So okay, there is a reason for the poll. What is wrong with that?

What is the point of a poll if there is not a reason or agenda???

Crap what is your problem?

Slowhand stated that "most Christians" don't really believe that the Bible is accurate or true.

I disagree.

Hence, the poll.

So if you have a problem with that, then just don't participate.

Crap. I can't conduct a single little poll without a bunch of conflict.

Well actually I argued that most people don't believe the Bible
is "historically accurate" but I also don't believe most Christians
think it is "historically accurate" either - I think most people
Christians included would say it is mixed - that there is some truth
to it but that the Bible cannot be taken as literal history.

But I would include as Christian all those who believe in the
teachings of Jesus to be as inclusive as possible. And I mean
so we can include Abra!



Of course you cannot conduct a meaningful poll on mingle that would
really be unbiased and objective. But you can collect opinions from
various mingle2 members.

So far the tally is still:

---------------------------Yes-----No/Mix---No Answer

1. historically accurate----2-------2--------1

2. church teaches it--------1-------3--------1

3. bible stories true-------0-------4--------1

Just because you think the teaching of Jesus is good, does not make you a Christian. Abra is not a Christian.

But if you are trying to stack the deck in your favor then the poll is pointless.

Jean it's like this. I like you and have nothing personal against you. I think you are talented and funny on other threads. In the religious area though there is a different vibe. I wish it wasn't there but it is.

Many threads here are pointed at Christians from people who have a problem with Christians. Based on your thread topics it looks like your one of them. If people came here to discuss their opinion that would be one thing, but when it is one ambushing thread after another I for one have to start questioning motive.

Look at this thread. Do you see a lot of poll taking? No. What you do see are the same questions and answers you see on all these types of threads.

I just did a quick look at all the threads that are on the first page of this part of the forum and it basically for the most part comes down to 2 types of people. Those who are for Christianity and those that are opposed. Those who want to live the life and those who don't want them to live the life.

Here's my view (not so much a problem).

If you say "There is no agenda to this poll so it is very objective"

And then say "So okay, there is a reason for the poll. What is wrong with that?

What is the point of a poll if there is not a reason or agenda???"

It comes off looking like another ambush.

Love is about approving what is right more than trying to find the wrong.

Ok, by that definition I'm definitely not a Christian.



I don't believe in gods that require blood sacrifices to pay for "sins".

Definitely not.

Sorry Slowhand.

I know you were really getting excited there for a moment because you thought that a pantheistic view of Jesus would suffice as being "Christian" thus enabling my to take on that label.

However, by Jeanniebean's definition of "Christian" above for this poll, I definitely don't qualify.

I do not believe that Jesus was the "sacrificial lamb" of any blood-thirsty God who demands that "sins" must be "paid" for by physical brutality and pain.

That whole mentality right there represents the epitome of ignorance, IMHO.

Also, if a "belief" in Jesus also requires that I must believe in a God who punishes women with painful childbirth, and was the son of that God, then no, I absolutely see no reason to believe that Jesus would be related to such a demented sick moron.

Even according to the Gospel rumors, it's clear that Jesus himself did not agree with the sick demented immoral things that had been taught in the Torah. He renounced the worst of those by attempting to replace them with greater wisdom more along the lines of what the Buddhists teach.

Jesus renounced the judging of others. (that alone would also renounce the stoning to death of sinners, since a person would first need to be judged to be a sinner before they could be stoned to death). However the Gospel rumors go even further than this and actually have Jesus renouncing the stoning of sinners by all save for those who might be free of sin themselves. And a sin-free person isn't the type of person who would go around judging and stoning people to death anyway. So for all intents and purposes Jesus renounced the teachings of the Torah that claims that some God wants them to judge others and stone sinners to death.

Jesus also renounced the seeking of revenge which was obviously highly problematic in that society. Jesus renounced an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth when he taught to turn the other cheek.

Jesus renounced the seeking of revenge and instead taught forgiveness. The precise opposite of what the God of Abraham has directed that people should do.

So I see no reason whatsoever to believe that Jesus was the Son of the God of Abraham.

I also agree with the Jews. The prophecies that claim that there will be a messiah also claim that God will give the throne of David to that messiah. Jesus never became King. Thus he could not possibly have been the messiah eluded to in those extremely vague prophecies anyway.

So I agree with the Jews on that point. The point that I did agree with the Jews on is that their original Torah represents the thoughts, directives and ideals of our creator.

Even Jesus renounced that. When speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees he always referred to the Torah as "their laws", not "God's laws". And he made it perfectly clear that in his view the Scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites.

So he didn't support the Torah or the Scribes and Pharisees of his day at all.

He was the "Abracadabra" of the zeroth century.

He was like me. He renounced all the horrible things that Scribes and Pharisees (religious zealots and fundamentalists) stand for.

And they hated him for it and crucified him.

They would probably crucify me today too if it wasn't for the secular laws of the land prohibiting religious zealots from crucifying people for blaspheme against their religious hypocrisy.

I am the light of the world. I am the son of the living God. Just like Jesus was. I am a pantheist. I am that I am.

So in that pantheistic sense I'm a "True Christian" Slow.

So you can rejoice in that.

But for Jeanniebean's poll I must digress. I do not acknowledge or recognize the idea that Jesus died to pay for anyone's 'sins'.

He just tried to instill in them far better moral values than their current mythologies contained. And unfortunately he failed in his quest. That's a shame.

Today they just hold his dead body up on a bloody pole using him as an excuse to support religious bigotry, and continue to uphold many of the sick demented things from the Torah in his name.

What an irony.

So no. I'm nether a "Christian", nor do I support that kind of "Christianity" in Jesus' name. I totally renounce the hatred and bigotries that are being held up in Jesus' name.

I support love.

Just as I believe the real Jesus did.

Jesus and I are drinking buddies.

We drink of the Holy Spirit of LOVE.

Mg,

Well I would have liked the thread to be only about the poll and only about answering the questions asked.

But A moderator stepped in and told me that I could not exclude non-Christians from a thread, (which I was not doing) so I invited anyone to voice their opinions so as not to break any forum rules.

Still, I would prefer that people stick to the topic and answer the questions but I can't control what people post on threads.

If you don't want to participate in the poll you don't have to. If you have a problem with the thread you don't have to participate in that either.

I don't think that "most" Christians believe that the Bible is false or "not accurate." My personal experience with Christians has given me the impression that they believe the Bible is historically accurate and true. In order to provide evidence for my claim I created this poll.

It is very simple. If that is an "agenda" so be it.

But I would like it to be a fair poll and so anyone claiming to be a Christian can participate... or not.

I don't have a problem with Christians, they have a problem with me.

So in the interest of Christians who seem to have a problem with me and my poll, forget the poll.

I will concede the argument and agree with slowhand1, that MOST Christians don't really believe the Bible is historically accurate or true.

I actually hope he is right.

POLL ENDED.... NEVER MIND.

Why do you think this is happening today MG?

Seriously, think about it.

You say,

Well, it a fact that people use Christianity to find things "wrong" with the lives of other people.

They renounce same-gender love as being "wrong".

The renounce all spiritual quests for God that do not recognize Jesus as being the only begotten sacrificial lamb of God as being "wrong"

They only approve of what they consider to be "right", yet they constantly renounce everything that they consider to be "wrong".

And this even overflows into the rational sciences and mankind's quest for genuine TRUTH.

This religion had bucked again the discover of truth for centuries. They refused to hear of anyone suggesting that the Earth isn't the center of God's creation. Yet they were clearly wrong.

Today they renounce the overwhelming scientific evidence of evolution in favor of their creation myths.

They continue to demand that mankind "fell from grace" from God because of some ancient mythological tales that have absolutely no merit.

We have overwhelming scientific evidence that death, disease, thorns on plants, and animals that eat each other have always been this way since the dawn of time. Mankind had nothing to do with the "evils" of this world. The world is naturally the way that it is and has always been this way long before mankind ever came onto the scene.

~~~~

Religion is politics. Because it is used to push and support political agendas claiming to have the supremely divine knowledge, directives, and commandments of a God encapsulated in a single collection of stories called "The Bible".

You say,


That's your personal perspective MG.

Face it mg, Christianity is a highly proselytized religion. Why do you think such opposition to it has arisen in the first place.

If it were just a matter of Christians wanting to peacefully live their lives with their own personal beliefs, whilst allowing other people to live their lives with different beliefs then you'd never see what we see today. These kind of discussions would have never 'evolved'.

They evolved over many years of religious oppression.

You might even better understand it by recognizing that the Internet was like popping the cork off of extreme frustration and resentment of Christian bigotries that could not previously be effectively addressed.

Today, in this day and age, we have been granted the right of freedom of speech to voice objections to this sort of religious bigotry. The Internet has provided the means. It becomes the microphone to speak to the world.

So what are you suggesting?

That people should just refrain from speaking out what they feel has been a religious atrocity that has been supported for far too long already?

Consider this, you said:


There is nothing stopping those who want to live their lives in any way these choose. They don't need to come here and "defend" their religion against the views of people who totally disagree with it and feel that it is full of contradictions and absurdities.

Especially on this site. This site was wise enough to create a separate Christians Singles forum were Christians can indeed gather and support each others views without any need to hear the views of people who object to the fundamental doctrines and stories.

It's not like they have no place to go or choice in the matter.

~~~~~

The very basis of Christianity (and the Abrahamic religions in general), are religious stories that claim that every human being is a sinner in dire need of repentant with some God who punishes people for absurd things like merely not believing in the claims being made by these doctrines.

The Christians themselves hold Jesus up as an excuse to support some pretty sick stuff, IMHO.

The Jews did not believe that Jesus was the "only begotten son of God".

So that view right there in and of itself should be highly respectable and a valid religious view.

When I say that I don't believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of the God of Abraham, I'm not saying anything more than what the Jews have been claiming for over 2000 years.

That is obviously a valid religious view. And has been since the question of Jesus' divinity ever came up.

The Muslims don't recognize the divinity of Jesus either.

These are valid religious views mg.

~~~~

Moreover, if the Muslims and Jews can renounce Jesus as the only begotten son of the God in their spiritual doctrines, why can I not also dismiss the the God in their spiritual doctrines as being incorrect?

The only reason that you view any of this as being "negative" is because you'd like to support the idea that Jesus was indeed the only begotten son of God who can "save" people from this God's wrath.

So you view anyone who questions that view to be "negative" or our to "ambush" your views.

But think about it mg. Christian evangelism has itself been out to "ambush" the views of all other religions. They don't do it by pointing out the absurdities in other religions (in many cases they can't do that because many other religions simply aren't absurd so there's nothing to pick at).

But instead they do it by ignorantly refusing to even acknowledge that other religions are even worthy of consideration or discussion. All they want to talk about is why Jesus is the "ONLY WAY".

But that, my friend, is an automatic dismissal of all other religions as having any merit. So for many other people that very claim right there is a 'negative' and insulting rhetoric being shoved in their face.

You're just seeing what all the non-Christians have been seeing for centuries. Total rejection of their religions as being unworthy of consideration.

We just get into the details.

~~~~

And there's a perfectly legitimate reason for that.

It comes directly from Christian evangelism.

A Christian holds out the notion that we need to be "saved".

Then we ask, "Saved" from what?

Then they start in with the whole biblical rhetoric that all mankind has fallen from grace from God and is in dire need of repentance.

Then we explain why we don't believe any of that.

They then argue for why they think we should believe it.

And the exchange continues until it evolves today into "The Great Debate" of whether or not people should give the claims of Christianity any merit.

The Christians claim, YES, we should.

The non-Christians claim, NO, we should not.

And this is the inevitable evolution of such a religion. It can evolve into nothing else but an argument of whether or not people should believe in it.

What else could it have possibly evolved into?

It's innate to any religion that claims to have the "Only True Word of God" and especially if it's going to be claiming that Jesus is the son of a mortal virgin woman and God who was sent to pay for our salvation.

That is one WHALE of a claim MG.

Can you seriously blame anyone for pointing out all the contradictions and absurdities associated with that, especially when it is being constantly proselytized to be the "gospel truth" day-in and day-out, and even being held up as fodder to support political agendas in the "name of God".

Those are serious claims MG, and require serious interrogation.

It's not at all about just allowing Christians to believe whatever they want. Because it is the very nature of their religious convictions to try to PUSH their religious views onto others in the "Name of God".

And therein lies the problem MG.

alot of 'they' talk (judgment) for such non judgmental non christians,,,,,hmmmm

everyone(christians and non christians) can really stand to do some 'I' talk (self reflective)

,,,great example here of the lesson about removing the twig from your own eye,,,,



instead of , insisting one group is expressly judgmental by passing judgment and preceding to pass judgment on their sanity or intelligence


instead of, insisting only one group tries to convince others they are 'wrong' while preceding to post pages about why that group is 'wrong'....


.....we never learn as humans,, whatever our beliefs,, do we?

I actually agree with Slowhand too.

I believe that most people who call themselves "Christians" don't even have a clue what's actually in the Bible much less have any need to believe it to be accurate.

I actually have no problem with the vast majority of people who call themselves "Christians" they are just innocent victims of a mythology that got out of hand.

What people who call themselves "Christians" think is irrelevant from my perspective.

All that concerns me is what the scriptures actually CLAIM.

I address the value of the actual scriptures, not the misinformed views of followers who are merely trying to do what's "right".

Good post Abra!




And yet the Judeo-Christian movement reveres the Jews as God's lost and chosen people, persecuted and gone astray, and supports Zionism which is an oppressive political and God-less movement.

Little do they know that King David, Abraham, and all those descendants and stories are fictitious and that is the foundation of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, the fake religions of the world.

At the same time if you know something is wrong and you don't tell another person that may go along with it that it is, is that love? I don't quite believe it is.

Who? Some one up here has a problem with you? Or do you mean Christians in general who are not up here?

Hi Sis. More like a forest in the eyes lol. I think some here grew up in a saw mill.

Honestly though I just think that some have had really bad experiences around believers that were maybe not so cool and it made them a little blind to the peaceful side of things.

love

Apparently so.
Christians in general have a problem with me voicing my views.

Agreed. Do you see anyone doing that here, that is a Christian? I don't.

Naah, your cool. No one here has a problem with you that I know of.

this sounds like the opposite view to those who say christians shouldnt determine 'wrong' for someone else,,,

hey won't you play,another somebody done somebody wrong song

i wonder what this song would sound like on the organ