Topic: Homosexuals and Islam
AndyBgood's photo
Sat 10/20/12 12:37 PM
Why the hell is my grammar so damn bad? I think my computer is mad at me or something...


Yep...offtopic

CowboyGH's photo
Sat 10/20/12 09:23 PM






Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.

AndyBgood's photo
Sat 10/20/12 09:45 PM







Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 10/21/12 10:51 AM








Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.

AndyBgood's photo
Sun 10/21/12 11:44 AM









Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 10/21/12 05:49 PM










Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.


Animals do have a choice when instincts kick in. The instincts are purely knowledge of things they need to do or not do. They personally choose to do them or not. They are not robots pre-programmed to do specific things at a specific time. And your horny dog example, has very little to do with what we're talking about here. If you turn the tables on that, their instincts are to mate, to procreate. You trying to stop two dogs from mating, you are trying to stop their total existence. If some strange say alien race came here and took over the world and they tried to stop us from having babies. Would you not also try to fight and save the human race? Or would you just lightly let it go and stop trying to have sex?

Animals hang in herds/packs because there is power in numbers. A group of 500 will always over power a single being and or say a group of 5 or so.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 10/21/12 05:55 PM










Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...




And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?


I know for a fact Adolf is not in Heaven as of now, the dead are waiting Christ's return, thus we are told "The dead in Christ, shall rise first" But other then that, I have absolutely no idea if Hitler will make it to Heaven or not, for I am not God. I know of not one person that will go to Heaven and I know of not one person who will not go to Heaven. I know not who will or won't go.

All I know is the scriptures tell us sleeping with another of the same gender is a sin. That is not saying those that sleep with the same gender will not rejoice in the glory of Heaven, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Again, that is totally up to the judgement of God.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 10/21/12 06:01 PM










Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...



And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...


God is no hypocrite, nor has he robbed anyone of their free will. Just because we have the ability to choose does not mean we can or should do it. That is all free will is, is choice to do something or not do something. The outcome or reaction to the action has no connection to free will. As in, if one is punished for doing something, that does not take away or make them having free will moot. They still had the ability to choose to do that, again that is all free will is. Would be quite pointless to have a "judgement" if there was nothing to be judged on. How can one be judged on something they did, when they were programmed to do it? They couldn't be and are not.

Again, even IF someone is attracted to the same gender, that is no a sin. The actions that proceed that could be eg., two people of the same gender having sex.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 10/21/12 06:03 PM











Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...



And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...


God is no hypocrite, nor has he robbed anyone of their free will. Just because we have the ability to choose does not mean we can or should do it. That is all free will is, is choice to do something or not do something. The outcome or reaction to the action has no connection to free will. As in, if one is punished for doing something, that does not take away or make them having free will moot. They still had the ability to choose to do that, again that is all free will is. Would be quite pointless to have a "judgement" if there was nothing to be judged on. How can one be judged on something they did, when they were programmed to do it? They couldn't be and are not.

Again, even IF someone is attracted to the same gender, that is no a sin. The actions that proceed that could be eg., two people of the same gender having sex.


And further then that, even if there are rules/laws to abide by. That doesn't take away your free will. For again, you have the choice to obey or not obey.

AndyBgood's photo
Sun 10/21/12 10:19 PM
You again digress to scriptures after all the quoting here? Likewise you still do not understand the difference between instinctual vs. rational.

Rape is not exactly instinctual. It is more of a choice. It is also a reproductive strategy in nature. There are mammals that rape other animals besides humans. Which side of the gender fence is a choice and instinct. The sexual drive itself is instinct, tab A goes into slot B and babies come out. That is just the core of sexual congress. Horney deer are only thinking two things, kill all opposition and hump females. I can think of a number of animal just like this. Some humans are likewise just like this, 'your female are mine and my females are mine.'


Likewise herd behavior is similar to fish schooling. There is no way an Anchovie stands a chance hanging out with Yellow Tangs. But you get a thousand Anchovies and you have a silver blob that confuses predators so they cannot single out fish. Likewise with Zebras on the plains. Deer in the woods. And even many bird species lie Starlings. You ever heard of a Passenger Pigeon? Its a recently extinct species. You know what did them in? Numerical Depletion. Turns out that in order to breed they had to have a mass orgy and if the flock got too small they just stopped breeding. The last few birds died off in captivity in failed breeding programs that realized too late what they had done to kill of an entire species. Most of them were EATEN! Be my guest and look it up. Here is a blatant case where the pigeons could have made a choice and evidently INSTINCTUAL PROGRAMMING prevented them from over coming their instinct and they died out when their numbers fell too much.

And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?

One man's sin is another man's virtue.

Geah, I can't remember who said that quote!

Conrad_73's photo
Mon 10/22/12 01:01 AM












Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...



And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...


God is no hypocrite, nor has he robbed anyone of their free will. Just because we have the ability to choose does not mean we can or should do it. That is all free will is, is choice to do something or not do something. The outcome or reaction to the action has no connection to free will. As in, if one is punished for doing something, that does not take away or make them having free will moot. They still had the ability to choose to do that, again that is all free will is. Would be quite pointless to have a "judgement" if there was nothing to be judged on. How can one be judged on something they did, when they were programmed to do it? They couldn't be and are not.

Again, even IF someone is attracted to the same gender, that is no a sin. The actions that proceed that could be eg., two people of the same gender having sex.


And further then that, even if there are rules/laws to abide by. That doesn't take away your free will. For again, you have the choice to obey or not obey.
yep,soooome Choice,Comply or Burn Forever!
Free will like Government allows you!
Do as I tell you,or your *** is Grass and I'll be the Lawnmover!

Or as they say in the Islands,Dog ate your Lunch and Cat drank your Milk!

Conrad_73's photo
Mon 10/22/12 01:02 AM












Abrogation and Jihad

How does the theological debate over abrogation impact contemporary policy formulation? While not all terrorism is rooted in Islam, the religion is an enabler for many. It is wrong to assume that more extreme interpretations of religion are illegitimate. Statements that there is no compulsion in religion and that jihad is primarily about internal struggle and not about holy war may receive applause in university lecture halls and diplomatic board rooms, but they misunderstand the importance of abrogation in Islamic theology. It is important to acknowledge that what university scholars believe, and what most Muslims—or more extreme Muslims—believe are two different things. For many Islamists and radical Muslims, abrogation is real and what the West calls terror is, indeed, just.

During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists,[52] and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar.[53] Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.

Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Prior to receiving "Ultimatum," Muhammad had reached agreements with various Arab tribes. But when God gave Muhammad a revelation (2:190-2), Muhammad felt justified in breaking his cease-fire. For Isma'il bin Kathir (1301-73), a student of Ibn Taymiyya and an influential Qur'an interpreter in his own right, it is clear: As jihad involves death and the killing of men, God draws attention to the fact that disbelief, polytheism, and avoidance of God's path as shown by the Qur'an are worse than killing them.[59] This creates license for future generations of Muslims to kill non-Muslims solely on the basis of their refusal to accept Islam.

According to Ibn Kathir in his commentary on Chapter 9:5, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam. Ibn ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, one of the hadith transmitters, quoted Muhammad as saying, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." He testified that Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, an authentic transmitter of hadiths, said that the verse of the sword "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." ‘Awfi cited Ibn ‘Abbas, who argued that "Ultimatum" obviated earlier peace treaties.[60] The Shafi‘i school took this as a justification for killing anyone who abandoned prayer and for fighting anyone who refused to pay increased religious minority taxes.[61]

Such interpretations resonate. Muhammad Sa‘id Ramadan al-Buti, a contemporary Al-Azhar University scholar, wrote that "the verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war, which is demanded in Islamic law, is not a defensive war because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of God, the construction of Islamic society, and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth regardless of the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive holy war."[62]

Defensive warfare in Islam is nothing but a phase of the Islamic mission that the Prophet practiced. After that, it was followed by another phase, that is, calling all people to embrace Islam. Even for People of the Book, there can be no role except conversion to Islam or subjugation to Muslim rule. Hence, Muhammad's statement, "They would not invade you, but you invade them."[63]
Modern Revisionism of Jihad

David Powers, a well-known researcher of classical Islam, agreed that 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: "But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way."[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

Still, no verse is more frequently cited by contemporary Muslims preachers and analysts to depict Islam as peaceful and compassionate as 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." For Sheikh Abdur Rahman, the chief justice of Pakistan, this verse is one of the most important, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind.[65]

Muhammad offered this verse in his first year of residence in Medina when he needed the Jews' support. Nahhas, with the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, said: "Scholars differed concerning 2:256. Some said it has been abrogated by 9:73 for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fight those that had no alternative but to surrender to Islam. Other scholars said that 2:256 had not been abrogated concerning the People of the Book. It is only the infidels who are compelled to embrace Islam."[66] Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73 but rather interprets 9:73 as a case of postponing the fight until Muslims become strong. He argues that when Muslims were weak, God commanded them to be patient.[67]

This is also the case of sura 9:29, which deals with Jews and Christians. Fighting them is mentioned after the clarification regarding fighting the idolaters (9:5). This verse (9:29) was revealed when Muhammad was commanded to fight the Byzantines and prepared the expedition to Tabuk. Ibn Kathir declared: The order is to fight the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah (protection tax) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all prophets commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him even though he is the "mightiest of all messengers because it suits their desires and lusts, and because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all prophets."

Ibn Kathir continues: "This honorable verse was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book. After the pagans were defeated, the people entered God's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control."[68]

The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da'wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur'an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam


Abrogation- this is a concept which interests me. For example, I had previous asked people their opinion on Maricon, as a foolower of Paul, he stated, as many Xians do, that Jesus is a new covenant and that he ABROGATED the law of the Old Testament. He gave two new commandments. However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



However, what I constantly see is Xians falling back on the law to spew hate on people, ie- gays, etc. It appears to me that humans are naturally hated and violent and will use any excuse or abrogation to fulfill this natual tendency? And your opinion on this is?



"Christians" spew no hatred on anyone. Just cause one points out a "fault" in another, does that mean they hate them? Or are lovingly trying to lend a guiding hand? It is just as "wrong" to be gay as it is to lie or steal or even treat others disrespectfully and not so much in a "loving" way. And even though in the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin, does not mean homosexuals are any less of a person, or any more "evil" of a person. This is where "Judge not, less ye be judged" plays it's part.

We may not agree with their choice, but all in all if it is a true follower of God, Jesus Christ, then they will not treat a homosexual any different then they would say, their preacher, or brothers/sisters in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

We are all God's, regardless if we are gay, black, white, straight, tall, short, ect. We were all bought with a price. Now not saying everyone and all will have the pleasure in the glory's of Heaven, that is solely up to the discretion of God. But nevertheless, we all have our own fair chance at having a piece of that gift.

Think this "homosexual" thing has been blown way out of proportion. Especially with the increasing publicised side of homosexuality.

Think part of it is and why people frown on this, is that in our culture and or country/laws in itself, we the people make those. So with laws against homosexuality or just cultural beliefs/feelings towards the preference, those can be disputed and worked out to better "suite" anyone and everyone. But that's not the case with God's laws. He is not running a democracy so to speak. And it offends those that this conflicts with their wants.

And just for record, this is not a bash or anything specific to do with homosexuality. Just a general view of what I see.

Homosexuality is HARDWIRED,NOT a PREFERENCE!
You Guys really need to progress into the 21th Century!


Homosexuality is a preference. Yes they have more chromosomes or whatever to influence that preference. But nevertheless, it is a choice.

Being attracted to the same gender and homosexuality don't entirely mean the same thing. Being attracted to a person is not a choice, it is natural. But homosexuality in itself is the act of having sex between two or more of the same gender. That is where the choice lays.


Sorry but I have to disagree. Homosexuality IS INDEED HARDWIRED to us thanks to a compelling urge to reproduce that is so powerful that satiation comes from any form of release. EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THIS PLANET HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL! Some of it is environment. Personally I cannot resort to Homosexuality for "release" now does it fit for my desired mating. I have to me with Females ONLY myself. Show me one single species of Mammal that does not have any homosexuality in it at all and I will commend you for doing something science has yet to do!

Some humans are more in control of themselves than others.

Please tell us none of you masturbate either! I want to call somebody a liar today!


Aye, but that is impossible. "Homosexuality", is the actual sexual action. Making any action or not making any action is purely a choice. Heck, down to even eating or breathing. You don't truly have to eat or breath, you would die, but you don't HAVE to, thus it is a choice. Same with homosexuality, they are choosing to sleep with someone of the same gender, that is their choice. REGARDLESS if they are attracted to the opposite sex or not, the action(s) committed between the two people are a choice.

And that is why God "judges" one on that action, for the action(s) committed between the two partners is a choice made. Not cause they had to.. but because they chose to.


A) Blame God for the programming.

B) A rather fallacious cyclical argument. People argue that animals have no choice but when I have seen three male rabbits all placed in the same cage and immediately start humping one another you want to tell me they have a choice? Please, all a penis knows is "find a warm wet hole. Gender is not important in that baser program. Likewise I have witness gay male dogs doing what gay male dogs do. And Dolphins? Chmpanzees, DEER?

C) Also there is all the empirical information and data that points to some people are actually born with a sexual predisposition. If it is Homosexual or even Bi Sexual there is a predisposition for said behavior. Heterosexual is not "normal" among many mammal species including ours. It is really more of a choice considering the number of Bisexuals out there. Tell me they are not the kind of people who "Must Have" that release at any cost by any gender? "Any port in a storm?"

D) A flat out heterosexual would never every suck a little cock for drugs or any other reason. Look at the real scenes of what goes on behind the curtain of Hollywood. The casting couch is for the boys as well as the girls. You would be surprised at the list of black actors known to or suspected of sucking a little you know what now and then alone. Then let us go to other white actors who are known homosexuals let alone closet bisexuals. Now let us look at our government and religious leaders who say they are not gay but get busted for sodomy and other "unnatural acts?"

E) Instinctual actions defy explanation sometimes. Humans have instincts and they are exactly the same as any animal! Run the comparison for yourself. Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!" it don't matter where the hole is as long as it is warm, wet, and large enough to handle the load!

Not trying to be sick. Just being realistic.

You cannot make "God's" judgement calls nor can your priests or bible because if God really is all that don't you think God would have finally said "YOU MUTHA FUQQAS! DON'T BE GAY!!" to us pitiful humans all ready? Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


A) God doesn't "program" us. We aren't "programmed", we have free will.

B) Animals do have choice, what in the world are you talking about? They choose to eat, they choose to sleep, they choose to hang around, they choose to run away. And this has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Animals are put here and have been made horny so to speak lol. They were placed here for us, if they weren't programmed to be horny so to speak, then they wouldn't repopulate. Mankind has the sense that if we don't produce offspring, our species would then in fact die off. Animals don't have that, they just automatically are programmed so to speak to reproduce. That is why most animals don't stick to one partner. Some species do, I realize that. But for the most, they don't. This is so they will populate faster.

C) Yes, as I've mentioned in this thread, people are born "attracted" to the same gender. The same gender may be the only one's that turn them on. But nevertheless, that is not "homosexual". Homosexual is when two people of the same gender actually have sex. The scriptures we have on this stuff come from scriptures such as "A man shall not lay with a man as he would a woman". Doesn't say anything about a man shall not be attracted to a man as he would a woman, ect. Cause again, people don't choose what/who they are attracted to. It is the action that proceeds that attraction that we will be judged on.

D) People sucking other **** for money isn't homosexuality in the essence of being attracted to the same gender. That plays into greed. They suck the other person's **** for money in one way or other. This lays into the "man shall not lay with man as he would woman", and all the scriptures that speak of greed. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right, natural, or anything. Makes it how it is, for greed, money, and or power of some form.

E)

Our reproductive urge is "Plant Penis In Any Willing Hole And Move On To The Next Hole!"


Says you, not all of us are like that. I am proud to say, at 23, I've only been with 2 women. I'm proud and disgusted with that number. Proud that it is only 2, but disgusted that it's not 1 or even 0. Why live like an animal? And how can it feel "sentimental" between the two, when in the back of your mind you know this person has been with 10 other people?


Gay people are not bad and therefore if they lead good honest lives who is God to judge them? What the hell is the point of Freedom of Choice if there is no choice?


No gay people aren't "bad". We aren't judged on being good or bad. We are judged on being obedient or disobedient. Who is God to judge them you ask? God is God lol, he is king of kings, lord of lords. He is ruler of Earth and Heaven.

And what is the point of freedom of choice if the is none you ask? There is choice, why you say there isn't? There is choice to obey or disobey. The outcomes of either choice don't determine if there is a choice or not, just the simple fact of "choosing". So with us having the ability to choose, we have freedom of choice and or free will.



Boy you have a thing for over simplifying things, don't you? You see things through the eyes of Theocracy. I see things through the eyes of the Empirical. I need evidence and account. I need to be able to put facts together with all the information people toss at us. Animals do not have a choice when instinct kicks in. Try getting between a horney dog and a female in heat some time. Or better yet try to stop a stampede from a fire. You are kidding yourself. If you were stuck on an island with nothing but animals for companionship I am certain you would try to "adapt" to your situation as your needs begin to compound themselves. Suddenly things you would view as a sin would change. Social creatures need others of their kind or they do not feel comfortable. Likewise Herd Animals are programed to hang with one another because of safety in numbers. These things are proven. Humans kept alone begin to suffer adversely in three months. Usually by three years the person kept in isolation goes nuts! There are a rare few cases some people tolerate being alone completely but they are such the minority.

Animals can think. What the heck do you think a female dog is thinking when she is putting her backside to you and backing it into you or humping on you every chance she gets? She is clearly expressing a desire to engage in sexual behavior with the object of her "affections." That is clearly consent! Having been a dog trainer when I was in HS and an animal handler over the years ranging from fruit flys to horses, I was a huge biology nut and excelled in that subject in school, you start to get the idea what is or isn't intelligent behavior in animals. BUT A FEMALE DOG ONLY CONSENTS WHEN IN HEAT! For the most part almost all except for a hand full of species have a fixed breeding cycle. A desperate female dog in heat is only answering her biological need to make babies. She does not chose to have sex for the purpose of pleasure. Her snatch is hot and itchy and she wants someone to scratch that itch, and with the proximity dogs have to humans the lines of sexuality blur evidently. It is a given male dogs for the most part will hump anything in sight. Humans really are not the only ones who make strange unconforming choices in life but we think too much of ourselves.

First of all your view is dripping with false christian morality. Unless you are in a more deeper context among homosexuals as a person you will never understand a lot of them knew what they were before high school. They preferred the company of males when being male. I personally can love another man as a brother but not as a lover. Homosexuals do get that concept. But Heterosexuals seem to have a hard time accepting that people have different life choices.

Yes choice has a lot to play into this argument but not when it overlooks the fact that homosexuality occurs in all examples of mammals. You cannot put yourself in the shoes of a buck deer who is not quite big enough to take on the big buck for the females and wanting to hump them so badly that even the male in action is working its head to death. I would post it but there is a picture called "Reindeer Games" of a doe with a buck on her and another buck on his backside. The big male is so wound up with the female he won't even respond to the other deer trying to poke HIM! That picture is against the rules of the site. If another man was trying to get me from behind I would go utterly batshyte crazy and tear his face off with my teeth! Then I would get back to what I was doing basking in the blood of the fallen!

Seriously, do you handle animals? Have you ever witnessed shoals of squid in the water so wrapped up with breeding they ignore the yellowtail swimming through them picking them off?

Don't confuse Instinct with conscious behavior. I would bet even you would run like hell if given the right stimulus to fear when standing your ground would be the safest play.

And again how can you even concern yourself with who God will judge and suddenly back away from your previous statement? Let us say God appeared and passed judgement and ignored most of the Homosexuals for the fact they did nothing to harm another? I bet you would feel a little scalded? Again don't assume you know what God thinks or expects. You pretend not to and do so in this last post but again in a previous post you did mention God's judgement.

How stunned would you be to see Adolph Hitler in heaven? How do you know he isn't there? How do you know a man that evil didn't act upon God's plan?

spock

I'm 47 and been through about 24 relationships so far. All of them ended badly but I did go into almost all of them with the right idea. The thing is people sometimes have to find out the hard way they are not compatible. If anything I have never lied or told anyone I loved them unless I meant it. I will admit to a couple of one shot deals in my past but life is different for each of us. I am still looking for my dream and hoping she is a reality. But if there is one thing my life has taught me is that God clearly plays favorites. At least the God of man does.

And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...



And as for Freedom of Choice, At least the Christian god is a Hypocrite because how any times has he robbed people of their freedom to choose? The old Testimate is RIFE with love, except for the Canaanites, women, prostitutes, Job, Isaiah... Need I go on? Wow,, and all that warped sex, drugs, and violence... What a loving God...


God is no hypocrite, nor has he robbed anyone of their free will. Just because we have the ability to choose does not mean we can or should do it. That is all free will is, is choice to do something or not do something. The outcome or reaction to the action has no connection to free will. As in, if one is punished for doing something, that does not take away or make them having free will moot. They still had the ability to choose to do that, again that is all free will is. Would be quite pointless to have a "judgement" if there was nothing to be judged on. How can one be judged on something they did, when they were programmed to do it? They couldn't be and are not.

Again, even IF someone is attracted to the same gender, that is no a sin. The actions that proceed that could be eg., two people of the same gender having sex.


And further then that, even if there are rules/laws to abide by. That doesn't take away your free will. For again, you have the choice to obey or not obey.
yep,soooome Choice,Comply or Burn Forever!
Free will like Government allows you!
Do as I tell you,or your *** is Grass and I'll be the Lawnmover!

Or as they say in the Islands,Dog ate your Lunch and Cat drank your Milk!

CowboyGH's photo
Mon 10/22/12 02:38 AM

You again digress to scriptures after all the quoting here? Likewise you still do not understand the difference between instinctual vs. rational.

Rape is not exactly instinctual. It is more of a choice. It is also a reproductive strategy in nature. There are mammals that rape other animals besides humans. Which side of the gender fence is a choice and instinct. The sexual drive itself is instinct, tab A goes into slot B and babies come out. That is just the core of sexual congress. Horney deer are only thinking two things, kill all opposition and hump females. I can think of a number of animal just like this. Some humans are likewise just like this, 'your female are mine and my females are mine.'


Likewise herd behavior is similar to fish schooling. There is no way an Anchovie stands a chance hanging out with Yellow Tangs. But you get a thousand Anchovies and you have a silver blob that confuses predators so they cannot single out fish. Likewise with Zebras on the plains. Deer in the woods. And even many bird species lie Starlings. You ever heard of a Passenger Pigeon? Its a recently extinct species. You know what did them in? Numerical Depletion. Turns out that in order to breed they had to have a mass orgy and if the flock got too small they just stopped breeding. The last few birds died off in captivity in failed breeding programs that realized too late what they had done to kill of an entire species. Most of them were EATEN! Be my guest and look it up. Here is a blatant case where the pigeons could have made a choice and evidently INSTINCTUAL PROGRAMMING prevented them from over coming their instinct and they died out when their numbers fell too much.

And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?

One man's sin is another man's virtue.

Geah, I can't remember who said that quote!



And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?


You ask why worry what God thinks? Because "God" is the authority over us. That is actually what the word "god" means and is why it has been denoted to referring to our Heavenly father. No we can't think for God, that is why we have been given written instructions.

What does the "reward" after death have to do with anything? It's not about the reward. It's about showing love to the one whom gave you life.

AndyBgood's photo
Mon 10/22/12 12:05 PM


You again digress to scriptures after all the quoting here? Likewise you still do not understand the difference between instinctual vs. rational.

Rape is not exactly instinctual. It is more of a choice. It is also a reproductive strategy in nature. There are mammals that rape other animals besides humans. Which side of the gender fence is a choice and instinct. The sexual drive itself is instinct, tab A goes into slot B and babies come out. That is just the core of sexual congress. Horney deer are only thinking two things, kill all opposition and hump females. I can think of a number of animal just like this. Some humans are likewise just like this, 'your female are mine and my females are mine.'


Likewise herd behavior is similar to fish schooling. There is no way an Anchovie stands a chance hanging out with Yellow Tangs. But you get a thousand Anchovies and you have a silver blob that confuses predators so they cannot single out fish. Likewise with Zebras on the plains. Deer in the woods. And even many bird species lie Starlings. You ever heard of a Passenger Pigeon? Its a recently extinct species. You know what did them in? Numerical Depletion. Turns out that in order to breed they had to have a mass orgy and if the flock got too small they just stopped breeding. The last few birds died off in captivity in failed breeding programs that realized too late what they had done to kill of an entire species. Most of them were EATEN! Be my guest and look it up. Here is a blatant case where the pigeons could have made a choice and evidently INSTINCTUAL PROGRAMMING prevented them from over coming their instinct and they died out when their numbers fell too much.

And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?

One man's sin is another man's virtue.

Geah, I can't remember who said that quote!



And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?


You ask why worry what God thinks? Because "God" is the authority over us. That is actually what the word "god" means and is why it has been denoted to referring to our Heavenly father. No we can't think for God, that is why we have been given written instructions.

What does the "reward" after death have to do with anything? It's not about the reward. It's about showing love to the one whom gave you life.



PUHLEASE, God has no place in my house when God disrupts the order and harmony of my house like anyone else! I can't love what I don't respect. I do not respect the "Christian" God. I respect the God that really is of all things and all things are of God. But I as a child of that God can choose to grow to be like my parent (metaphor) or choose to live like the rest of the ignorant sheep fearing God and everything else around me.

If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us. You see God as a Shepherd. I see God as an absentee who casts us into this maelstrom we call life and let us prove ourselves to him, her, it, or whatever God is.

If God is the limit of your world you really do keep yourself well contained from the mysteries and wonders of the world and places further away than we can see.

Remember that the concept of God you worship is man made. I just see God as a culmination of everything we see and don't see. Just the scope of God is like a Fractal. There is a beginning but it just keeps getting bigger until the beginning is lost as a infinitesimal speck in a vast sea of endlessness. If you seen God the way I do you would burn your bible!

CowboyGH's photo
Mon 10/22/12 01:27 PM



You again digress to scriptures after all the quoting here? Likewise you still do not understand the difference between instinctual vs. rational.

Rape is not exactly instinctual. It is more of a choice. It is also a reproductive strategy in nature. There are mammals that rape other animals besides humans. Which side of the gender fence is a choice and instinct. The sexual drive itself is instinct, tab A goes into slot B and babies come out. That is just the core of sexual congress. Horney deer are only thinking two things, kill all opposition and hump females. I can think of a number of animal just like this. Some humans are likewise just like this, 'your female are mine and my females are mine.'


Likewise herd behavior is similar to fish schooling. There is no way an Anchovie stands a chance hanging out with Yellow Tangs. But you get a thousand Anchovies and you have a silver blob that confuses predators so they cannot single out fish. Likewise with Zebras on the plains. Deer in the woods. And even many bird species lie Starlings. You ever heard of a Passenger Pigeon? Its a recently extinct species. You know what did them in? Numerical Depletion. Turns out that in order to breed they had to have a mass orgy and if the flock got too small they just stopped breeding. The last few birds died off in captivity in failed breeding programs that realized too late what they had done to kill of an entire species. Most of them were EATEN! Be my guest and look it up. Here is a blatant case where the pigeons could have made a choice and evidently INSTINCTUAL PROGRAMMING prevented them from over coming their instinct and they died out when their numbers fell too much.

And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?

One man's sin is another man's virtue.

Geah, I can't remember who said that quote!



And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?


You ask why worry what God thinks? Because "God" is the authority over us. That is actually what the word "god" means and is why it has been denoted to referring to our Heavenly father. No we can't think for God, that is why we have been given written instructions.

What does the "reward" after death have to do with anything? It's not about the reward. It's about showing love to the one whom gave you life.



PUHLEASE, God has no place in my house when God disrupts the order and harmony of my house like anyone else! I can't love what I don't respect. I do not respect the "Christian" God. I respect the God that really is of all things and all things are of God. But I as a child of that God can choose to grow to be like my parent (metaphor) or choose to live like the rest of the ignorant sheep fearing God and everything else around me.

If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us. You see God as a Shepherd. I see God as an absentee who casts us into this maelstrom we call life and let us prove ourselves to him, her, it, or whatever God is.

If God is the limit of your world you really do keep yourself well contained from the mysteries and wonders of the world and places further away than we can see.

Remember that the concept of God you worship is man made. I just see God as a culmination of everything we see and don't see. Just the scope of God is like a Fractal. There is a beginning but it just keeps getting bigger until the beginning is lost as a infinitesimal speck in a vast sea of endlessness. If you seen God the way I do you would burn your bible!



If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us


Who "fears" God? Why fear God if you love God? What is there to fear if you do?

We obey out of love, not out of fear of any sort. There is nothing to fear. At the very most one could fear, is fearing death.

It's either death or eternal life through Jesus Christ. Again what is there to fear? You're the one that brought up any form of fear? No I or anyone else that I have read at least in this particular thread.

CowboyGH's photo
Mon 10/22/12 01:31 PM




You again digress to scriptures after all the quoting here? Likewise you still do not understand the difference between instinctual vs. rational.

Rape is not exactly instinctual. It is more of a choice. It is also a reproductive strategy in nature. There are mammals that rape other animals besides humans. Which side of the gender fence is a choice and instinct. The sexual drive itself is instinct, tab A goes into slot B and babies come out. That is just the core of sexual congress. Horney deer are only thinking two things, kill all opposition and hump females. I can think of a number of animal just like this. Some humans are likewise just like this, 'your female are mine and my females are mine.'


Likewise herd behavior is similar to fish schooling. There is no way an Anchovie stands a chance hanging out with Yellow Tangs. But you get a thousand Anchovies and you have a silver blob that confuses predators so they cannot single out fish. Likewise with Zebras on the plains. Deer in the woods. And even many bird species lie Starlings. You ever heard of a Passenger Pigeon? Its a recently extinct species. You know what did them in? Numerical Depletion. Turns out that in order to breed they had to have a mass orgy and if the flock got too small they just stopped breeding. The last few birds died off in captivity in failed breeding programs that realized too late what they had done to kill of an entire species. Most of them were EATEN! Be my guest and look it up. Here is a blatant case where the pigeons could have made a choice and evidently INSTINCTUAL PROGRAMMING prevented them from over coming their instinct and they died out when their numbers fell too much.

And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?

One man's sin is another man's virtue.

Geah, I can't remember who said that quote!



And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?


You ask why worry what God thinks? Because "God" is the authority over us. That is actually what the word "god" means and is why it has been denoted to referring to our Heavenly father. No we can't think for God, that is why we have been given written instructions.

What does the "reward" after death have to do with anything? It's not about the reward. It's about showing love to the one whom gave you life.



PUHLEASE, God has no place in my house when God disrupts the order and harmony of my house like anyone else! I can't love what I don't respect. I do not respect the "Christian" God. I respect the God that really is of all things and all things are of God. But I as a child of that God can choose to grow to be like my parent (metaphor) or choose to live like the rest of the ignorant sheep fearing God and everything else around me.

If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us. You see God as a Shepherd. I see God as an absentee who casts us into this maelstrom we call life and let us prove ourselves to him, her, it, or whatever God is.

If God is the limit of your world you really do keep yourself well contained from the mysteries and wonders of the world and places further away than we can see.

Remember that the concept of God you worship is man made. I just see God as a culmination of everything we see and don't see. Just the scope of God is like a Fractal. There is a beginning but it just keeps getting bigger until the beginning is lost as a infinitesimal speck in a vast sea of endlessness. If you seen God the way I do you would burn your bible!



If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us


Who "fears" God? Why fear God if you love God? What is there to fear if you do?

We obey out of love, not out of fear of any sort. There is nothing to fear. At the very most one could fear, is fearing death.

It's either death or eternal life through Jesus Christ. Again what is there to fear? You're the one that brought up any form of fear? No I or anyone else that I have read at least in this particular thread.


The only kind of fear there is, or that I have is, disappointing God. Fear of disappointing God cause I love him and don't wish to upset him. Outside of that, there is no fear. No fear of death, no fear of anything. With God all things are possible.

willing2's photo
Mon 10/22/12 01:38 PM
Islamists hate fudge packers and kill them.

They let Trannys be.

Why?

AndyBgood's photo
Mon 10/22/12 03:27 PM





You again digress to scriptures after all the quoting here? Likewise you still do not understand the difference between instinctual vs. rational.

Rape is not exactly instinctual. It is more of a choice. It is also a reproductive strategy in nature. There are mammals that rape other animals besides humans. Which side of the gender fence is a choice and instinct. The sexual drive itself is instinct, tab A goes into slot B and babies come out. That is just the core of sexual congress. Horney deer are only thinking two things, kill all opposition and hump females. I can think of a number of animal just like this. Some humans are likewise just like this, 'your female are mine and my females are mine.'


Likewise herd behavior is similar to fish schooling. There is no way an Anchovie stands a chance hanging out with Yellow Tangs. But you get a thousand Anchovies and you have a silver blob that confuses predators so they cannot single out fish. Likewise with Zebras on the plains. Deer in the woods. And even many bird species lie Starlings. You ever heard of a Passenger Pigeon? Its a recently extinct species. You know what did them in? Numerical Depletion. Turns out that in order to breed they had to have a mass orgy and if the flock got too small they just stopped breeding. The last few birds died off in captivity in failed breeding programs that realized too late what they had done to kill of an entire species. Most of them were EATEN! Be my guest and look it up. Here is a blatant case where the pigeons could have made a choice and evidently INSTINCTUAL PROGRAMMING prevented them from over coming their instinct and they died out when their numbers fell too much.

And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?

One man's sin is another man's virtue.

Geah, I can't remember who said that quote!



And again why even worry what god thinks? We can't think for God. And a reward after we die? Really? Empirical Proof time... There is none for a reward or an afterlife at all. All I know is when dead we leave a skeleton behind after we decompose into nothing. So for now why not focus on what is before us rather than what we can't see or are not ready for?


You ask why worry what God thinks? Because "God" is the authority over us. That is actually what the word "god" means and is why it has been denoted to referring to our Heavenly father. No we can't think for God, that is why we have been given written instructions.

What does the "reward" after death have to do with anything? It's not about the reward. It's about showing love to the one whom gave you life.



PUHLEASE, God has no place in my house when God disrupts the order and harmony of my house like anyone else! I can't love what I don't respect. I do not respect the "Christian" God. I respect the God that really is of all things and all things are of God. But I as a child of that God can choose to grow to be like my parent (metaphor) or choose to live like the rest of the ignorant sheep fearing God and everything else around me.

If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us. You see God as a Shepherd. I see God as an absentee who casts us into this maelstrom we call life and let us prove ourselves to him, her, it, or whatever God is.

If God is the limit of your world you really do keep yourself well contained from the mysteries and wonders of the world and places further away than we can see.

Remember that the concept of God you worship is man made. I just see God as a culmination of everything we see and don't see. Just the scope of God is like a Fractal. There is a beginning but it just keeps getting bigger until the beginning is lost as a infinitesimal speck in a vast sea of endlessness. If you seen God the way I do you would burn your bible!



If God really were a God of love you should have NOTHING TO FEAR FROM GOD and if anything God should entertain us on a more level play field even for his superiority if God not only Loved us but Respected us


Who "fears" God? Why fear God if you love God? What is there to fear if you do?

We obey out of love, not out of fear of any sort. There is nothing to fear. At the very most one could fear, is fearing death.

It's either death or eternal life through Jesus Christ. Again what is there to fear? You're the one that brought up any form of fear? No I or anyone else that I have read at least in this particular thread.


The only kind of fear there is, or that I have is, disappointing God. Fear of disappointing God cause I love him and don't wish to upset him. Outside of that, there is no fear. No fear of death, no fear of anything. With God all things are possible.



REALLY? If God loved you and you had a falling down in your life if God cannot overlook small mistakes then God is pretty honked up!

Fear of any kind is still fear!

Now with God all things are possible? Really? Jump in a cage full of hungry lions and read a few poems by Chaucer and see if God will help prevent you from being eaten? If all things were possible then my dream woman would be by my side but I cannot see her being human or anything of this earth because every time I think I have found an exceptional person I wind up finding nothing but disappointment. Then again we are only human, and we are prone to screwing up.

What is to say a serial killer murdering people is not acting out of God's plan? In the Bible GOD COMPELLED JUDAS TO TURN JESUS IN. And out of guilt for sending his best friend to die Judas did himself in. And now to this day the Catholic Church has judged the man when he should be a saint for doing God's will! How many people in the bible did God do or put up to doing terrible things?, Isiah and his son, Job, Moses (being forced to wander the desert because of the sins of others?), And how about Lot and his wife? Or better yet what the Bible said Lot's daughters did to him.

Face it, YOUR BIBLICAL GOD IS MESSED UP!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0886D8914D5FA08F

Try these out to illustrate what I am talking about. I affectionately refer you to a happy little group of stories called UNBELIEVABLY MESSED UP BIBLE STORIES.

drinker Cheers!drinker

no photo
Mon 10/22/12 05:34 PM

REALLY? If God loved you and you had a falling down in your life if God cannot overlook small mistakes then God is pretty honked up!

Fear of any kind is still fear!

Now with God all things are possible? Really? Jump in a cage full of hungry lions and read a few poems by Chaucer and see if God will help prevent you from being eaten? If all things were possible then my dream woman would be by my side but I cannot see her being human or anything of this earth because every time I think I have found an exceptional person I wind up finding nothing but disappointment. Then again we are only human, and we are prone to screwing up.

What is to say a serial killer murdering people is not acting out of God's plan? In the Bible GOD COMPELLED JUDAS TO TURN JESUS IN. And out of guilt for sending his best friend to die Judas did himself in. And now to this day the Catholic Church has judged the man when he should be a saint for doing God's will! How many people in the bible did God do or put up to doing terrible things?, Isiah and his son, Job, Moses (being forced to wander the desert because of the sins of others?), And how about Lot and his wife? Or better yet what the Bible said Lot's daughters did to him.

Face it, YOUR BIBLICAL GOD IS MESSED UP!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0886D8914D5FA08F

Try these out to illustrate what I am talking about. I affectionately refer you to a happy little group of stories called UNBELIEVABLY MESSED UP BIBLE STORIES.

drinker Cheers!drinker


The Bible is a book, written by men and NOT God.

It's a story of effed up people doing effed up things and only saying "thus saith the Lord" when the Lord hath not spoken...


AndyBgood's photo
Mon 10/22/12 09:21 PM


REALLY? If God loved you and you had a falling down in your life if God cannot overlook small mistakes then God is pretty honked up!

Fear of any kind is still fear!

Now with God all things are possible? Really? Jump in a cage full of hungry lions and read a few poems by Chaucer and see if God will help prevent you from being eaten? If all things were possible then my dream woman would be by my side but I cannot see her being human or anything of this earth because every time I think I have found an exceptional person I wind up finding nothing but disappointment. Then again we are only human, and we are prone to screwing up.

What is to say a serial killer murdering people is not acting out of God's plan? In the Bible GOD COMPELLED JUDAS TO TURN JESUS IN. And out of guilt for sending his best friend to die Judas did himself in. And now to this day the Catholic Church has judged the man when he should be a saint for doing God's will! How many people in the bible did God do or put up to doing terrible things?, Isiah and his son, Job, Moses (being forced to wander the desert because of the sins of others?), And how about Lot and his wife? Or better yet what the Bible said Lot's daughters did to him.

Face it, YOUR BIBLICAL GOD IS MESSED UP!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0886D8914D5FA08F

Try these out to illustrate what I am talking about. I affectionately refer you to a happy little group of stories called UNBELIEVABLY MESSED UP BIBLE STORIES.

drinker Cheers!drinker


The Bible is a book, written by men and NOT God.

It's a story of effed up people doing effed up things and only saying "thus saith the Lord" when the Lord hath not spoken...




So is the Quran, book of Mormon, and a host of other tomes of heaven and reward in the afterlife.