When considering death and afterlife it seems that the vast majority of people tend to think it terms of it being one-way.

By that, I simply mean that the most common scenario that people seem to ponder is the idea that we came into existence at the time our physical bodies where born. Yet there seems to be a very strong desire to believe that we will not cease to exist when our physical bodies die.

Well, if we can easily believe that our spirits can exist without our physical body, then why place this phenomena only on one end of life? Why not place it on both ends? If our spirits can exist without a physical body after death, then why not believe that our spirits actually existed before our physical bodies were born? After all, if our spiritual essence does require a physical body then why would it have required a physical body to be created in the first place?

I believe in the spiritual nature of our ultimate existence. But I see that nature as being eternal and not having just begun at the time of our physical birth. Just as we don’t die when our physical bodies die, neither were our spirits created when our physical bodies where born.

Many people may then ask, “So if that’s true then why don’t we remember our past existence”. My answer to that is simple. We chose to be blinded to that memory when we entered this physical world. It’s how the game is played. Physical life is like going to a movie or reading a book for a spirit. It makes it much more interesting if you can lose yourself in the story without being distracted by the knowledge of your true nature and all of your past lives and experiences. Being blinded to memory upon entering a new life is what makes it fresh and exciting.

When we die and *return* to our spiritual state, we then regain our spiritual memory of all of the past lives we have lived just as we now, in the human form, can remember all of the books we’ve read or movies we’ve watch or experiences that we’ve had in this life.

I believe that this is, in fact, our true nature. “Heaven” is like a giant library of physical worlds that can be experienced. In our spiritual form we can pick and choose which lives we’ll live (read). There are infinitly many “books” (or lives) in the spiritual library, and there are different kinds of books as well.

All lives will not be the same as on earth in the human form. Some lives we may well choose to retain certain knowledge and memory of our true nature and vast experiences. It just so happens that in this particular life called “Life on Earth” forfeiting that memory and knowledge is what the author had in mind. So this is why this life is the way that it is.

Often too, when people think of the concept of “reincarnation” they limit that thought to the idea of returning to earth and re-living only this one type of physical existence. But, in truth, reincarnation can be infinitely complex. The next life you choose to live may be on a differnet planet altogether, or perhaps even in a differnet universe or world so drastically different from life on earth that we can’t even begin to imagine it as humans.

The idea that all of creation, and all of existence is based on a human-centric ideal is really pretty ridiculous if you think about it. If our true nature genuinely is that of a spiritual form, then the human form is really just a fleeting thing. It’s not humanity that is ultimately important but rather spirituality. Because in the end what we really are is spirit.

I’m not claiming that this is the way things are. I’m merely asking, “Why not?”.

If we believe we have a “soul” that is ultimately not dependent on our physical bodies, then why do we assume that our souls were created with the birth of our physical bodies? This is especially true if we believe that our soul will continue to exist after our body dies. Why the one-way thinking?

I believe that we are always spirit, before this life, and after this life. It makes no sense to me that a physical body would be required to give birth to a spirit. We are either spirit or we’re not. And if we are, then we mostly likely were before our physical bodies were even born.

I just don’t understand the “one-way” idea of believing that we came into being at birth, but then won’t die when our bodies die. That just seems to me to be lop-sided thinking. We’re either spirit or we’re not.

I believe we are, and always were, and always will be.

Hmmmmm interesting.......

dude u just made me think and thats cool. i now am thinking about the choices that i might have made in my previous life to make this one suck so bad. thanx dude

I am glad you started this Abra. Interesting thoughts, Lets add a little more to your scenario if you don't mind.

Since as you stated we have souls before we come to this plane of existance why wouldn't we be able to pick a desired path? Think about it for a few minutes. If we are able to pick a desired path yet we don't really remember would that explain prophecies?

I for one have thought we have several possible paths on this plane, and as we travel through our lives we are able to choose which way we wish to go. That would explain Deja Vue and many other things that occur in our lives. That would also explain why we believe in soul mates or like souls. Many people of this world practice so-called magics, are these actually people who are able to break the veil of forgotten dreams/pasts?

Lets say I am able to see things that happen in the future and the situations that occur, would I be able to change/control the outcome if only a little?

I have only touched on what could happen if that veil were to be broken and that library you speak of becomes accesable on this plane.

Now your thinking similar to my beliefs, I like it!!!



G

I suspect that sometimes terminology and limited communication, (written word) can be misinterpreted..

What's that got to do with anything?? Well lots, really.

I know that I have made the statement here in these forums.."we are born into these bodies' "from the time of one's birth'...and yet speak of the other end of life..(death) as a continuum.

It is an interesting train of thought, James...and worth pondering..

What comes to mind for me, is the practicals...having delivered a number of babies, and for the want of simplified communication amongst most, used the medical example of a baby, (of any species, mammals for this example) being born, once it has left it's mother's, (host's) body...it has been 'born'.

If you don't mind I would like to share a conversation my, at the time, 4 year old had with me...

A typical early evening, sitting at the dinner table with my four, then, young children, distracted with feeding the 2 year old, and listening to the flow of conversation amongst my other children, when, my 4 year old asked, "There wa a lot of people there when I was born, wasn't there Mum?"
I pondered his question for a second, and replied, " In the hospital? Well, there was Daddy, Aunty Sue, and a midwife, you and I, but not lots of people, honey"

His little face frowned for a minute, and then he said," NO....while I WAITING to be born." I wasn't sure where he was going with this so asked him "What do you mean?"

He replied, quite cranky with me, not understanding his meaning, and sighed, and said.."Oh Mum, you DO know, what I mean...the other place....where you wait to be born, there's lots of people there".

Hmmmm...I had a bit of a quandry, I had not shared my thoughts on what this is, this life thing, with any of my children...perhaps in passing, in an off hand way...but never spoken in absolutes. So I enquired as to whether perhaps he had seen on someone's tv, (we had not owned one in his little life, nor the others time) or were some kids or grownups talking about that stuff...

He sighed, and said.." No, I REMEMBER that place."


So to clarify my way of thinking, for others to understand, helped to REMEMBER by little one, I see souls as cyclical, and this thing we call life, Now, in these bodies, as part of the flow...from there to hear, and as vehicles, for us to meet our soul contracts, learnings, whatever one wishes to call it...

Kind of whoosh in one end...and whoosh out the other..back to Source.

Most of us, experience death more than we do birth, and I wonder how many really, look at the birth, 'born', side of thiings, great topic James.

Ahh.. Abra... we are certainly in agreement this week!

Reincarnation always seems like the most likely scenario to me (some of my friends tease that as an environmentalist I just really believe in recycling) but I have also often thought as you apparently do that always imagining things in human terms is excessively limiting...

"Often too, when people think of the concept of “reincarnation” they limit that thought to the idea of returning to earth and re-living only this one type of physical existence. But, in truth, reincarnation can be infinitely complex. The next life you choose to live may be on a differnet planet altogether, or perhaps even in a differnet universe or world so drastically different from life on earth that we can’t even begin to imagine it as humans. "

I have thought this as well... there is so much variety in the universe. Why would we, and our creator, not wish to try many things? I know that the many portrayals of god as a human are because that is what is familiar to people, but to me I know I am far from "godlike" so why would I imagine god to be like me? These labels and limits may aid some in comprehending or communicating certain concepts but they also limit us... there are so many possibilities..

This planet is beautiful but why would we be so stuck in space and time when we "die"? Why not even evolve pure energy forms or other entitys in other universes...

Maybe if you are good
you go to heaven, nirvana,
the next place, whatever
you want to call it.

But if you're bad...

If you're bad you
get to haunt a big
spooky mansion.

Whooooo!

This is a topic I have always found interesting. My interest in such ideas has invariarbly been a source of conflict when others attemt to associate such ideas with an atheist. To me, this is the proof of just how deep the roots of monotheistic religions run. Many can't see beyond their conditioning and therefore, can't make the connection that one might question the eternal life sceniero and still be an athiest.

That's why I have always enjoyed this forum, there are so many open minds here.

Jess presents yet another example of the untainted mind of a child. I've heard so many such stories, even in these forums. I have had my own remembrences and listened to my son and my cousins also. Many untold hours considering all this and even attempting to conceive the experience of being spirit or pure energy.

As humans we many ways to interact and many ways extending and receiving physical sensory perceptions. This is how we experience the physical realm and it is the only tangible reality of existence we have. So I've imagined 'being' without a physical form.

It's difficult beyond measure because even our thought processes are produced through a physical function from a physical mass call the brain. So how does one get beyond accepting that intelligence can exist without a brain?

Took me years to get past that issue, not resolve it or even close to understanding it's possibility, but merely just accepting it. Once I did that I was finally able to move on and imagine all the data of a physical existence stored within that which comprises the make up of an entity of energy. Free flowing visions, thoughts, concepts, ideas, moving about within, wanting to experience and harvest even more such data.

Looking for what? Existing for what? And what kind of contact with others like it would there be? Would there be an exchange of ideas, as we would have a discussion, or would they exchange the dreams of past existences? Is there emotion, or instinct?

You see some view this topic and see a spirit to which they ascribe human attributes. As Miles suggested that perhaps this might be the resaon for that singular attraction that we have labeled 'soul mates'. I'm not so sure it's not the other way around. Here is why. If we take a physical existence for the sake of experience only. When that physical existence ends, what remains of the experience has to include the abilty to comprehend and understand human emotions and physical senses, without actually having them. Consider that humanity is one of any number of possiblities in the experience of the eternal that we speak of. Having had this experience, the entity moves on. Also consider that time is not the relevant thing that it was to us as human. Then suddenly out there in the vastness of time and space, the two entities meet and in their communication they exchange a dream of an existance as human, in which they were lovers, or parent and child.

I so enjoy thinking about that, imagining this emotionless entity, suddenly having such an exchange, where the emotions required to remember and understand the human experience is suddenly met with that ONE other from that ONE of many existances. Could this be how they communicate? Could this be how they would share? Can you imagine the rush of emotionless creatures, coming into contact and at the moment of sharing/exchanging experiences there is recognition and with that recognition the ignition of shared remberance of those same emotions that we felt as humans. What all encompasing joy that might inspire, to have found and touched that one again, even just for the brief moment in which they exchange their experiences.

I do enjoy sharing about this topic, there are so many points of view to consider.

*I love this very superb post.
*I think that existence is like a 'big recycler'. Everything in existence is energy that is constantly moving and changing through and out of forms. Can never be created or distroyed. Always has been always will be.Energy. (Energy sounds like God)
*I think that we are part of this great energy source and choose our physical life(s) as we 'go along', for some unknown purpose to us for now, but we knew our 'mission' before hand. ('go along', I realize that time is not fluid in the spacetime continuum)('spacetime continuum', This is only using four dimensions, before the subotonic that introduces more).
*We just have to play by the physics of the physical world, with nothing really more than our thoughts and emotions for our guidence, to accomplish what ever we need to do.
*However I do think that maybe it is possible to see through this 'veil', and grasp some glimsp of the understanding of things. Maybe through thought energy we can even break laws of physics. Like gravity being such a strong force but is so weak due to its escape to other dimensions. ('Gravity escape' Best quantum physics working hypotisis theroy to date. Still working on quantum gravtitons).

I was afraid that my OP might have been too large that no one would read it, but I’m happy to see quite a few responses that nearly match it in size!

It seems that this is a very attractive view of for many. It’s certainly an attractive view for me.

Once again I must applaud the wisdom of Oasis,...

“Why would we, and our creator, not wish to try many things?” – Anoasis.

I think I’ll tuck that away in my “famous quotes” stash.

Ecclesiastes 1:1-13 The words of the preacher, the son of David, king of Jerusalem.
Vanities of vanities, saith the preacher, vanities; all is vanity.
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he takth under the sun?
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall bt; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there anything whereof it may be said, see, this is new? It hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

~ How my Spirit Grew ~

~~~

I came without a memory
to be born again anew

Floating in a stinky creek
in a motorless canoe

Everyone is telling me
that what I do’s taboo!

As if they have a knowledge
of everything that’s true

I used to be naïve
I really thought they knew

Until I took their knowledge
to exam and review

It then became apparent
that their knowledge was askew

The people who were preaching it
didn’t have a clue!

I knew I’d need to take a stance
and it was sorely overdue

So now I view my spirit
as that which I imbue

Tis this I am
and that I am
I’m Dr. Seuss’s Who!

And though it makes no sense to them
it’s how my spirit grew

~~~

(Abra 9/2/07)

Hey Abra-

I was talking to a friend about reincarnation this weekend and he reminded me of something I have heard before re:

You wrote: “So if that’s true then why don’t we remember our past existence”

This theory is that we do remember our past existance(s) while we are in the womb, but that the trauma of child birth causes us to "forget" them... this is obviously an attempt to justify why child birth is so physically traumatic. And in the case of cesarian sections the anaesthesia is blamed.

I thought it was an interesting idea but just another possibility...

RE: "It just so happens that in this particular life called “Life on Earth” forfeiting that memory and knowledge is what the author had in mind."

This makes sense to me- because maybe our previous existances are so vastly different from what is possible here on earth that they are incomprehensible to our minds in human form... so when we get to this life we simply cannot process our knowledge of our previous "lives".

Maybe in another incarnation we can do so, or maybe in the "heaven" that you propose, which is just another kind of existance?

I don’t know what’s going on, but I have a sneaky suspicion that my cat knows all about it and just isn't talking.

Ahhh ...Anoasis...may I add to your comments..

Who does have 'memories'...little jolts of familiarity...with people, places, situations, that we have not within this lifetime, had, or met previously?

Who has had that 'connection', deep, intense, real, with another, yet have never 'met' them before that very instant?

I suspect, that these are past memories, past lessons, past situations...revisited, shifted slightly, to enable us to learn, that which we may have not overcome, in previous times..

Remember past existances? But perhaps we do...just not at this human level we have to exist in, on this plane.....

Yes Jess, I agree, we may remember some... those "familiar" places or people that we just meet but feel as if we have known for a long time... deja vu experiences... maybe those are from "memories"...

But I tend to doubt those who claim to remember everything of a past life or lives.

This may be unfair of me, but it is based on those few I have seen or heard of thus far who claim that they remember or can "channel" past lives... I just have never seen or heard stories of any of these that seemed at all believable to me.

Abra-

is that why my cat always looks so satisfied?

I thought it was because of her (obviously) superior intelligence in that I am clearly her servant.

I’ve certainly had the feeling that I’ve been to places before when I know that it’s the first time I’ve ever been there. Moreover, my sense of memory is often related to a whole different time and scenario. Perhaps we pass by this way more often than we realize.

The other thing I have a very strong sense about is that of having lived in very primitive times. Some sometimes it’s like I was a human, but other times it’s more like I was just a consciousness viewing life almost like a fly on the wall. Could those have been memories of having actually been a lower life form?

It may well be possible that animals aren’t even really aware of themselves. In fact, it’s self-awareness that humans seem to be so proud of that separates them from the animals. So many when we’re in the form of a lower animal we aren’t even really aware of our own existence so much. Maybe instead the actual experience is more like being an observer of life rather than a participant.

My cat sure seems to be enjoying his existence I can tell you that much. He just lays around taking everything in without a care in the world.

I have a dog, which I suspect is an incarnate of a zen master...I know exactly what you mean, James.

You brought up a really good point, well, train of thought...'an observer, like a fly on the wall'.

I often find, as I allow detachment; from ego, reactions, situations, to 'become' a more authentic part of who I am...the position of observer is much clearer...

Does anyone else feel that, at times, more of an observer to life, than a, 'Jump in up to the knees, neck, whatever', 'Lost in the quagmire', of some situations?

I often feel less 'attached' to situations, and more of an observer. i wonder if that is similar to your train of thought, James.

I've had a number of odd "coincidences" that I can't explain. I don't know how to or even really want to try. It just is.
There are people I've met that I'm sure I know from somewhere but knowing full well we've never met before. Certain friendships just start in an instant. Sharing thoughts and feelings from a distance. No questioning. It just is.
We don't need to know all the answers right now. Just accept it and the knowledge will come when it's needed.