I'm cynical.



Nope…I've read the scripture.



Nope…I've seen no such difference at all.



No more than any other country and considerably less than most from what I've seen.



That is entirely contingent on the definition of "innocent"



I once made up a saying or adage that I live by:

"Believe nothing that you hear or read and only half of what you see with your own eyes. What's left may not be the truth, but at least you can be sure you've eliminated more than half of the lies."

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2010/06/15/iran_cleric_wants_special_weapons_to_deter_enemy/

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_07_11/Hamenei-End-of-the-World/

Well it is very interesting to see your perspective.



I think you are selectively reading scripture. You missed
"Thou shall not kill" and other similar admonitions to do
no harm to anyone and to respect life and freedom.

I myself am also cynical at times but not so cynical as to
suspend belief in well documented and thoughtful analysis.

Many Islamic scholars repeatedly point out that their religion
does not advocate killing people under any circumstances in
modern interpretations and that terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah
and the Taliban are perverting the religion much in the same
way that Christianity once justified forced conversions and
religious war.

I do find it extremely odd that you cannot see Iran's exceptional
intolerance and bigotry. Iran has been documented to be actively
advocating and supporting war crime terrorist activity. Iran
takes hostages and brutally suppresses their own population. Iran
does not tolerate dissent or any other open religious practices or
conversions. Iran tramples on womens' rights also. So that definitely
makes me wonder why one might have difficulty recognizing Iran's
unusual intolerance and religious perversion.

I note also that you do not seem to be able to come up with any
instance of a Jewish religious leader of any consequence who has
advocated holy war and have not been able to point out any Jewish
holy war in recorded history. Also I see that the existence of
today's well documented Islamic holy war or Jihad against the west
as described in the video link I posted above is not disputed.

I note that Moses, the guy who originally conveyed G-d's commandments advocated the killing of anybody already occupying the coveted "Promised land" who didn't want them moving in. Seems like Moses had no respect for G-d's own commandment. Oh…I forgot…G-d probably told him this was a "special exception" to the rule:

Numbers 21:31 - 21:35:

Thus Israel dwelt in the land of the Amorites.
And Moses sent to spy out Jaazer, and they took the villages thereof, and drove out the Amorites that were there.
And they turned and went up by the way of Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan went out against them, he, and all his people, to the battle at Edrei.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.



Being a skeptic and not the faithful sort, I prefer to suspend my DISbelief when confronted by persuasive logic.



Which Islamic scholars consider Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Taliban terrorists?



I don't see why; I don't live there, so I don't see it at all.



So tell me; precisely who documented it, and are you sure the motives of the documenter(s) are beyond reproach? Can you provide pictures, videos, arrests or any convictions for any of this "war crime activity", or should I just take your word for it?



Please document the allegation.



Then how do you explain the thriving Jewish community in Iran that refuses to move to Israel to spite the $50,000 offer by Israel to any Iranian Jew who will? How do you explain a Jewish member of the Iranian Parliament? How do you explain this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngttxIzXRsE

How do you explain the apparent tolerance of Zoroastrianism? Surely the Iranian National Guard could have hunted them down and hanged them by now if Iran is as intolerant as you say. Why haven't they?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZQGwhVMkc



I can't think of a society in the East OR the West that doesn't trample on women's rights. I don't know what makes Iran so special in that regard. Religious perversion? How has Iran perverted Islam?



Rabbi Marzel - "We have to declare a holy war."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Marzel

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3321178,00.html

Moses Ben Maimonides - Maimonides further decreed that any non-Jewish nation "not subject to our jurisdiction" (tahaht yadeinu) will be the target of Jewish holy war.

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

Rabbi Avichai Rontzki:

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/02/08/israeli-mp-military-rabbi-turned-gaza-into-holy-war/

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/03/20/64518/israeli-soldiers-say-army-rabbis.html

Need more?

Examples of Christians literally threatening holy war are harder to find. Would examples of simple vicious religious intolerance do?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368543/Florida-preacher-Terry-Jones-burns-Koran-bizarre-trial-execution-crowd---30-people.html



You go girl! <= (sarcasm)



I think I have that all covered now, except for the video link…I haven't watched it yet.

Rather than attempt to recognize the teachings of Judaism, you
cite bible stories about battles which do not attempt to discuss
anything about ethical behavior.







Sounds like you are just adopting my position. Except you actually
simply wish to declare your DISbelief of anything which disagrees with your preconceived bias without consideration.






http://dawn.com/2012/10/11/fifty-muslim-scholars-issue-fatwa-against-taliban/

etc.





Sounds like a kid who puts their hands over their eyes and
says - "See no evil, see no evil"



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/weekinreview/28sanger.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-new-report-finds-surge-repression-dissent-2012-02-28

http://amnesty.ie/content/womens-rights-iran

I mean really now. It is not believable that you could know
nothing of this as it is on the news every day and has been
discussed here on forums many times.






Well EVERYBODY has documented it but here is a summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state_terrorism

The principle tactics of the terrorist activity supported by
Iran and documented in the article above - is the killing of
civilians which are war crimes obviously.

So you don't have to take my word for it.





See above.



Iranian Jews are persecuted horribly despite the propaganda flicks
you post. The history is well documented. Here:

Contrary to the claims made by Tehran’s apologists [particularly
those on the political left like Roger Cohen], Iranian Jews suffer
under one of the worst forms of persecution under Iran’s Islamic
regime.

http://newsflavor.com/world/middle-east/persecuted-iranian-jews/

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

Almost all of the 100,000 Jews living in Iran in 1948 have fled
or been forced to leave. Today there are only about 8000 Jews
left.



That's a "howler" to compare women's rights in Iran and the US,
Europe, Israel, Australia etc.







Marzel and his tiny band of radicals are no great leaders
of Jews but a splinter group Kach which has been outlawed in Israel!

=-=-=-=




Revisionist history indeed!

Read the truth about Maimonides in the Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

Maimonides never called for holy war and was a man of peace
and healing as a doctor.

=-=-=-=


The above article states that the booklet in question is not an
actual call to holy war and that it was not from Rontzki!



Here is an excerpt from your citation:

"The controversial booklet distributed to Israeli soldiers during
the Gaza invasion by chief Israeli military rabbi Brigadier General
Avichai Rontzki was “unsuitable for military publication,”
according to the Israeli Defense Ministry.

In a letter to opposition MP Avshalom Vilan, an attorney for the
Defense Ministry tried to minimize the seriousness however,
claiming the book was only distributed in small numbers and that
Brig-Gen. Rontzki did not even see it until after its publication.
They added that Chief of Staff Ashkenazi had summoned Rontzki about
the matter."





Now this article talks about the same discredited booklet and
describes how Israelis themselves repudiated it.





Well what you have provided so far is just silly garbage.

Oh I would say based on the quality of your appeal to bible stories
which don't discuss ethics and your citation of a couple of fringe
repudiated nutballs and a pamphlet from some right wing uncredited
source that you have fallen somewhat short of the Crusades or the
current state of militant Islamic Jihad...





Best rebuttal so far! <= (dead serious)
Not in keeping with mingle2 policy however - tch tch!







Have a look. It is informative.

@slowhand, THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME THE EFFORT! Every one of your responses was what I wanted to say and you beat me to it a long time ago!

Mad Respect!

And now for one other thing, Islam is indeed invading but this time they have changed tactics to use the leverage of Democracy against us.

Why do you think Australia told the Muslim population living there to naturalize or leave? Even those cock sucking French government officials are catching a lot of crap for allowing Islam to impose its laws over French law IN FRANCE! England right now is having a good time coping with that as well. And here in America they already attempted to impose Sharia law in certain towns only to be told NO WAY!

DEARBOURNE MICHIGAN FOLKS! LARGEST POPULATION OF MUSLIMS IN AMERICA! THEY TRIED AND GOT SHOT DOWN!

Invasion does not mean it has to be military!

Thanks Andy



Let's just say that I find it distasteful to see the repeated Israel
bashing in the forums and feel that the best way to counter it is by
showing patiently why it is a bunch of hogwash.

It is not very difficult to discredit most of the antisemitic and
anti-Israeli rhetoric because it is flimsy and without any substance
other that ignorance and bigotry and that rhetoric is dispatched
effectively with just a couple obvious counterarguments and some
real documentation.

Mostly the anti-Israel blather is so exaggerated, strained and
hyperbolic that it parodies itself!



I mean like women and dissidents in Iran are never mistreated and
Jews live in Iran just happy as clams. Never mind the US embassy
hostages or shipments of Iranian missles to the Taliban, Hezbollah
and Hamas. Never mind the nuclear enrichment facilities and the
Holocaust denial conferences, the antisemitic speeches and calls
for Jihad against the great Satan.

Really - I am not even making this up!

Isn't Numbers in the Torah? Gee…Sorry about that…I would have sworn it was…I'll make it up to you by quoting something ethical from the Talmud.:

Sanhedrin (59a) - "Rabbi Jochanan says: A Goi who pries into the Law is guilty to death."

If I recall correctly, a "goi" is a gentile, no? So the Talmud (containing a great deal of Jewish ethical law) says if a gentile looks into Jewish law he's to be put to death? Doesn't sound too ethical to me…Must be a typo.

Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth) - "Even the best of the Goim should be killed"

How is that ethical?…Must be another typo…I'll keep looking.

Ialkut Simoni (245c. n. 772) - "Everyone who sheds the blood of the impious is as acceptable to God as he who offers a sacrifice to God."

Lemme get this straight. Anybody that dices up an impious man is doing G-d a favour?…Nah, you're right…I'll keep looking.

Hilkhoth Akum (X, 1) - "Do not eat with idolaters, nor permit them to worship their idols; for it is written: Make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them (Deuter. ch. 7, 2). Either turn away from their idols or kill them."

So a practising Catholic who prays to a statue of mary would be an idolater, right?…Boy I sure wouldn't wanna be one of those wallking into a Synagogue!

Pesachim (49b) - "Rabbi Eliezer said: It is permitted to cut off the head of an 'idiot' [one of the People of the Earth] on the feast of the Atonement when it falls on the Sabbath. His disciples said to him: Rabbi, you should rather say to sacrifice. But he replied: By no means, for it is necessary to pray while sacrificing, and there is no need of prayers when you behead someone."

I don't have much patience for idiots either, but I wouldn't go as far as that Talmudic rabbi suggests…I guess I'm not ethical enough for that.

I'm getting tired of looking for something that seems ethical to me in the Talmud. Maybe you could point out a passage?



What it sounds like to you and what it is are obvously two different things. What makes you think I have any bias except that I disbelieve by default?



I only see a bit of religious infighting in that fatwa…I didn't see them use the word "terrorist" anywhere when talking about the Taliban's "heresy" (apostacy?) There was also nothing about Hamas or Hezbollah in it.



You should already know how I feel about hearsay. Have you forgotten my adage already? (Believe nothing that you read or hear and only half what you see with your own eyes. What remains may not be the truth, but at least you can be sure you've eliminated more than half of the lies.)



You gotta be kidding me!…I give you interviews with Iranian Jews, including an Iranian Jew in parliament. and you try to feed me THAT propaganda swill? Why should I believe you?…You just lied about there only being 8,000 Jew in Iran, which contradicts YOUR OWN LINK (which listed the pop. at 25,000 as of 2005).
Sounds like lying propaganda swill to me. Why should I believe ANYTHING you tell me? In my eyes you've lost all credibility.



I can see you were so busy laughing about it that you never answered my question, asking how Iran has perverted Islam. Nice diversionary tactic, but you don't get off that easy.



So you say, but let's have a look at his Mishnah Torah, shall we?:

Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11: "A Jew who killed a righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus 21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not executed for killing an unrighteous gentile."

Sounds more like Dr. Doom to me, but I do understand that he was a very important figure in Talmudic law, which as I understand it, the US is moving to allow, if it hasn't already.:

Maimonides ruled that it is a Jewish court -- or a court appointed by Jewish authority --that enforces obedience and passes judgment on Gentiles, as well as promulgating legislation by court order for that purpose. Maimonides further decreed that any non-Jewish nation "not subject to our jurisdiction" (tahaht yadeinu) will be the target of Jewish holy war. (Cf. Hilkhot Melakhim 8:9-10; 10:11. Also cf. Gerald J. Blidstein, "Holy War in Maimonidean Law," in Perspectives on Maimonides [Oxford, England: Oxford Univ. Press, 1991]

Frankly, I wouldn't wanna be a gentile in any of his courts; I suspect I wouldn't really get a fair trial. In fact, from the sound of things, I think I'd rather be under Sharia law; I'd probably stand a better shot at justice.



Silly me!…I musta missed that. Thanks for clearing that up.



Garbage eh?…Since you don't appreciate my thoughtful gifts of wisdom, I guess I shouldn't give you any more. What's more, I think you're being downright rude about it. Didn't they teach you that you'd catch more flies with honey than vinegar? What propaganda school did YOU go to??…I think you need some remedial classes.



It wasn't??…Oh geeze!…What did I do wrong?



I'm not sure I can trust that information…especially now.



I don't know…I'm pretty sure you are.

here is a flaw to your argument that Judea is at holy war with us Goi...

Taken from the Wikipedia on the subject of religious war...

In the Jewish religion, the expression Milkhemet Mitzvah (Hebrew: מלחמת מצווה, "commandment war") refers to a war that is both obligatory for all Jews (men and women) and limited to territory within the borders of the land of Israel. The geographical limits of Israel and conflicts with surrounding nations are detailed in the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible, especially in Numbers 34:1-15 and Ezekiel 47:13-20.

Between 1931 and 1948 the Irgun (Hebrew: ארגון) was a Zionist group that operated in Mandate Palestine. It was an offshoot of the earlier and larger Jewish paramilitary organization haHaganah. The Irgun policy was based on what was then called Revisionist Zionism founded by . According to Howard Sachar, "The policy of the new organization was based squarely on Jabotinsky's teachings: every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[53] Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.



So when we look at what you are saying and reflecting on the fact that Israel according to the torah HAD A SET BOUNDARY they were not talking about in the quotes you provided about Jewish Holy war and the Torah. It is paraphrasing like most Catholic priests are so good at with the Bible to create self serving arguments. They had a set code of Conduct WITHIN their boundaries, THEIR LAWS, in their lands and likewise they had a set of rules of conduct dealing with hostile neighbors. KICK THEIR AZZES! Note the only deterrent an Arab understands in the Middle East is superior fire power and the will to use it? Palestine sits on Jewish land. The UN and England screwed up setting up the boundaries there. And I hope the Heebs break off some Arab and Iranian azz soon!

I bet Iran will put up a great fight, all those shiny tin soldiers ready to line up and die. All those pissed of Jews with a bone to pick for all the years of providing those damn Palestinians rockets and munitions to attack Israel with and prevent peace from working there at all...

If Iran is so peaceful why do they need ballistic missiles? If they are so peaceful why do they have such a substantial military? If they are so peaceful why are they working so hard to modernize? And all the hate aimed at America and Israel, what is up with that? Not good from a "Peaceful" nation.

You seem also to overlook Jewish conduct with Non Jews who are not out to kill them.

And then on top of that there are passages added at a time when Israel was occupied during the time of the Greeks where they successfully rebelled but Anti Goium sentiments ran deep. These passages wee suppressed when the Roman took over purely becasue the Jews knew the Romans would have slaughtered them and they actually did when the Jews rebelled against Rome.

Again like I also said the Jews got over their era of blood. Now if you are referring to Hasidic Jews you are talking about a flavor of Jew even the Jews Don't like in general. They are barely tolerated in Israel as it is. They are considered the extremist fundamentalist nutcases of Israel. Hasidic Jews don't get along with other Jews! They are the ones who DO believe in this BS and other Jews consider them insane!

But since people here are so hot to say "Don't blame all of Islam over a few bad apples," well, the shoe is squarely on the other foot!

So now that we have separated the NUTTY Jews from the Creamy Jews are Jews out to get us??? Only Hasidic Jews and again they do not get sympathy points from the rest of Judea!

But GEE, Who spouts Holy War with clock work frequency? Islam. Who has so many fringe groups operating all over the place spreading fear and terror throughout the world in the name of an unseen god in the name of their worship? Islam.

OH but self defense is terrorism when Israel is shooting back!

Is this Bizzaro world I may ask?

You make some good points Andy, but I have to take issue with some of them and maybe point out a few things you may have missed. I might do that in anotther post. Right now I just wanna give you a hypothetical case to think about.

Setting religion aside for a moment, and just knowing that people are people and all think & react pretty much the same way, let's suppose you were born as a palestinian muslim in Palestine….No let's scratch Palestine altogether…

Let's say you inherited and live in the house of your father and you are leading a relatively happy life…you get along with the neighbours, the whole bit. Now the Mayor's son-in-law wants to live in your house because his great grandfather lived in it many years ago. You know the kid, because he has relatives on your street that you get along with quite well; in fact you babysit each other's kids.

The problem is, the Mayor's son-in-law (let's call him Al) really wants to live in your house. Moreover, he's got a pretty big family of his own, so it's not like you can just put him up in a spare bedroom (which you've already done because he needed a place to stay anyway), he wants more than half your house; in fact if he had his way, he'd rather you moved out altogether.

Now the Mayor has a lot of pull and he actually convinces city council to partition your house so Al and his family can move in and have over half of it all to themselves.

A lot of things would probably run thru your mind…Does Al & family have a legitimate claim to the house because his grandparent's once lived there?…Does city hall have the right to divvy up what has always been your house?

Whatever your feelings are, city hall isn't listening to your protests and considers it a done deal. Al brings in his family.

What are you gonna do?… be nice and move you & your family into the basement?…Decide it's not right and try to kick out Al and his family?

Suppose you do the latter and Al & his family kicks right back and takes half your basement in the bargain?…Are you gonna give up now, or are you gonna turn into a "terrorist" and try to get him outta there?

Actually, the taking of life according to Jewish law is apparently
completely unjustifiable except in the case of self-defense and
capital punishment for murder. Even in the case of murder, Jewish
courts ruled long ago that since there is a possibility of error
that the error would be so serious that capital punishment was
made to be essentially prohibited.

From the Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism#Contemporary_attitudes_towards_capital_punishment

Contemporary attitudes towards capital punishment

Leading rabbis in Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism tend to hold that the death penalty is a correct and just punishment in theory, but they hold that it should not generally be used (or not used at all) in practice. In practice the application of such a punishment can only be carried out by humans whose system of justice is nearly perfect, a situation which has not existed for some time or never existed at all.

Rabbinical courts have given up the ability to inflict any kind of physical punishment, and such punishments are left to the civil court system to administer. But the modern institution of the death penalty is opposed by the major rabbinical organizations of Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism
Reform Judaism

Since 1959, the Central Conference of American Rabbis (CCAR) and the Union for Reform Judaism (URJ) have formally opposed the death penalty. The CCAR resolved in 1979 that "both in concept and in practice, Jewish tradition found capital punishment repugnant" and there is no persuasive evidence "that capital punishment serves as a deterrent to crime."[3]
Conservative Judaism

In Conservative Judaism the death penalty was the subject of a responsum by its Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, which has gone on record as opposing the modern institution of the death penalty:

The Talmud ruled out the admissibility of circumstantial evidence in cases which involved a capital crime. Two witnesses were required to testify that they saw the action with their own eyes. A man could not be found guilty of a capital crime through his own confession or through the testimony of immediate members of his family. The rabbis demanded a condition of cool premeditation in the act of crime before they would sanction the death penalty; the specific test on which they insisted was that the criminal be warned prior to the crime, and that the criminal indicate by responding to the warning, that he is fully aware of his deed, but that he is determined to go through with it. In effect this did away with the application of the death penalty. The rabbis were aware of this, and they declared openly that they found capital punishment repugnant to them… There is another reason which argues for the abolition of capital punishment. It is the fact of human fallibility. Too often we learn of people who were convicted of crimes and only later are new facts uncovered by which their innocence is established. The doors of the jail can be opened, in such cases we can partially undo the injustice. But the dead cannot be brought back to life again. We regard all forms of capital punishment as barbaric and obsolete.
—Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser, Statement on capital punishment, 1960. Proceedings of the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards 1927-1970, Volume III, pp. 1537-1538

Orthodox Judaism

Orthodox Rabbi Yosef Edelstein writes:

So, at least theoretically, the Torah can be said to be pro-capital punishment. It is not morally wrong, in absolute terms, to put a murderer to death… However, things look rather different when we turn our attention to the practical realization of this seemingly harsh legislation. You may be aware that it was exceedingly difficult, in practice, to carry out the death penalty in Jewish society... I think it's clear that with regard to Jewish jurisprudence, the capital punishment outlined by the Written and Oral Torah, and as carried out by the greatest Sages from among our people (who were paragons of humility and humanity and not just scholarship, needless to say), did not remotely resemble the death penalty in modern America (or Texas). In theory, capital punishment is kosher; it's morally right, in the Torah's eyes. But we have seen that there was great concern—expressed both in the legislation of the Torah, and in the sentiments of some of our great Sages — regarding its practical implementation. It was carried out in ancient Israel, but only with great difficulty. Once in seven years; not 135 in five and a half.
—Rabbi Yosef Edelstein, Director of the Savannah Kollel

Orthodox Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan writes:

In practice, however, these punishments were almost never invoked, and existed mainly as a deterrent and to indicate the seriousness of the sins for which they were prescribed. The rules of evidence and other safeguards that the Torah provides to protect the accused made it all but impossible to actually invoke these penalties… the system of judicial punishments could become brutal and barbaric unless administered in an atmosphere of the highest morality and piety. When these standards declined among the Jewish people, the Sanhedrin… voluntarily abolished this system of penalties.
—(Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Handbook of Jewish Thought, Volume II, pp. 170-71






Your bias is obvious. You take extreme examples like bible stories
and attempt to define Jewish law without regard for the fact that
Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible but
have already interpreted these stories as parables and not in a
literal sense. Instead of researching it as far as the Wiki article
which I cited above, instead bible stories are presented in an
overt attempt to smear the religion. That is bias.



Just showing that many Muslim scholars excoriate terrorist activities. There are many more instances where Muslim scholars
say that killing and murder of innocent civilians is wrong under
any circumstances and I am sure that most Muslims would agree.





So all the news reports and films of radical Islamists calling for
death to Jews, death to America etc. are all hearsay!? This might
also be bias...






The population of Jews in Iran has gone down by 17,000 or so since
2005 because of the brutal repression of Jews in Iran. You did not
not make any effort to check the figures yet you call me a liar.

My source is the most recent Iranian census:

Islamic Republic (since 1979)

At the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there were approximately 140,000–150,000 Jews living in Iran, the historical center of Persian Jewry. Over 85% have since migrated, with the immigration accelerating after the 1979 Islamic Revolution, when the population dropped from 100,000 to about 40,000.[25] Following the Iranian Revolution, some 30,000 Iranian Jews immigrated to Israel, while many others went to the United States and Western Europe.

On March 16, 1979, Habib Elghanian, the honorary leader of the Jewish community, was arrested on charges of "corruption", "contacts with Israel and Zionism", "friendship with the enemies of God", "warring with God and his emissaries", and "economic imperialism". He was tried by an Islamic revolutionary tribunal, sentenced to death, and executed on May 8,[22][26] one of 17 Iranian Jews executed as spies since the revolution.[27]

Estimates of the Jewish population in Iran vary. In mid- and late 1980s, it was estimated at 20,000–30,000, rising to around 35,000 in mid-1990s.[28] The current Jewish population of Iran is 8,756 according to the most recent Iranian census. [29]

see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran

I expect that the films of the Jews showing how nicely they are
treated in Iran are old and staged.




Since Iran brutally represses their own population with hijab
police, apostasy charges, severe punishment for criticizing the
Iranian radical Islamic theocracy etc...Since Iran has a well
documented history of being one of the worlds worst sponsors of
terrorism war crimes....I figured that those references would
justify to show how Iran has perverted Islam.

Iran's abuse towards women is just one obvious example which shows
how silly is is to suggest that there is perversion of Islam or
repression in Iran as you suggest.






Actually, if you read the views on capital punishment given above
you would see how seriously Jews actually take the issue. Your
chances of fair treatment by Jews are pretty good.

Are you claiming to be a Mishneh Torah expert?
More so than leaders of all three branches of Judaism?


Maimonides did not advocate capital punishment for even the most
severe situations actually.

Capital punishment in classical sources

The harshness of the death penalty indicated the seriousness of the crime. Jewish philosophers argue that the whole point of corporal punishment was to serve as a reminder to the community of the severe nature of certain acts. This is why, in Jewish law, the death penalty is more of a principle than a practice. The numerous references to a death penalty in the Torah underscore the severity of the sin rather than the expectation of death. This is bolstered by the standards of proof required for application of the death penalty, which has always been extremely stringent (Babylonian Talmud Makkoth 7b). Because the standards of proof were so high, it was well-nigh impossible to inflict the death penalty. The Mishnah (tractate Makkoth 1:10) outlines the views of several prominent first-century CE Rabbis on the subject:

A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says that this extends to a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon say: Had we been in the Sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death. Rabban Simeon ben Gamaliel says: they would have multiplied shedders of blood in Israel.

According to the Talmud forty years before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE (i.e. in 30 CE) the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment.[citation needed]

The 12th-century Jewish legal scholar Maimonides stated that "It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death." Maimonides argued that executing a defendant on anything less than absolute certainty would lead to a slippery slope of decreasing burdens of proof, until we would be convicting merely "according to the judge's caprice." Maimonides was concerned about the need for the law to guard itself in public perceptions, to preserve its majesty and retain the people's respect.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism

But since you are an expert at Mishneh Torah you can probably pull
some random quote out of context to prove that all the other Jewish
scholars throughout history have made some mistake in their
interpretation!







It's OK anyone could make the mistake of finding a rogue booklet
that was not widely distributed and attribute it to someone who
didn't write it and didn't read it until later.





I go to my remedial classes every day in the school of life.
Truthfully, I will get out the honey. Never went to propaganda
school. And, I do appreciate your thoughtful gifts of wisdom.







It was purely a personal skewer but no biggie.



Nothing wrong with it. Just video evidence of the situation in Iran.



Well the citations are there.
That is how you know it is not completely made up.

Whoops!

Should have read:




Since Iran brutally represses their own population with hijab
police, apostasy charges, severe punishment for criticizing the
Iranian radical Islamic theocracy etc...Since Iran has a well
documented history of being one of the worlds worst sponsors of
terrorism war crimes....I figured that those references would
justify to show how Iran has perverted Islam.

Iran's abuse towards women is just one obvious example which shows
how silly is is to suggest that there is no perversion of Islam or
repression in Iran as you suggest.



Here is some more commentary about radical Islam and official support of
terrorist activities by Iran which I contend are a perversion of
Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state_terrorism

Since the declaration of the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979, the government of Iran has been accused by members of the international community of funding, providing equipment, weapons, training and giving sanctuary to terrorists.[1]

The United States State Department describes Iran as an “active state sponsor of terrorism.”[2] US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice elaborated stating, “Iran has been the country that has been in many ways a kind of central banker for terrorism in important regions like Lebanon through Hezbollah in the Middle East, in the Palestinian Territories, and we have deep concerns about what Iran is doing in the south of Iraq.”[1]

See also testimony before Congress on the subject:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/testimony/LevittTestimony20120725.pdf

also the list of Iranian terrorist activities cited by the
Council on Foreign Relations

http://www.cfr.org/iran/state-sponsors-iran/p9362#p2

The U.S. government first listed Iran as a terrorist sponsor in January 1984. Among Iran's alleged activities have been the following:

- Observers say Iran had prior knowledge of Hezbollah attacks, such as the 1988 kidnapping and murder of Colonel William Higgins, a U.S. Marine involved in a UN observer mission in Lebanon, and the 1992 and 1994 bombings of Jewish cultural institutions in Argentina.

- Iran still has a price on the head of the Indian-born British novelist Salman Rushdie for what Iranian leaders call blasphemous writings about Islam in his 1989 novel The Satanic Verses.

- U.S. officials say Iran supported the group behind the 1996 truck bombing of Khobar Towers, a U.S. military residence in Saudi Arabia, which killed nineteen U.S. servicemen.

- Military officials say numerous attacks since 2001 on U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan, and coalition forces in Iraq, have been attributed to Iranian-made weapons.

- A set of classified documents leaked by the website WikiLeaks.org in July 2010 reports extensive collaboration between Iran and the Taliban, Afghan warlords, and al-Qaeda, but all the claims have not been corroborated (Guardian).

- Iran has also been blamed for attacks in Balochistan in Pakistan.

- In April 2011, the United States and the European Union accused the Quds Force of providing equipment and support to help the Syrian regime suppress revolts in Syria.

- In October 2011, Washington accused the Quds Force of plotting to assassinate the Saudi ambassador (NYT) to the United States, and plotting to bomb the Israeli Embassy in Washington and the Saudi and Israeli Embassies in Argentina.

Precisely Ducky!

It really should be simpler explaining this phenomenon to an American, but i fear we may need to draw some pictures for true comprehension? That or coming to the realization that having "an agenda" trumps all common sense.

this is what many of us would call a loaded argument. Frankly like any other person if he offered enough money for me to move then it is in my interest to take the money and run. But if it is just a You pack up and leave moment then I would eventually wind up killing someone up to and including the mayor's entire family down to the cousins. THAT'S LIFE IN THE MIDDLE EAST! I know a lot of Saudis, Pakistanis, Afghans, Syrians, etc. and hear their reasons for coming here. They FEUD like crazy there!

For one we don't kill one another here with the clockwork regularity they do over there. Yes we have crime and murder but not on the scale they have there. the crime is different and the crime leaders wear uniforms most of the time. Almost all of the people I know from those nations left for religious reasons.

Allow me to make a proposed argument for you. You live next to some ignorant trailer trash. Every weekend they get drunk and start firing guns off in the air and your house keeps getting hit. You ask them to stop the gunfire and they tell you to go fucq off. You call the sheriff (UN) who shows up and asks them politely to stop shooting and they agree they will but that very same weekend bullets are flying through your house again. And you keep calling the Sheriff and he keeps asking them to behave and leaves. And then one day one of your kids is hit, AND KILLED while the yahoos next door are having the time of their life being a bunch of drunk careless azzholes. What do you do?

This is what Andy would do. I would take careful aim from a covered position with good cover and a good view and the first person with a gun in his hand is going to die when I put the first round right through their chest. Fucq the head shot. I want a hit with a lot of splatter and maybe some screaming. Then the second person with a gun gets it. And from there I work targets by priority. Who among them do I hate the most. Anyone going for a vehicle gets priority fast. At that point no survivors. I will let a jury argue among themselves if what I did was self defense or not. Better judged by 12 than carried by six. if you ae going to make war make it total or don't make it at all!

The validity of ANY argument raised by any Muslim or Islamic lost all credibility on these points!

1. the declaration of a Holy War directly in their scriptures.
2. the command to lie to infidels since they are at war with us directly in their scriptures.
3. the repeated displays of Islamic conduct within and outside their nations.
4. the repeated breaking of treaties and cease fires.
5. the manipulation of the truth they like all dictators and oppressors engage in.
6. the raw ignorance and lack of education and the lack of understanding what these people worship.
7. the fact they build a mosque on every other person's holy ground engaging in a form of idolitry which is against their religion supposedly.
8. intentionally coloring education and promoting ignorance.
9. becoming violent when their religion is questioned.

AT LEAST I HAVE MET AND ARGUED WITH CATHOLIC PRIESTS WHO WOULD ADMIT THEY HAD NO ANSWER FOR ME TO MY QUESTIONS AND THAT POINTS I RAISED REALLY DO SHOW A MORAL WEAKNESS IN THE IDEALS OF CHRISTIANITY. That admission to me is HUGE considering that these men are men of their faiths! I even had long discussions with Coptic Christians and even though I challenged their ideals they still told me that some of my questions they could not provide me a good answer to. What is even bigger is when I leave them admitting I did indeed touch a moral dilemma in their beliefs. A Muslim that sees the lies of their faith usually leaves their land and turns from Islam as fast as they can.

You see Israel sits as Able among Cain. The whole Islamic Holy war is an order for BROTHER TO MURDER BROTHER! If that is a core of a faith then what is wrong with the picture I see now tolerating this faith to exist? Bear in mind I have a distinct problem with the story of Cain and Able. If Cain was a tender of the fields he was not a LAZY PERSON! Farming is hard work! The favoritism god shows between the two is BAD PARENTING! When the gravity of the story settled in on me I realized God is FUCQUED UP! At least the God WE came up with. And the God is Islam is just as Fucqed up! So worship a flawed and fucqed up God?


Not me... My God is FAR bigger than the God of Man and I have accepted the fact I will never fully comprehend or understand what that god is. And MY GOD HAS NO FACE! Any person with a white beard claiming to be god in front of me is going to get a pinch on the nose! Come to think of it if most of you who think you know God knew him the way I do you would kill yourself feeling less than a speck on a mote on a dot in a drop of water in the pacific ocean. You would come to realize in the BIG SCOPE OF THINGS NONE OF US AND WHAT WE DO MATTER!


Live with that knowledge!