No, it's not quite the same.

The question:
"If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound..." .. is a question about an event or about the way things are. It is a question about actual reality.

Our question is about a statement and whether or not it is "true."
It is not about whether or not the cup or the table actually exist in reality.

So the subject is the STATEMENT and the question is about what it takes for it to be true, (or "considered" true.)

Without an observer there can be no consideration. So for a statement to be considered true, you need an observer to do the considering.

If you just want to know what it takes for it to be true, (without an observer) then I say that the question is a moot point.

Even if a universe existed that contained only a table and a cup sitting on it, it is a moot point. There are no observers, therefore the cup and the table cannot be perceived, therefore their existence is not acknowledged or known and there can be no statement about it.

The statement would not exist.

The question is not about whether or not a statement is considered "true". It is about what makes it true.

It must be considered to be true.

Without an observer, there would be no statement.

Not so.

You have a claim, and the one who makes the claim.

And you have an observer who agrees that the claim is true.

So it takes a cup on a table, the claimant, and the observer.

okay. so someone observes the cup on the table. is he telling the truth if he tells someone who did not observe the cup on the table? how can you know? it's true to the observer but it would require faith in what he's telling is truthful for another to BELIEVE that it's true, no? in this case, the sense of sight was required. in the case i presented a sense of hearing was required. so lets go back to the forrest and say that there was somebody there to experience the noise made by the falling tree. that he claims he head a falling tree to someone who wasn't there mean that the falling tree actually made a sound? how could you know he was even truthful when he said he was there to hear it without faith that what he says is true?

truth exists only within each of us. MY truths are only those things i experience myself. to think otherwise would be to BELIEVE which i never do. question everything.

I am going to say this one more time...

There is no debate here regarding whether or not an observer is necessary for consideration. We know that already. It is a given. The question is what makes the statement true. An observer is not the answer, nor does repeatedly putting forth the notion that an observer is necessary do anything other than state what has been already granted.

Considering and/or calling a statement "true" does not make it so. The question is what does.

I am going to say this one more time...




I'm not debating.

I'm just telling you that if there is no observer, whether something (some statement) is true or not is A MOOT POINT.

It is meaningless.

Here is the answer:

So it takes a cup on a table, the claimant, and the observer.

The cup on the table with no claimant, and no observer is a moot point.

Nice.

















Please leave this thread.

not a chance

What is wrong with that answer?

We need not check to see if the cup is on the table in order for the claim to be true.

A universe with only a table with a cup sitting on it cannot exist.

Irrelevant to the topic.

A statement about a cup on a table can be true without our checking. Therefore, although a creature capable of language is necessary for making a statement, it is insufficient for making the statement true.

The question is what makes the statement true, not what constitutes the necessary preconditions for making a statement.

No it is NOT irrelevant to the topic.

If something is true without our checking or knowing about it, then that "truth" is a moot point. It is meaningless and unknown.

When discussing what it takes for a statement TO BE true, our knowing that it does not require our checking to see is anything but a moot point.

A true statement is not "a truth". Truth is what makes the statement true.

"The cup is on the table" is a true statement if, and only if the cup is on the table.

Nothing else suffices.

Bravo genius.