I wish to make a statement in order to maybe clarify a conceptual difficulty surrounding the Nice Guy myth/ syndrome.

There are two kinds of nice guys. Those whom others call nice guys, and those who are self-professed and self-declared nice guys.

-----------

The above should require no further explanation. But confusing the one kind with the other will give rise to an inordinate amount of posts arising from conceptual confusion.

----------

In my opinion a nice guy, who is described as a "nice guy" by others, without prodding, is a nice guy.

A guy who whines that the nice guys never get laid, is a self-professed nice guy, sporting these traits:

- egotistic
- inwardly turning
- narcissistic
- poor grasp of his own social reality
- having great expectations from others, and an overinflated, too rosy, and gratuitous opinion on his own actions
- generally not a provider
- generally a taker, and seldom a giver
- most likely boring
- most likely overly sensitive
- most likely demanding
- most likely emotionally high maintenance
- most likely he will not see himself as the previous 10 points assert of him, given by most observers

The nice guy will admit and agree if told, that he is
- poor
- socially maladjusted
- not a winner
- kinda rejected by women
- melancholic and often depressed
- not often found smiling spontaneously
- not often found laughing heartily at a funny thing
- has had more than one physical lover
- in fact, his relationships are short-lived, and his partners have a high turnover
- he can't keep a job for too long, either
- he lives in a room in a rooming house
- he cleans up nicely for the first date, but not for subsequent dates - due sheerly to boredom with the chore of cleaning the self
- his adult life is spent more as unemployed than as in gainful employment
- he resents spending money on the first and subsequent dates.


His explanations for why each entry is in this second set will be completely incongruous (not identical, and not even similar) to the explanation what others provide or would provide if asked.

So your opinion of a nice guy is a door mat which most people on this site agree IS NOT a nice guy. Someone that will agree they are maladjusted? That they are not a winner? So they have to have no confidence in their selves? I think a nice guy can tell someone they are wrong if they say bad things about him like that.

Chazster, I appreciate your comment. Did you read the second line in the entire post? I think you are referring to the first kind of nice guy inthe last sentence in the second line of the original post, and you mix up that my opinion is also applying to those guys.

I gave two opinions on two types of nice guys. One each. Two types of nice guys in total, two opinions in total. Not just one opinion on one type of nice guy. I wish you would read both types and my corresponding opinion on both of the two types.

You seem to imply that your opinion and most posters' on this site is quite the opposite to mine. I beg to differ, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

What you allege here as my assertions, are not allegations that are true. They are true only if you only superficially read my post, which you did, I think, because it is apparent that you haven't realized that I am talking about two types of nice guys.

I wish you wouln't put words in my mouth, either. What you said I asserted here is just not true. Only a more studious reading of my original post can show you that.

I understand that you don't want to do that. I can't force you to, and I don't want to force you to read it again. I am just saying that your opinion that describes my opinion would be different if you read my original post carefully in the first place.

But this is not a reason to argue. I respect your opinion, even if it is different from mine, and even if it is based only on a superficial reading of my opinion.

Thanks for your input.

I think his point is that they are one and the same. That's because no one here on Mingle is going to speak on behalf of a true nice guy.

If a true nice guy is defined by how others perceive him, then no one will ever believe it when he describes himself as a nice guy. But without knowing people who know him, a person will never know how others perceive a possible nice guy. And so, meeting in person is not enough. You have to meet his people....friends, acquaintenances, coworkers, etc. of both sexes to get the real picture.

In short, on Mingle a nice guy is S.O.O.L.

*****

On second reading, the true nice guy is honest, with himself and others, no matter how bad or uncomfortable the truth is. He's probably a nice guy because he has had a few bumps or snags in his life which have humbled him. He won't offer much about himself unless asked.

This seems to be Wux's definition, but it still does not seem to fit what most women want.

I took my own medicine. I re-read your reply.

I don't think my post asserts that a nice guy of the second type is a door-mat. Not at all. I don't know how someone who read it can infer from my post that I said that.

I also did not say at all, nothing near even, that the second type of nice guy has no confidence in himself.

Looking at your last sentence, it seems you think you are a nice guy, since you told someone (me) that I was saying bad things about the nice guy (you).

I never even knew this you would take personally. I never had you as the model person for my post. I did not say these things as characteristics that apply to you. Nothing of the sort. I was talking in very general terms of a proverbial nice guy. You are not proverbial, are you. So please don't for one moment think that my first post was about you. I don't know you. I have no clue how you behave, what your expectations are, whatever. Please don't take my first post as directed at you. It was not directed at you.

Why do I say that I think you took it on personally? Because you said "like that". This phrase took the generalness out of your statement, it made it very real that you think you are a nice guy and you told me I was wrong.

So... I assert you could have taken the type I nice guy as the one to describe you. I had no power or doing in your understanding that you may be the second type that I referred to. I made my post general; not at all particular. I mentioned two types of nice guys. You missed there were two types, and now you accuse me of saying that you are a type II nice guy. You misunderstood the post, since you asserted that I said nice guys, among other things, are doormats, and they have no self confidence, neither of which is in my description of the nice guy, in the description of neither type I nor type II.

So. I hope you understand my post was not about you, I hope you understand that you misunderstood my points, and I hope you understand that this was not aimed at or against you at all.

10 Reasons Women Date Jerks Instead of Nice Guys

10) More fun to complain about them to their friends.

9) Guys who actually like you just aren't challenging or exciting.

8) When you do date nice guys, they turn into jerks anyway, so why not save time and go for the jerk in the first place?

7) You won't get as emotionally attached to a jerk, so you'll be more in control.

6) All the other women want them, so they must be worth having.

5) Affection means more when it comes from a guy who doesn't normally give it.

4) Guaranteed to cheat on you so someone else can endure his lack of lovemaking skills most of the time.

3) No need to feel guilty for abusing or deceiving them.

2) Jerks will actually tell you when they don't like what you're doing instead of getting mad about it six months later.

1) Looking for someone you can't trust, and won't care about too much, who will abuse you mentally and financially, but you don't know any lawyers.

*snickers*

Nice guy is subjective. I can introduce you to friends of mine who I consider to be nice guys, others may see them as jerks though.

This is what some of us have been saying all along.

He-he.

But don't kid yourself. Nice guys get more women, as per headcount, but for shorter runs. Jerks get fewer women, but they hang on to each other for longer.

Why? Because every guy is either a jerk or a nice guy. There is no other alternative. And most guys, the normal ones, are a mixture of both; and if a woman wants to have kids on her own, she'll need a guy who sticks around, and smacks the kids and calls them stupid when the woman is too tired to do so herself.

You're absolutely right, singmesweet.

Not sure if your a nice guy? Take the test... hehehe

1. How do you typically look when you arrive to pick up your date?

A. I wear my church clothes
B. I like to dress up. Sometimes I bring a small present or flowers
C. I dress casually unless I am very impressed with the woman
D. I'm late, dress as I want, and if I bring anything it's a sixpack of
beer
E. I take a knife


2."Women are special." Is this statement true?

A. Yes, but they scare me
B. Most always
C. Sometimes
D. One or two, but only temporarily until I have my way with them. And
I will have my way with them
E. Only when tied and gagged


3. Genreally, when a girl cancels out of a date...

A. NOT APPLICABLE. I don't get the date in the first place
B. I get a weak excuse if I get one at all
C. She says she is sorry and would like to make it another time
D. She cries and begs for forgiveness. The only excuse I'll accept is
death-Hers
E. She moves, changes her name, and gets plastic surgery


4. When I meet a girl, I...

A. talk about mother
B. want to get to know her, find out who she is, and what she does
C. want to get to know her, but only if she is worth it
D. I see a conquest in the making
E. usually scare them off


5. I think women are...

A. like dear old mother
B. should be put on a pedistal
C. fanstastic sometimes
D. good for only one thing
E. the scourge of the earth


6. A girl cancels a date, gives a feeble excuse, and in the process,
blows your weekend.

A. you cry
B. you assume she told the truth and wanted to go with you
C. you are disappointed but might try again
D. it never occurs. If it did, there are others waiting in the aisles
E. You set dynamite to her house/apartment


7. On Valentine's Day...

A. I get a card from Mom
B. I send cards, but recieve few
C. I get some cards and send a few
D. I get a lot of cards and read only the ones I want. I send no cards
unless it scores points I can collect on later
E. I don't get any cards and I blame all women for it


8. I get dates...

A. through Mother
B. through a great deal of effort, including groveling and expensive
offerings
C. easily some times and hard other times. My success runs hot and cold
D. without effort. Many times they ask me
E. if I pay for them to go. Sometimes that just isn't enough


9. When I am at a bar...

A. I don't go to bars
B. I rarely get anywhere with women
C. I occasionally get a phone number
D. I score frequently
E. I dirnk till I pass out. Of course, this is only if they let me in


10. A girl I date for a long time quits seeing me because...

A. I am boring
B. I don't know why, many times it is for someone else
C. we fight too much
D. I told her to get lost, or she caught me fooling around
E. I threatened her life


11. When I settle down...

A. I want someone to help me tie my shoes and dress me
B. I want to get married and live like Ozzie and Harriet with lots of
kids
C. I might want to get married. Kids are a maybe
D. I'll settle down when I am dead and buried
E. I can't settle down. The world is after me


12. Marriage...

A. is for grownups
B. is a pleasant way to spend a life
C. might be nice
D. is a mistake unless she is rich and beautiful and doesn't mind when I
fool around
E. is impossible


13. If I ever got married I would...

A. have to have Mother's approval
B. be forever faithful
C. be faithful, maybe
D. be faithful at least the first week, or until the first opportunity
to score, which ever comes first
E. lock her in a closet to keep her away from other men


14. I get laid...

A. What does "getting laid" mean?
B. at least once every two years, sometimes
C. a few times a year
D. I'm not sure how many times, but it's somewhere between 365 times a
year and whatever my hero Wilt Chamberlain says is his yearly average
E. never. But I get screwed a lot


15. Look at your charge card bills. Those related to women are...

A. mostly things I get for my mom
B. for dinners, flowers, presents, plays, etc.
C. for sports events, dinner, concerts, occasionally flowers
D. I never pay. If I do it is to buy beer or tickes to professional
wrestling or a tractor pull. Look on my date's credit card bill to see
the places I take her.
E. for semi-automatic weapons

Take your test results and grade it by giving each "A" answer 0 points, 1 point for each "B" answer, and so on up to 4 points for each answer "E".

Total your score and refer to the five groupings below:

0-8 MAMA'S BOY
Move back home, if you aren't there already. You are looking for a girl
just like the girl who married dear old dad. Women like that don't exist,
and if they do, they don't have any interest in you.

If a Mama's boy gets married, it is usually to a husband beater. They
are very rare and hopeless cases.

If you are a woman and like this type of man, they are an easy kill.
They are great if you want someone to control or abuse, or you want someone who
can not possibly fool around on you. It is prefereable that he has money or
stands to gain from an inheritance. The negitive side is that you will have
to fight with his mother (who probably lives with you) over him, listen
to his elephant jokes, and watch him read his subscription to "Mad" Magazine.

famous examples- Felix Unger in the Odd couple and Walter Mitty

9-22 MR. NICE GUY
You poor sap. You are everything a girl thinks she wants but not what
she is attracted to. Women chew you up and spit you out. You never get
laid.


If you are a woman and a guy you date rates as this type, you have it
made. The problem is there is no thrill of victory and little danger of loss
that can keep him interesting. If you have a conscience, you feel bad when
you inevitably dump him.

famous examples- ROSS, Harry Connick Jr. (his image anyway), Bobby Ewing
in Dallas, Tom Selleck, and Joel from Risky Business

23-37 MR. AVERAGE
Sometimes you are Mr. Nice Guy, and sometimes you aren't. It depends on
the woman in question. For men of this type, It means that you probably
want what you probably can't get.

For women, if he is strongly attracted to you, he will do anything for
you and behaves like Mr. Nice guy. If he is not attracted to you, he acts
like Mr. Abuse

famous examples- Burt Reynolds, Bruce Springstein, Chandler?, Joey?

38-52 MR. ABUSE
Mr. Abuse is the most sucessful with women. He is the one who gives the
least and gets the most. Rampant outbreaks of VD can usually be
controled from this source. Cure him, and you have cured the problem.

For women who seek such a man, he will ruin you, but the thrill of the chase,
the desire to win over and conquer him intrigues you and makes your life
worth living.

famous examples- Wilt Chamberlain, Mike Tyson, J.R. Ewing, John Derek,
James Dean, Marlon Brando, Rob Lowe, Mickey O'Rourke, Jim Morrison, Pablo
Piccasso, Teddy Kennedy, and PAULO

53-60 MR. PSYCHO

You should be in Jail.

If you are a woman and this man comes to your home, pull out your .44 magnum,
open the door, and let him make your day. Mr. Psycho is as rare as
Mama's boy. If you are attracted to such a man, seek a Doctors help
immediately.

famous examples- John Hinkley Jr., Woody Allen, Richard Speck, David
Koresh, Richard Ramierez, Ted Bundy, and Kevin Coe.

I think a nice guy would just be himself. He should treat others that way he wants to be treated. Its not rocket science.

((((((LadyLid))))))


loved it..

I am not taking the post personally. I am completely disagreeing with the entire post. Everything you put in the second example which you claim is a "nice guy" is a guy accepting and admitting to some negative phrase when people tell them that. I disagree entirely. No one needs to accept or agree to negative comments about themselves to be considered nice. To me that is merely letting people walk over you and thus a doormat.


Am I a nice guy 100% of the time? No. Would I consider myself a nice guy? Yea sometimes as by my definition I take other peoples feelings into consideration and more often then not do what I can to make sure others are comfortable. Just in general put others before myself in a lot of simple situations (such as giving an elderly person my seat on the subway). This is however my own definition and I really could care less how others classify me.

I wonder how much of this is self fulfilling prophecy (not you specifically). People make up their mind ahead of time how others will respond and it affects what they choose to say or do.

I consider myself a nice girl, if asked, I would have no issue saying so. I could easily explain that I have been told by others I am a nice person. It doesnt involve anything but truth , its not that complicated or egotistical(if ASKED).

I find it sad that even if one is ASKED if they are nice, there are all these outside issues running through their head about the 'niceness' of answering the question ....

Yes then you are stuck with a conundrum. Are you no longer nice if you admit to it because you are not being humble. Or are you no longer nice by denying it and now being dishonest.

Nice guy is an in-the-gray kind of notion. Based on two uncertain concepts to start with:

- nice

and

- guy

We might as well start debating what is a 'real man' or a guy next door, or even 'what is good'

In any case my point is that there are always two interpretations to the generic character of people

on the one hand the socialistic where the superficial opinion of others is the basis for evaluating,

and then there's the individualistic where you actually look at the person to make a decision

I think both have some validity, but I'm into the individualistic first.

But then there's the ever put aside reality, where we are both.