to your original post, I would like to attempt a response, since it seems that no one else has.

The purpose for the Crucifiction was for one purpose only. To "cover" the sins of the world. For the punishment for sin is death. The consequence of sin - is separation from God. God is love. In him is no sin. He is truth. Because of this - sin cannot be in the presence of God - so a soul that sins (spirit - what-ever) is doomed to be outside the presence of God for the length of time it takes for that sin to be redeemed. Redemption for sin can only come from blood. In the Old testament - a blood sacrifice (usually a lamb - other times a goat, depending on the prosperity of those seeking forgiveness). In order to save someone from eternal separation from God - a bllod sacrifice would have to be made for them. The problem with this, though - is though one man may sacrifice his life for another, in order for the infinite sacrifices that would have to be made - (for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) an individual without sin would be needed in order to stop the continuum. Having looked through time - God saw that there was none who would go through life without having commited one sin. Therefore - in order to redeem, Man - God had to send his Son to become flesh, and knowing that he would not sin - become the sacrifice, once and for all times, for all sinners. This man was Jesus. So - jesus could not have just "died of pneumonia" and rose again to save everyone - it was not the death that was required, but the shedding of blood.
Crucifiction was the method - because it is essentially analogous to the death we all "deserve" for the severity of our transgretions. I know that seems severe, and unnecessary - but to God sin is not measured in degree - like we do as humans. We dismiss the "white lie" and want to cage, ridicule, and punish the murder's, even unto death. Then we cry foul when God
desires it for the least of transgretions - according to our "moral" caste system, as it were. As a Christian - this is my understanding of the reaon why Christ was crucified, and why that crucifiction was for the sins of the world.

Now...

You posted this, and I wanted to comment on what I'm led to believe is your understanding of Christianity. Please correct me if I'm miss interpreting you. You said

""I see a lot of ‘separation’ here. Let me point them out.
We have God – the only way to describe this God in any terms a human might understand is God the feminine, God The Spirit and God the masculine (which gets interpreted Father)

>>>>> I do not see this as representing the Judeo/Christian God. I perfectly understnd the concept of the trinity. God the Father - the Creator. God the Son - the word of God, through whom all things were made, who became man's redeemer. God the Holy Spirit - sent to indwell all believers and to seal them for redemption come the time for judgement. <<<<<

Then we have Satan who, although a creation of God, somehow found a way to control and take over the ‘spirit’ part of a human (spirit as in some part of the spirit of God), against the will of God.

>>>>> I've never known of Satan "taking over a spirit" against the will of God. He takes over a spirit by the sheer will of he whom is being taken over. If we're talking in terms of "posession" here. Most often, the issue is one of temptation - not possession. Though it may be true that "demons" may possess - posession by Satan is not an equivalent statement. <<<<<

Then we have Jesus, born of the flesh of Mary as, of course God has no flesh. So Jesus was totally the flesh of Mary and her heritage. But the Being born of Mary is not God, but only part of God ( as God can be separated as noted earlier) But this is confusing because if we all, already have the ‘spirit’ in us, than we are all part of God.

>>>>> Why do you assume we all have the spirit of God within us? This is not a Christian belief. One does not just "have" the spirit - as Jesus says "one must be born of the spirit". Feralcat's post covers this as understood by Christians. <<<<<

Except of course Jesus – well wait a minute, ok, so Jesus is human, but does Jesus have a soul? Of course he does, God is the soul, “the Spirit” within us all.

>>>>> Wrong person of the trinity. It is the Holy Spirit whom indwells believers. <<<<<

Ok – wait, so Jesus just had more spirit than the rest of us, Oh yea to make up for not having a human Father. Is that right?

>>>>> No - see above. <<<<<

The only ones in all these equations who have no power are humans. Like toys we are thrown about, from hand to hand. First we are led to believe that it was our fault that we have sin on our heads.

>>>>> This is what I would refer to as "religious dogma". This concept of "original sin" is unique to Catholicism, and offshoots of Catholicism. It is not a biblical concept. <<<<<

That from the pre-Christian era. Then we are given a whole set of rules to follow, from God, which include sacrifice and all manner of really strange concepts. But then it all that changes.

>>>>> Most people see the bible as "a book of rules", rather than a means of determining right from wrong. The premise of the bible is that truth is absolute. Jesus is truth.
He is a constant, and is unchanging. Therefore - biblical truth is absolute. Conversely - actions are either, right, or wrong. This is why Jesus says "love God with all your heart" and "love one another as you would love yourself" (paraphrases) - "in this the Law is fullfilled." In other words - stop seeing doing right and wrong as a book of rules - but do right by others, as you do so for yourself. <<<<

God makes an appearance in the flesh.

Now this is where is gets difficult – because if God is a single entity, even though comprised of three personalities, than where is the separate nature of Father and son? (See argument above Under Jesus Born of Mary)

>>>>> God the Father and God the Son are one in their essence. They are interchangible in relation to any and all of their attributes. As too, with the Holy Spirit. They do not "disagree" about things and sit around discussing what might be the best perspective. This is why, when Jesus says "The father and I are one" that whatever words come from Jesus' mouth, are the words of God. <<<<<

To go on, suddenly all the sacrifices we were doing, and all the strange rituals we followed and all those dictates that were meant to keep us ‘clean’ or as holy as can be, are not necessary, because God - - - did… what?

>>>>> Because he sent his Son to be a blood sacrifice for sin, so that man would no longer have to continue the practice.
However - in order to be redeemed unto God the Father - one must put their faith in the one who paid the price for sin. This is what faith in Jesus means. <<<<<

See to me the point was to tell us we didn’t have to follow the old rules.

>>>>> Jesus tells us that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fullfill it. What was originally right and wrong at the time of the Law - still is. What isn't applicable was the part of the Law that called for sacrifices, and rituals, that were part of covenants until the time of Jesus' arrival. Sacrifices, and circumcision being examples of these. Thou shall not steal - is still a "law" to be heeded. <<<<<

I guess the way I see it is that God felt bad for creating a less than perfect creature.

>>>>> He created a perfect creature. What is imperfect is the free will of man, and the choices he makes. <<<<<

And when God realized that no matter how hard we tried to follow all those really strange rules, we never would.

>>>>> Ahhhhh.... here-in lies the true crux of the matter, and what is really the central theme of this post. Have you even known anyone who has not, just once in their life - made a wrong choice? It is within EVERYONE's capabilities to ALWAYS choose right. Yet - thoughout eternity, no one ever has, or ever will - ecept for one. Jesus. <<<<<

So the whole crucifixion was just to say, I’m sorry; here, let me punish myself so that you can see, I won’t hold your nature against you.

>>>>> No apologiies as needed from God to man - it is more a way for Man to apologize to God for thinking of themselves, rather than others - of whom He is included. <<<<<

That almost makes sense, except that God knew it was God and that it be God still, and of course there’s still the matter of satan. And then – well I’ll just Abra’s list, it covers the rest.

“Abra
Where do curses come from? Who made the curse originally? Why would God have to bend over backwards to take a curse away? Such a scenario would answer the question because then it would say who was being paid and why it was necessary. Whoever created the original curse was being paid.

So now the question is who created the original curse? The devil?”

>>>>> Well, Abra will have to get his answers from a Catholic - because this concept of "original curse" is part of their "religious dogma". As to the problem of man having a sinful nature - if this is what is meant by "curse" - it can be traced back to Adam and Eve. And if this is something that we've inherited, or was just the way it was always going to be... I don't know. I just know it is the way it is. And I will continue to believe it until there comes a day when I meet someone who has NEVER done anything wrong. <<<<


This - to me, is a perspective to your understanding of these biblical concepts, and what I see - as a Christian, to be inconsistant with what I understand them to mean.

lj

Abra;

I think that there is a slight mis-understanding on your part over what Spider and I refer to as "man having a sinful nature". I think I speak for Spider - in a way - when I say that rather than a man having a propensity to choose wrong when given a choice - which is my sense of how you are reading this, it would be more correct to claim that it is within the nature of man to choose wrongly, though their reason for doing so may appear to be right. You say that if there is anything you may be guilty of - it's having too many life savers before dinner. If this is true - it is within your nature to sin. By your own admission. Picky picky picky - you say. Well - Yeah! But in the God of Christianity - any sin - just one - no matter how BIG or how ((((((((((small))))))) separates you from him. Even if you never did anything wrong again. So - having comited that one - teeny tiny sin - is enough evidence to say "one has a sinful nature". Not because they are always sining. But merely because they are capable of it - and eventually, all will. Even if only once. So - when Spider says "You are a sinner", you hear him say that it is a propensity to sin, rather than just being one amoungst everyone else who's ever walked on this planet - having sinned at least once. Do you know of anyone who has never commited a sin? (And I know you understand what I mean by sin here)