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| Topic: 2 planets beyond Pluto? new theory | |
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Edited by
mightymoe
on
Fri 01/16/15 02:13 PM
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There could be at least two unknown planets hidden well beyond Pluto, whose gravitational influence determines the orbits and strange distribution of objects observed beyond Neptune. This has been revealed by numerical calculations made by researchers at the Complutense University of Madrid and the University of Cambridge. If confirmed, this hypothesis would revolutionize solar system models.
Astronomers have spent decades debating whether some dark trans-Plutonian planet remains to be discovered within the solar system. According to the calculations of scientists at the Complutense University of Madrid (UCM, Spain) and the University of Cambridge (United Kingdom) not only one, but at least two planets must exist to explain the orbital behavior of extreme trans-Neptunian objects (ETNO). The most accepted theory establishes that the orbits of these objects, which travel beyond Neptune, should be distributed randomly, and by an observational bias, their paths must fulfil a series of characteristics: have a semi-major axis with a value close to 150 AU (astronomical units or times the distance between the Earth and the Sun), an inclination of almost 0� and an argument or angle of perihelion (closest point of the orbit to our Sun) also close to 0� or 180�. Yet what is observed in a dozen of these bodies is quite different: the values of the semi-major axis are very disperse (between 150 AU and 525 AU), the average inclination of their orbit is around 20° and argument of Perihelion -31°, without appearing in any case close to 180�. "This excess of objects with unexpected orbital parameters makes us believe that some invisible forces are altering the distribution of the orbital elements of the ETNO and we consider that the most probable explanation is that other unknown planets exist beyond Neptune and Pluto," explains Carlos de la Fuente Marcos, scientist at the UCM and co-author of the study. "The exact number is uncertain, given that the data that we have is limited, but our calculations suggest that there are at least two planets, and probably more, within the confines of our solar system," adds the astrophysicist. To carry out the study, which is published as two articles in the journal "Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society Letters", the researchers have analysed the effects of the so-called "Kozai mechanism", related to the gravitational perturbation that a large body exerts on the orbit of another much smaller and further away object. As a reference they have considered how this mechanism works in the case of comet 96P/Machholz1 under the influence of Jupiter. Two problems to solve Despite their surprising results, the authors rrecognizethat their data comes up against two problems. On the one hand, their proposal goes against the predictions of current models on the formation of the solar system, which state that there are no other planets moving in circular orbits beyond Neptune. However, the recent discovery by the ALMA radio telescope of a planet-forming disk more than 100 astronomical units from the star HL Tauri, which is younger than the Sun and more massive, suggests that planets can form several hundred astronomical units away from the centre of the system. On the other hand, the team recognizes that the analysis is based on a sample with few objects (specifically 13), but they point out that in the coming months more results are going to be published, making the sample larger. "If it is confirmed, our results may be truly revolutionary for astronomy," says de la Fuente Marcos. Last year two researchers from the United States discovered a dwarf planet called 2012 VP113 in the Oort cloud, just beyond our solar system. The discoverers consider that its orbit is influenced by the possible presence of a dark and icy super-Earth, up to ten times larger than our planet. |
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There could be at least two unknown planets hidden well beyond Pluto, whose gravitational influence determines the orbits and strange distribution of objects observed beyond Neptune. This has been revealed by numerical calculations made by researchers at the Complutense University of Madrid and the University of Cambridge. If confirmed, this hypothesis would revolutionize solar system models. Astronomers have spent decades debating whether some dark trans-Plutonian planet remains to be discovered within the solar system. According to the calculations of scientists at the Complutense University of Madrid (UCM, Spain) and the University of Cambridge (United Kingdom) not only one, but at least two planets must exist to explain the orbital behavior of extreme trans-Neptunian objects (ETNO). The most accepted theory establishes that the orbits of these objects, which travel beyond Neptune, should be distributed randomly, and by an observational bias, their paths must fulfil a series of characteristics: have a semi-major axis with a value close to 150 AU (astronomical units or times the distance between the Earth and the Sun), an inclination of almost 0� and an argument or angle of perihelion (closest point of the orbit to our Sun) also close to 0� or 180�. Yet what is observed in a dozen of these bodies is quite different: the values of the semi-major axis are very disperse (between 150 AU and 525 AU), the average inclination of their orbit is around 20° and argument of Perihelion -31°, without appearing in any case close to 180�. "This excess of objects with unexpected orbital parameters makes us believe that some invisible forces are altering the distribution of the orbital elements of the ETNO and we consider that the most probable explanation is that other unknown planets exist beyond Neptune and Pluto," explains Carlos de la Fuente Marcos, scientist at the UCM and co-author of the study. "The exact number is uncertain, given that the data that we have is limited, but our calculations suggest that there are at least two planets, and probably more, within the confines of our solar system," adds the astrophysicist. To carry out the study, which is published as two articles in the journal "Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society Letters", the researchers have analysed the effects of the so-called "Kozai mechanism", related to the gravitational perturbation that a large body exerts on the orbit of another much smaller and further away object. As a reference they have considered how this mechanism works in the case of comet 96P/Machholz1 under the influence of Jupiter. Two problems to solve Despite their surprising results, the authors rrecognizethat their data comes up against two problems. On the one hand, their proposal goes against the predictions of current models on the formation of the solar system, which state that there are no other planets moving in circular orbits beyond Neptune. However, the recent discovery by the ALMA radio telescope of a planet-forming disk more than 100 astronomical units from the star HL Tauri, which is younger than the Sun and more massive, suggests that planets can form several hundred astronomical units away from the centre of the system. On the other hand, the team recognizes that the analysis is based on a sample with few objects (specifically 13), but they point out that in the coming months more results are going to be published, making the sample larger. "If it is confirmed, our results may be truly revolutionary for astronomy," says de la Fuente Marcos. Last year two researchers from the United States discovered a dwarf planet called 2012 VP113 in the Oort cloud, just beyond our solar system. The discoverers consider that its orbit is influenced by the possible presence of a dark and icy super-Earth, up to ten times larger than our planet. |
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Do black holes exert the same gravitational pull as small planets?
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Do black holes exert the same gravitational pull as small planets? 
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Do black holes exert the same gravitational pull as small planets? the more mass a body has, the more gravitational pull... that's why everything in our solar system revolves around the sun, and why the bigger planets have more moons... on a side note, black holes, if they exist, could be smaller than earth but way more denser, meaning they have way more mass... a spoonful could weigh millions of tons... |
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There could be at least two unknown planets hidden well beyond Pluto, whose gravitational influence determines the orbits and strange distribution of objects observed beyond Neptune. This has been revealed by numerical calculations made by researchers at the Complutense University of Madrid and the University of Cambridge. If confirmed, this hypothesis would revolutionize solar system models. Astronomers have spent decades debating whether some dark trans-Plutonian planet remains to be discovered within the solar system. According to the calculations of scientists at the Complutense University of Madrid (UCM, Spain) and the University of Cambridge (United Kingdom) not only one, but at least two planets must exist to explain the orbital behavior of extreme trans-Neptunian objects (ETNO). The most accepted theory establishes that the orbits of these objects, which travel beyond Neptune, should be distributed randomly, and by an observational bias, their paths must fulfil a series of characteristics: have a semi-major axis with a value close to 150 AU (astronomical units or times the distance between the Earth and the Sun), an inclination of almost 0� and an argument or angle of perihelion (closest point of the orbit to our Sun) also close to 0� or 180�. Yet what is observed in a dozen of these bodies is quite different: the values of the semi-major axis are very disperse (between 150 AU and 525 AU), the average inclination of their orbit is around 20° and argument of Perihelion -31°, without appearing in any case close to 180�. "This excess of objects with unexpected orbital parameters makes us believe that some invisible forces are altering the distribution of the orbital elements of the ETNO and we consider that the most probable explanation is that other unknown planets exist beyond Neptune and Pluto," explains Carlos de la Fuente Marcos, scientist at the UCM and co-author of the study. "The exact number is uncertain, given that the data that we have is limited, but our calculations suggest that there are at least two planets, and probably more, within the confines of our solar system," adds the astrophysicist. To carry out the study, which is published as two articles in the journal "Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society Letters", the researchers have analysed the effects of the so-called "Kozai mechanism", related to the gravitational perturbation that a large body exerts on the orbit of another much smaller and further away object. As a reference they have considered how this mechanism works in the case of comet 96P/Machholz1 under the influence of Jupiter. Two problems to solve Despite their surprising results, the authors rrecognizethat their data comes up against two problems. On the one hand, their proposal goes against the predictions of current models on the formation of the solar system, which state that there are no other planets moving in circular orbits beyond Neptune. However, the recent discovery by the ALMA radio telescope of a planet-forming disk more than 100 astronomical units from the star HL Tauri, which is younger than the Sun and more massive, suggests that planets can form several hundred astronomical units away from the centre of the system. On the other hand, the team recognizes that the analysis is based on a sample with few objects (specifically 13), but they point out that in the coming months more results are going to be published, making the sample larger. "If it is confirmed, our results may be truly revolutionary for astronomy," says de la Fuente Marcos. Last year two researchers from the United States discovered a dwarf planet called 2012 VP113 in the Oort cloud, just beyond our solar system. The discoverers consider that its orbit is influenced by the possible presence of a dark and icy super-Earth, up to ten times larger than our planet. there's not enough light reflecting from them to see them... they are to far out, so no, hubble wouldn't be able to see them... maybe if they had a molten core, they could see it with an inferred scope, but only if the heat was escaping... |
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The reason I asked is, a guy on Nova was saying that we know so
little about black holes, that our very solar system (or universe) could be inside one and we would not know it...so rather than it being too big to be inside our system, it instead could very well have us inside it. I wonder what we will learn in our lifetimes. Because everything I see or learn, makes it seem like we have not scratched the surface of space knowledge. Scares the crap outta me :-) |
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Edited by
mightymoe
on
Fri 01/16/15 04:59 PM
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The reason I asked is, a guy on Nova was saying that we know so little about black holes, that our very solar system (or universe) could be inside one and we would not know it...so rather than it being too big to be inside our system, it instead could very well have us inside it. I wonder what we will learn in our lifetimes. Because everything I see or learn, makes it seem like we have not scratched the surface of space knowledge. Scares the crap outta me :-) it's true, all we really know is there is something very strong at the center of our galaxy... and the only way we know that is years of taking pictures of the stars at the center shows they are in orbit around something we can't see... the rest is theories... but the rest of that, us being inside one, is just theological nonsense, something for people to dream about... |
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I can't imagine how small these two new other planets must be.
The last I heard, Pluto was relegated to being little more than a chunk-of-ice. How much less significant can these be? |
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Ah, thanks for that Moe.
I suppose that might have been the thrust of saying we might be in a black hole, the point being how little we know of them, hyperbole, eh? :-) Because the new planet hypothesis was plotted it appears by gravitational forces of some sort, and, nothing has sucked us in yet, are planets the only choices? |
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I can't imagine how small these two new other planets must be. The last I heard, Pluto was relegated to being little more than a chunk-of-ice. How much less significant can these be? they are think about Jupiter's mass or bigger... can't be less mass or it wouldn't affect Neptune's orbit... |
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The reason I asked is, a guy on Nova was saying that we know so little about black holes, that our very solar system (or universe) could be inside one and we would not know it...so rather than it being too big to be inside our system, it instead could very well have us inside it. I wonder what we will learn in our lifetimes. Because everything I see or learn, makes it seem like we have not scratched the surface of space knowledge. Scares the crap outta me :-) here is a site that might help 
http://astro.uchicago.edu/cosmus/projects/UCLA_GCG/ |
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Do black holes exert the same gravitational pull as small planets? The theory is, Black Holes have enough gravitational-pull to even pull in light. 
I'm cynical though. 
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Edited by
mightymoe
on
Fri 01/16/15 05:25 PM
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Ah, thanks for that Moe. I suppose that might have been the thrust of saying we might be in a black hole, the point being how little we know of them, hyperbole, eh? :-) Because the new planet hypothesis was plotted it appears by gravitational forces of some sort, and, nothing has sucked us in yet, are planets the only choices? actually, no... a brown dwarf could cause as well, but they haven't found one close enough yet.. not completely out of the question, just no evidence for it... or, maybe, the burned out superdense core of an exploded star, but if it's not putting out any heat, we won't be able to see it.. kinda far fetched, but possible... |
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on a side note, one of the voyagers showed the same thing when it left the ort cloud, nobody knows why...
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Some believe that Jupiter has relatively little mass in relation to its visible size.
If these, I'm assuming, small planets outside the orbit of Pluto are as small as I'm assuming they must be... What element are they made of? |
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Some believe that Jupiter has relatively little mass in relation to its visible size. If these, I'm assuming, small planets outside the orbit of Pluto are as small as I'm assuming they must be... What element are they made of? true, mainly frozen materials - gas, rocks and water.. most gasses turn solids when cold enough |
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Never mind frozen water and common rocks... How about metallic elements denser than Lead or Gold or Platinum?
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Never mind frozen water and common rocks... How about metallic elements denser than Lead or Gold or Platinum? who knows, but since it's here on earth, there should be some there too... the theory is that the heavy elements come from the cores of exploded stars, so if thats the case, all of the planets in our solar system should have them... |
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Never mind frozen water and common rocks... How about metallic elements denser than Lead or Gold or Platinum? who knows, but since it's here on earth, there should be some there too... the theory is that the heavy elements come from the cores of exploded stars, so if thats the case, all of the planets in our solar system should have them... |
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