What you are forgetting is that these "citizens", and I use that term loosely, are "caged" of their own doing. They CHOOSE to live in a way that goes against society and safety for the rest of humanity. If there weren't selfish, ignorant people in our society, there would be no reason to set laws. Unfortunately, these boneheads live among us and the rest of us who are productive members of society get to set the guidelines. You are more than welcome to join us.

Well you may believe I have no idea what I am talking about but if you cared to ask I have extensive experience in the field and have followed these issues for literally a life time giving hundreds of people who need a break just that. Sometimes for pay but just as often for no pay and even my personal expense and believe you me I have no golden spoon in my mixed blood mouth. Includeing children, women, minorites, people with disabilities, people of every creed and persuasion, all kinds of nonconformists that have not committed crimes, and actually many who have and decided to clean up their act and try to get what is their right in society.

You are right I do know nothing about you and if in my exasperation I have made you think my opinions are a personal attack on you then my most profound apologies.

However before you accuse me of somkeing anything, exploiting anyone, or doing anything with less than stellar results for the miniscule amout of resources that exist to clean up these criminals messes you probably want to rethink before you start hurling damnations against people who have experience and take the time to honestly say what they have personally seen "being in the trenches".

Which should not be construed as saying you might not have been also and just have a different perspective. Does it not burn my britches when I see the travesty of the court systems all to often? Yes it does. Don't kid yourself I know real personally how that can go down. But I will say to my dying breath there are very few Virgins sacrificed on the alter or the courts and if you would like to walk a few miles in my shoes you might agree. Not saying you have to and I will defend to the death if you don't but wait another 40 years or so before you tie yourself to the post of an opinion and then discount it as some privileged sheeple leading the downtrodden to slaughter because of some clap trap media.

And yes it probably is productive to stay on topic but sadly it is not as narrow a subject as just saying you are for or against a specific program that is not new and could with the right funding and support be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. The long term affect are not known but prison reform and family maintenace/reunification efforts have been made around incarcerated families for generations and this is sadly not a new concept.

Here is another thought for the person complaining about our country and laws....

Every society in the world has a system of expectations that they follow. In every one of them persons in the community who do not comply with the standards of the society in which they live are outcast. In some, they are even killed.

Our society is rediculous in that it gives these antisocial persons chance after chance after chance. Our ciminal justice system is perpetuating the problem by giving these morons so many rights and resources.

I would lean toward giving the babies to loving relatives/foster families to raise.

I raised mine without a mother, they bonded with me, not their mom. Children are remarkably resilient that way. I think as long as the "parent" is loving and nurturing the baby will be fine, sans mother or father.

If I'm wrong, don't tell anyone.

Unless you can demonstrate that the babies would be harmed by such a program, I am for it.

Ok only to this point. If only the Mother's that deserve to be Mother's had children, and wow what a slippery slope that would be, there would be very few Mother's. But even if we said only inmates do not deserve to be Mom's, another slippery slope, we have to deal with the fact that so far thankfully we have in our society a higher threshold for withdrawing the privilege of Motherhood. Probably because, not that it is in the best interest of the child but the state. Most crimes are not directed towards the children nor are the incarcerations for a lifetime or for that matter the length of a childhood so families are re-uniifed and simply pretending it will work to vacate a particular child to an adoptive family isn't going to happen.

As a society we can not afford to re-parent every inmates child. The process of adoption, if people were decent enough to even consider most of these babies adoptable which the crying shame is they don't, the system as we know would collasp completly. The number of inmate PARENTS is staggering.

And lets be honest these babies do have father's that if we made the effort could be identified in more cases than not. Simply providing better free birthcontrol would reduce a good percentage of these babies but we have already decided we don't allow that either.

It is easy to be all warm and fussy and believe loving adoptive homes exist for every child regardless of the reason but even that is just not so.

This is turning into quite a discussion:)

The feeling of some of the people interviewed was that, having that bonding and being able to have their child with them ,would lesson the chance of them being a repeat offender.

I struggle with that reasoning. First because ONE of many reasons I had for wanting to be a parent is I felt it would definitely motivate me to be a better person. There is something magical about something so helpless and dependent and later so challengeing bringing out the best in us.

I have often been thankful for to that what does not break us makes us strong but know how close being a parent can come to doing just that. And even with grown children I don't consider my job done; changed yes but not done. So I don't necessarily dispute that the stress can be too much to ask of the Mother's if they don't go in really wanting/capable to do it.

My one son and several of my foster kids are a good example of that. A Mom with big problems who was pressured into continueing her parenting role to the life long misery of both even though his adoption came before he was out of diapers. Both have tremendous guilt and my son had terrible issues of rage about being burdened this way that almost destroyed him and many others at one point. The economic cost for that little fiasco of idealism to taxpayers in the millions. Money that wuld have been much better spent giving her and him the "tough love" he needed sooner rather than later.

So I am not sure it is fair to dump that burden on an infant. Kids are resilient and surpriseingly adaptable but until I actually saw it being in the best interest of the child on a case by case basis; where the Child had their own advocate not infuenced by the Mother or the system to protect them; thriveing I would have HUGE reservations.

Some of the hardest decisions I have ever had to make in my life were the removal or displacement of a child from it's parents. It harms children in ways that you can not possibly cover in this thread, but sometimes it is necessary.

And the harm to mother's even terribly incapable Mother's is not to be ignored. I go to sleep every winter night thinking of one mother who froze to death sleeping against an outside hospital wall because that was the last place even in her wildly mentally ill mind she knew her child was and she refused to go to shelter. A significant number or the wandering self inflicted homeless if you really get down and talk to them have had a child taken away from them. I still take food to one mother who has had six children taken from her and she is fanatic about prostituteing herself up until she finds out she is pregant again in this terrible cycle of self punishment and punishment of society.

It is a very complicated issue.

I always believe that people deserve a second chance. As long as they totally swear on oath to not do it again. To not repeat that same mistake more times. I can't imagine how these female prisoners must feel, if they get their new born baby taken away from them. They probably feel no different than a new mother who has never been to prison. A bond is a bond. I would look at how safe it is to leave the baby with it's mother. For the sake of the baby more than anything. Not saying just let any female criminal get away with stuff. What I'm saying is a child and mother bonding from the start is quite important.

Imagine what it must feel like if someone took away your child. At the same time, if any wannabe prisoners are reading this, don't be getting any idea's that it's an okay thing to do, because it isn't.

You have NO IDEA what freedom means Pacific. None whatsoever. You said it all in your very first sentence:

"It is not about not conforming. You can be as non-conformist as you want to be as long as you do not commit a crime."

The two ideas contradict. You can't be free to make a choice, and yet at the same be subject to laws that subjugate the choices you can make. You just can't. And I'm not talking about things like don't kill another person, don't steal from them or destroy their property. Those are common sense, universal laws that every one of us should know enough to know that we shouldn't be doing.

I'm talking about laws that dictate to us what we can and cannot do with or to OURSELVES. Like telling us we can't take certain drugs, buy raw dairy, or like you say above refuse the draft, among many others on the books or being added to them. What if I WANT to smoke a joint, what if I WANT to drink raw milk, what if I DISAGREE with the war and want no part in it? Well according to you, what I believe means nothing because I don't have the right to make those choices for myself.

That is not freedom. When I cannot make a decision for myself personally, depending on what direction I wish to take my life, because of what someone else thinks is best for me, or because of what someone else thinks I have an obligation to be doing, then I am not free to be who I want to be at all.

True freedom, true choice, means being able to make of your life anything you want to make of it, be it good or bad, having the ability to choose those things for yourself independent of what anyone else thinks. If you do not have that, if someone can prevent you from doing something strictly based on their own dogma, their own set of rules, then you are not free. And we in this country are not.

We very much DO have to conform to someone else's ideas of what is or is not proper behavior, because if we DON'T conform to that, we get punished, we get fined, arrested, and thrown into jail. What we have been conditioned to believe freedom is, really amounts to....you are free to obey the law, or better stated...you are free to be a slave. It's not true freedom, it's not real. It's conditional, based on the laws at a given time. Real freedom isn't, it doesn't change depending on the time, and can't be granted sometimes but not granted at others.

Simply put, freedom isn't freedom if it can be taken away from you, if it can be arbitrary. You either have it completely, or you don't have it at all.

Nobody has to live in their current situation if they want to go to a bigger city, for a better life. If you're poor, you may get poorer by running away, but better to be safe and sane, than living under the thumb of a government who make no sense. You can always make a fresh start. To begin again. I'm not condoning crime. That just isn't me. I just wish sometimes that women could control their urges better, so that there would be less female prisoners putting themselves in these torrid situations. Are they possibly letting peer pressure take over? You should see all the luxuries prisoners get here in England. It's more than they deserve. Tbh. What happened to the bread and water only rules? Man. Prisons are more like hotels.

Firstly on babies behind bars,personaly i don't agree with this for several reasons.First off all a child has the right to be born into freedom.Think about this for a minute,if a child is born with medical issues or extremely premature,the child is taken from the parents to help with it's growing needs,of course the doctors and nurses do not wan't the parent to pass on any virouses to complicate it's survival.
so therefore the child is being removed for it's own benifit and safety,therefore why is it an issue to remove a child from it's parent in prison,surely this rule applies as it is for it's own benifit and safety,not forgetting it's right to freedom.
The parent, if the situation with their personal situation ,has still the visits to the child,may be to hold for a few hours.
But surely in the childs case if fostering or an other family member is posible then this should be the direction taken.Of course here in the uk,there is great lack of possible foster parents and of course the complex issue of same sex,different religion and ethnic differences.
So ultimately this comes down to finance and government spending.

Now it's babies inside.


What next?

If that were the case, then no pregnant woman should be behind bars, because a baby is born wherever its mother is.

True dodo David. but thats a different scenario,it is a very complex matter.Why was a pregnant woman put behind bars,was the crime that severe.Did she fall pregnant in prison?Nothing is straight forward and must be judged on each case i suppose. But the child must come first.
Open that can of worms Dodo David.

Non violent offenders who have 18 months or less to serve.....
most likely are in there because of drugs.

So many are.

Until we start treating addicts instead of jailing them for profit,
there will continue to be numerous broken homes.

These babies AND the mothers need each other.

We are so quick to remove children instead of helping.
Were such a vengeful, hateful and punishing society.

Drug users lack the ability to grasp reality.
Drug users who don't want to get clean will not accept treatment.
Babies of drug users should be taken away and given to responsible people to raise. Depending on the case, allow supervised visitation or if clean for a couple years, return the child.

Yes, your are such an expert on human behavior...(heavy sarcasm)

If I thought you actually gave a $hit about these women and their babies I would entertain discussion about it.

I choose NOT to be associated with you and your hatred.

Where's the hate?
I am all for the safety and well being of the child.

The Mom asks for treatment and stays clean for a couple years, great! Give her back the kid.
A dope user has no business raising kids.
Their dope will always come first.