It's only funny when equality is taken out of context...Even then, it's only moderately funny...

To put equality into proper context, lets start with the definition...

The state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability.

Notice the use of the coordinating conjunction OR as opposed to AND?...

When taken IN CONTEXT equality refers to rights and entitlements, not penises and vaginas....For instance, having an equal DEGREE of bodily integrity and an equal DEGREE of autonomy...OR (there's that pesky little coordinating conjunction again) equal RANK in specific areas such as voting (see Women's Suffrage), holding public office, working, receiving equal pay for equal work, owning property, serving in the military, and being party to a legal contract... OR (darn,there it is again!) having equal RANK and VALUE in marital, parental, and religious rights and entitlements.....

Leigh, and msharmony

You are both by far superior to me in education. I aint that good with grammer or spellin as you is. But that's ok with me. I don't desire anymore to be superior in those areas. I am actually kind of bright but have always had a challenge with spelling. I use to feel judged and inferior by it. OK some folks do judge people on this criteria. Key word there is 'feel' (yes I will get to the point). See it doesn't really matter if others judge me unless I put value on what others think. And sometimes we put other peoples values over our own.

This is were all hell breaks loose. We MUST value ourselves more than care what others think. I know now why my spelling sucks. I know how to change it. And if I put the time in to re-study English grammar and spelling, it will get better. I fully know it could get to be superior to others. But I would do it because I want to and not because of some fear of what others think.



My point?

This is were feminism, (and many other movements) fail. It doesn't feed off a need; it feeds off of ladies feelings of being inadequate, unimportant, undervalued, inferior, weak, and disrespected. It actually creates these feelings in ladies and society. It is its own problem.

To accomplish its mission, feminism tells other ladies who are content on being a house wife or 'just' a mans wife that she is weak, uneducated, unimportant, inferior and less than she can be.

Next, feminism attempts to create fairness. This sounds good right? Here is the problem. What part of the world is fair? It's not. The world is self driven. Its power hungry. it seeks its own survival. Feminism attempts to create the impossible. Fairness in an unfair world.

Like many other moments. In the end feminism, in its attempt to create farness becomes self driven, power hungry and seeks it own survival. It becomes unbalanced and unfair.

My divorce recovery counselor put it this way. Fairness is a childish concept you need to get past.

I agree with him in part. I stopped expecting the world to be fair but I chose to still be fair to others. That puts me inline with my values and helps me stop putting the world’s values before mine.

Back to the point.

I submit to you and msharmony (and lots of other people, probably all of us) that your fight is more about your own feelings than for the rights of all ladies of the world. That the way the world was balanced at the time of your birth had little to do with how you feel. That someone or something along the way planted a seed of opportunity to feel inferior and create in you the need to change the world. When what really needs to change for your peace and happiness is inside and won’t change an ounce with the world changing.

That’s the lie of the promise of the feminist movement. That women will feel more empowered when it accomplishes its goal of equality. Feminism cannot fix the inner feelings that are binding you.

I actually take the time to write this because I find myself caring about you (both of you). Not to argue with you. But to share the lessons I had to learn to find peace. To stop waiting for the world to change for me to find joy. The world will go on. Bad things will happen,. Unfairness will rule. Power hungry people and governments will take advantage. Special interest groups will put there needs above everyone else’s. This won’t change. And while belonging to a special interest like Feminism gives one a sense of power, control and authority, it will always be just a Band-Aid to hidden inner feelings that won’t truly be healed until faced and accepted.

exactly feminism and women's movement has never tried to claim that men and women are the same. Simple an equal rights thing. so the whole nuts and bolts thing is pretty stupid sounding.....sorry .. just sayin'

We all have our own opinions, definations & ways of living. I don't have to agree with you & you don't have to agree with me. We all need to simply RESPECT eachother & be decent.

I like a strong willed LADY. Respect her right to be that way.

Now if that is "FEMINISM", so be it.

I'm all for equality, so feminism (which is essentially just an endorsement of the equal rights of women) is a-ok. Radical feminism on the other hand feels less about equality and more about retribution, which I'm not so keen on (well, not at all really). I'd rather judge people as 'people' first and foremost before I start looking at gender-related factors.

it is fed by a need for equal pay for equal work, the right to vote (it wasn't that long ago that women could not vote), legal equality and the other things leigh mentioned, and to end rape, and debasement of women within a legal framework as much as possible.

Hence EEO laws that make workplace sexual advances - inappropriate sexual comments questionable and or illegal (under some circumstances). Those EEO rules protect men also, but it is largely women who fought to provide that protection through the women's movement and the civil rights movement a decade earlier. But it has required a large body of legislation and a lot of time to earn equity and protection from unwanted advances and comments even after certain social/legal equalities were achieved - such as voting. It should not have taken any time at all. The fact that women have had to fight to be treated respectfully is a damm shame.

Even if you are not one of the men who would behave disrespectfully or illegally to a woman, there are plenty of men who have. What I think is that we never should have had to go to lengths we have had to go to for our equal protection and equality.

I do agree with you that a woman should be able to stay at home and raise her family without experiencing a feminist backlash if that is the value of the couple. I know, I did that, and took in my fair share of stupid comments....from other women. Most men seemed pretty supportive.

and before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I am fully aware that some women do things wrong too and are not perfect, but we are specifically on the topic of feminism here

exactly we are people - deserving of the same rights and freedoms as anyone. both men and women are equally guilty of gender stereotyping and both probably equally confused in this time of evolving gender roles. But a lot of that evolution is good.

I agree retribution solves nothing. How can men AND women be enlightened to the original goals of equal pay for example if someone doesn't say something? I think the anger toward men by a FEW in the women's movements was simply an inability to teach with love.

All well said Sweetest, but a couple of things you mentioned stand out for me...Rape and debasement are two areas that still need improvement...Debasement can and often does rest on "he said she said" making provability extremely difficult, especially in the workplace where continuous contact with a harasser then becomes unavoidable...In the case of rape, improvement is needed in areas of "how" cases are prosecuted (as in NOT placing the burden of proof on the victim) and in areas of guaranteed post rape psychological treatment expense for victims once a guilty verdict is reached....

What this and similar threads seem to be pointing to is men are either oblivious, or pretending to be oblivious, to the legitimate reasons for the feminist movement as it pertains to equal rights and as it pertains to content within the framework of the movement....
This failure or refusal to understand and accept is what is making the process of obtaining equality harder than it needs to be for everyone....

agreed. it's all about respect and equal protection under the law. As I said the body of law created to provide even what women have now should not have needed to happen...I do think that men will listen....those who really want relationships with women - it's the mysogynists that I just pretty much give up on and refer to the law.

I think it is also important to remind the fellas that equal protections will benefit them too...that men's rights also need addressed where necessary as do all HUMAN rights. I am sure many have women who they love who they do not want to see harmed.

Cheeky smooch and posies

you are much more enlightened than many and I dont consider myself a feminist at all because I believe men and women were MEANT to be different

however, I think there is often the mistake made that civil fights are about how people feel,, and indeed some are (imho) invoked and promoted to force people to believe they have to feel a certain way about others,,,

but then there is legitimate civil discource and change that stems from a desire for equal 'rights',

things like equal pay and equal opportunity arent about how people feel so much as they are about mandating that peoples personal feelings not interfere with ones equal american rights

as an example, I dont really care if my boss doesnt like black people, so long as that dislike remains his problem and not a barrier to him paying me according to my work and not my race,,,

in criminal cases, the burden of proof has ALWAYS Been on the accuser,,,,thats equal treatment actually,,,

in civil cases, its a much laxer requirement

You're misunderstanding the point....How cases are tried in terms of insinuation and innuendo when defense lawyers try to make jurors believe the rape was invited or at the very least welcomed....

thats their job,, rape is a tricky business as it is often he said she said

and because she can lie as well as he can lie,,,the accuser has to have the evidence to back it up without a 'reasonable' doubt

I agree, for the victim who doesnt have a strong case, it sucks

but for those innocent men who are wrongly accused by someone who therefore has not a strong case,, its how its supposed to be

Like I said you to misunderstand.....For a rape case to reach trial, evidence must be strong...DNA has made false accusations extremely difficult...There is no need to browbeat victims to ensure rapists receive due process...In my feministic opinion of course.....

dna only proves sexual activity,, not rape

rape is very hard to prove and should be like any other felony (imho)

because crying rape is too easy and lives become ruined too easily behind it,,,,,

it shouldnt be a given that it happened just because the woman said so,, there should be an expectation of evidence,,because its such a serious charge,,,

(again, imho, and a two time victim of sexual assault myself)

This seems to be the reason some men have issues with women being equal. When women are seen as equal, some men start feeling inadequate, unimportant, undervalued, inferior, weak, and disrespected.

DNA not only makes false accusation harder, it makes proving rape easier....Crying rape is not that easy....Who said it should be a given?...Sorry to hear that again, but it does not alter facts....

it really only makes it harder if the suspect denies knowing or having sex with the female

otherwise it proves nothing in regards to rape,,,

crying rape can be easy as long as there has been a sexual encounter

as is the case with 'date rape',,,its strictly about whom the jury believes more,, and the history of both parties will be (rightfully) brought up,,especially in lieu of any evidence besides dna that proves the sex they both already admitted to having

Because I was talking about rape trials, this is all moot...Defense lawyers too often disparage and malign rape victims in an attempt to get rapists off...It is my opinion improvement in that area is needed...