hmmmmm. what objects have THEY found that far out? i suppose i could be less than up to date on the topic but i'm not aware that anybody has found anything further away from us than a galaxy that is 13 billion light years away and thought to have been in existance for a little less than 400,000 years. hense, a 13.75 billion year timeline.

but light does not always travel in a straight line.

Gravity cannot act on empty space.

Gravity can only act on matter and energy.

Gravity can not act on space devoid of matter and energy.

That is my claim.

The reason being is this: There is no such thing as space that is devoid of matter and energy.

That is my claim.

If you think that empty space is a "thing" that gravity can affect then describe the attributes of empty space.

Gravity cannot act on time.

That is my claim.

Gravity acts on matter and energy and matter on energy affects space and time.

That is my claim.

To say that a black hole could suck in only time and space is incorrect.

There are no black holes in existence that only suck in time and space.

That is my claim.

Black holes suck in energy and matter.

Time and space do not exist in the absence of energy and matter.

You cannot prove otherwise.

That is my claim.

Understood. There is little more you can do for me.

Therefore I reject your (and metalwing's) claim that a black hole can suck in empty space and time.

You cannot explain it or back it up by describing the properties of empty space (void of matter and energy) and/or how gravity can affect it.

You have also failed to explain the material properties of time that allow gravity to have any affect on it.

These are extremely basic and simple questions.

If you can't answer the simple basic questions that I asked, then it is certainly true that you can do no more for me.

JB, if you can't understand the basics, the act of making up new theories based on your misunderstandings is pretty silly, not to mention arrogant.

Here is a simple explanation of one concept that you seem to be completely unable to grasp.

http://www.universetoday.com/13808/how-can-galaxies-recede-faster-than-the-speed-of-light/

yep.......before the big bang there was foreplay

This is not a "new theory" at all. This is the way it is.

Again your own arrogance causes you to speak to me as if I am ignorant or stupid. I am not.

And I do not "misunderstand" basic physics or science.

The link you sent me to explains it very well and simply and it is very easy to understand.

It also does not say that galaxies are moving faster than the speed of light. It says that they APPEAR to be moving away from us faster than light.

It does not say that they are actually moving faster than the speed of light. It says that they only appear to be.

Quote Below:



The "appearance" of something is not an indication that they are actually moving faster than the speed of light. The article also said this:

"You could use up all the energy in the Universe and still not be traveling at light speed."

The article also states that dark energy (not empty space) is providing an additional accelerating force on the expansion of the universe.

Dark energy.

As quoted below:



And you continue to insult my intelligence with condescending comments like this:


I am perfectly able to grasp that concept - as written in that article.

What I can't grasp is your ridiculous claim that a black hole can suck up empty space/time in the absence of energy and matter.

Energy and matter are always involved with warped space and time. There is no black hole in the universe that can or does suck in empty space or time because space and time do not exist without the presence of energy and matter.

Here is how it works:

The universe is first and foremost energy.
From energy, comes matter.
From matter comes space/time.

Matter and energy effects (creates) spacetime.

This is NOT a new theory.

This is fact. This is simple logic and common sense.

You speak as if there is a material entity called "space" and "time" that gravity can have some affect on. This is not true.

Gravity can only affect energy and matter. Energy and matter effect (create) spacetime; and affect (warp and change) spacetime.

That is my claim.

That is fact.

Because energy and matter are somewhat the same thing in different forms, the correct claim is that Energy/matter creates space/time.

What scientists are calling "dark matter" and "dark energy" is probably what we have thought of as 'empty space.'

If there was no dark matter and no dark energy, the universe would collapse upon itself. Instead of expanding like a balloon, it would shrink like a balloon that has lost its air.

Now that is my 'new' theory.

You know so much!

These are simple facts. A real scientists knows what I said is true.

then how do they know how far something is if the light is being bent, or not traveling in a straight line?

She makes Einstein look the fool! He was so wrong!

That is stupid.

if you read the whole post i typed, it explained why i said that...
they invent new, far fetched theories to explain something that may/ probably is not true to begin with... since i really do not believe in the big bang theory, they coming up with new theories to support it makes no sense to me... i feel in the next few years, they will realize their mistake and correct it...i'm looking for a scientist that is trying to disprove this theory, not prove it...by most of the scientists trying to prove the big bang theory, i feel they are digging themselves in a hole they cannot get out of.

i sgree jennie, gravity cannot effect time, because time is just a unit of measurement, like an inch... how can gravity affect something that is imaginary?

Show me where Einstein said that gravity can affect empty space or time without involving matter or energy?

You are the ones who are so wrong.

What I am telling you is fact.

I think that's what all this is really about. MetalWing is frustrated by what he sees as your hardheadedness, and you are insulted by what you see as his being condescending.

This isn't a good recipe for a productive, educational conversation about science.

There is no incident of any black hole sucking in empty space or time without involving matter and energy.

Space/time does not and cannot exist without energy/matter.

This is fact.

You cannot prove otherwise. Einstein agrees.

Wow you are really trying to milk that strawman for all its worth!



It doesn't matter whether space and time can be meaningfully defined absent of energy and matter, what matters is whether or not gravity can act directly on space and time.