And condoning the crucifixion of an innocent man on your behalf to pay for you sins is not selfish?

If you don't like for your religion to be "bashed" then why are you so anxious to continually "bash" mine?

Why are you so rude Cowboy?

I try to explain to you why I don't buy into your interpretations and religion, and you turn around and "bash" my views.

I'm sorry to say this Cowboy, but your whole approach to religion appears to be quite hypocritical to me.

You have no problem insinuating and accusing me of "not accepting our creator", and critiquing my religious views.

But if I critique your religion views, I'm "bashing" your religion?

At least I don't pass judgment on your relationship with God.

As far as I'm concerned you may very well get your eternal life in paradise. I have no clue. That's entirely between you and the creator and has nothing at all to do with me. I wouldn't even venture a guess.

That's good Cowboy.

I'm glad that you enjoy your religion and your relationship with God.

I too enjoy my religion and my relationship with God.

And that's what spirituality is supposed to be all about.

I passed no judgment, I said not weather you will get to heaven cause of your beliefs or not. I bashed nothing, I said not one bad thing about your beliefs, I did not try to belittle your beliefs as you do all the time about the crucifixion.

spirituality? You say that like there are two different levels of life. There is but one level, we're in it. There is not "spiritual" level or something of such.

Sure you do.

You just implied only a view posts ago that I do not wish to accept the GIFT that Jesus has set out before me. And you implied that I need to "change my mind":



I also find this quite ironic that you're so worry that I might LOSE out on a GIFT after you just claimed that we aren't supposed to do anything for a REWARD.

I had to take a double-take on this post. For a moment I thought an atheist had just dropped into the conversation.

So where is Jesus then?

And the multitude of saints who rose from their graves during his resurrection?

They aren't here, they must be somewhere else.

Accepting a given gift and a reward are two totally different things abra. I could go up to a total stranger and offer them a "gift". Did they earn it? No, I would not have known them before I met them at that very moment.

And I implied nothing, you're just making assumptions and accusations now. You don't "have" to accept the gift of heaven. The only things you have to do is pay taxes.

Being obedient to our father isn't for the reward. It is for showing of our love to our father. It isn't for the reward or gift. It's for being obedient and showing our love to our father. Actions speak louder then words. One can not buy God a box of chocolates on father's day to show appreciation and gratitude, so we show our appreciation through obedience.

Sure Jesus is here. I see Jesus everyday. The saints are in heaven. We can not see heaven for God hid it from us.

Hucksters are anyone who would take advantage
of the innocent and unsuspecting.
They are wolves who come to steal, kill and destroy.

Those wolves do come in sheep's clothing...

They come upon God's innocent lambs
and try to sell them lies in the form of false doctrine.
They come upon God's innocent lambs
to sow doubt in their minds,
to cause them to possibly doubt
the very existence of the God of their salvation...
they stir up any dispute with argumentiveness.

They pretend to be wounded and confused by God's Word.

And they have no purpose toward goodness
except to strip it from those who appreciate it.
They are short-sighted, unwise,
and have no good intentions
not even for their own personal well-being.

These flock-tempting hucksters are usually unbelievers
and atheists, miserable and lonely
they hate to see others at peace
and in love with their God.

Many of them have a death wish.

Believers beware!!!

Christianity has the greatest risk of hucksters.
Always has and always will.


1, These words spake Jesus,
and lifted up his eyes to heaven,
and said,

"Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh,
that he should give eternal life
to as many as thou hast given him.

3, And this is life eternal,
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4, I have glorified thee on the earth:
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5, And now, O Father, glorify thou me
with thine own self with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was.

6, I have manifested thy name unto the men
which thou gavest me out of the world:
thine they were, and thou gavest them me;
and they have kept thy word.

7, Now they have known that all things
whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8, For I have given unto them the words
which thou gavest me; and they have received them,
and have known surely that I came out from thee,
and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9, I pray for them: I pray not for the world,
but for them which thou hast given me;
for they are thine.

10, And all mine are thine, and thine are mine;
and I am glorified in them.

11, And now I am no more in the world,
but these are in the world, and I come to thee.
Holy Father, keep through thine own name
those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one,
as we are.

12, While I was with them in the world,
I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept,
and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;
that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13, And now come I to thee;
and these things I speak in the world,
that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14, I have given them thy word;
and the world hath hated them,
because they are not of the world,
even as I am not of the world.

15, I pray not that thou shouldest take them
out of the world,
but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16, They are not of the world,
even as I am not of the world.

17, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18, As thou hast sent me into the world,
even so have I also sent them into the world.

19, And for their sakes I sanctify myself,
that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20, Neither pray I for these alone,
but for them also which shall believe on me
through their word;

21, That they all may be one; as thou,
Father, art in me, and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22, And the glory which thou gavest me
I have given them; that they may be one,
even as we are one:

23, I in them, and thou in me,
that they may be made perfect in one;
and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,
and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24, Father, I will that they also,
whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:
for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25, O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee:
but I have known thee,
and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26, And I have declared unto them thy name,
and will declare it: that the love wherewith
thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."

John 17:1-26

Yeah right.

Most people who point out the absurdities of the biblical doctrine do so in response to extremely religious bigotry and finger-pointing.

They hardly going around seeking out "innocent lambs" trying to sow seeds of doubt in their minds.

If Christians want to live in glass houses they shouldn't be throwing stones at other religions and other people.

I explain to religious people why I'm not buying their constant badgering and proselytizing that the Bible is the "Word of God".

If they weren't constantly going around doing that in the first place I wouldn't even bother mentioned their religion. It's totally a reaction to their constantly proselyting and accusing others of "Rejecting God".

In fact, just look at the Abrahamic religions themselves. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity constantly pointing fingers at each other and accusing the other of "rejecting God's word" and worshiping the "WRONG DOCTRINES".

Even the Christians have fallen apart into opposing sects that reject each others ideas about these doctrines. The Catholics and Protestants don't even consider "each other" to be actual "Christians". And then of course the Protestants themselves have fallen into a myriad of disagreeing sects who can never agree on anything.

All of these finger-pointing religions exist because they are all based on the very same "Jealous God Concept". The God who hates heathens were a heathen is simply defined as anyone who doesn't agree with the "Word of God". So since all of these different religious sects have become diverse in what they consider to be the "Word of God" they all point fingers at each other.

And ironically it's the protesting Protestants who have become the worst offenders in terms of trying to proselytize their particular version of the doctrine as the "Only True Word of God".

They have made Jesus isn't the ultimate "Rubber Doll Idol" to beat over the heads of everyone who refuses to suck up to their version of religious bigotry.

The are probably the single most disgraceful sect of the whole convoluted religion. They not only beat the Catholics, Muslims and Jews over the head with their Rubber Jesus Doll, but they even beat atheists over the head with it too, and Wiccans, and Buddhists, and you name it.

I'm sorry but it's really hard to have respect for people who treat their very own Jesus with such disrespect.

And then they cry "Wolf" when people explain why they aren't buying into the religion and point out the fallacies and myriad of hypocrisies and contradictions associated with it.

'

Why are you "bashing" our religion? What did we ever do to you?

What?

Here's my favorite cartoon that shows exactly what's actually happening:



It's the epitome of hypocrisy.

Who are the real "wolfs" here who abuse their very own religious figure?

Christian haters: Making Jesus' prophecies come true one day at a time.

The problem is that it's the Christians who spew hatred toward others by accusing them of either rejecting God or worshiping false Gods.

There is no 'hatred' being directed back at them.

All people are doing is trying to explain to the hateful Christians why aren't buying into the Christian hate.

First: God should only be capitalized when it is used as a name for a particular god. Just as you would for any proper name. To say "worshiping false Gods" is either bad grammar or a childish taunt meant to anger Christians. Knowing you, I would say it's definitely the latter.

Second: You can't claim that no "hatred" is directed at Christians and say "hateful Christians" and "Christian hate" and remain intellectually coherent.

Third: If you don't believe in God, then why do you care if someone says "You are rejecting God"? Why not just say "Yes, I am" and let it go? Tell me I'm rejecting Ganesha. I won't care, it won't offend me in the least. Tell me I'm worshiping a false god and I'll simply disagree. You are overly angry at Christians for something which shouldn't matter to you at all. If you don't believe in God, then why get so worked up about it? Everyone here knows that a single quoted sentence from a Christian will be followed by thousands of your hate filled words about Christianity. You have some serious issues that you need to work through. "Christian hate" is the least of your problems.

To begin with, how and when a person decides to capitalizes a word like "God" may indeed depend on how they are using it at the time. I actually capitalize the word a lot when referring to the Biblical "God" to show at least some respect for the Christian belief.

That fact that I actually believe the Biblical stories are nothing more than man-made myths is my own personal belief.

Secondly to recognize that someone is constantly doing hateful things toward you is not an act of hatred toward them. It's merely an acknowledgment of what they are doing toward you.

Thirdly I do believe in "God".

I just don't believe that the Hebrew folklore is the "Word of God".

So for you to ask me to say things like "Yes I am rejecting God", would be to ask me to recognize that the biblical picture of God is indeed true and that I'm rejecting God.

You see, from my point of view the term "God" is a generic term meant to refer to the creator of all that exists. We often capitalize this word simply because it's tradition. Otherwise no one would ever capitalize it. Like you say, it's not someone's name.

From you're saying here I can only imagine that you think the Christians hold the patent rights on "God".

You say that I'm "overly angry" at Christians for some reason. But again you totally misunderstand. What I am against are "Jealous Gods", and their again I capitalized the term even though I'm using it plural in this case. I'm even actually referring to totally imaginary make-believe entities in this case because I personal don't believe in "Jealous Gods".

~~~~~

Now take a look at what's really happening here Spider and hopefully you'll understand what I'm saying.

It is my sincere belief that the the legends of the god of Abraham are false. (ok, I used lowercase there for your sake, because I don't believe that the god of Abraham is anything more than a myth).

That's a personally belief. And it in no way reflects hatred toward anyone.

I personally believe that the entire Torah and Old Testament are man-made myths. Again, that's just a personal belief. No hatred intended toward anyone.

So since I believe this, then what is my explanation for the New Testament of the Christians?

Well, it's my belief that a man named Jesus (or something along those lines) actually did exist. He actually did reject the teachings of the Torah or Old Testament. And he actually was crucified for preaching his views.

So I accept that a man named Jesus lived, taught, and died a horrible death at that hands of a mob. I even believe that he was indeed crucified due to religious superstitions of the day. superstitions that I personally believe that Jesus himself was trying to renounce.


Then what happened? What about all the stuff written in the New Testament? Well, I believe that came into being from rumors. I also personally believe that it was intentionally written with the specific purpose of using the rumors of Jesus to actually prop up the very dogma (the Torah) that Jesus himself had rejected.

They saw an opportunity to make this guy into a prophecized messiah that they felt that could get people to buy into. And they succeeded in creating a religion in this way. Even though the Jews themselves weren't buying into it.

So that's my belief.

Is there anything "hateful" toward Christians in any of that?

No, absolutely not!

There is nothing hateful toward Christians in that.

Moreover, any decent Christian should accept that my views are indeed reasonable. They should honor my right to have come to these conclusions without any need to start accusing me of rejecting God, or being "angry with Christians" and blah blah blah.

Where's the anger?

There's is no anger until they start accusing me of all sorts of horrible things.

All they need to do is acknowledge that my views reasonable for me.

Now if they want to argue with me that my views are unreasonable and blah, blah, blah, I need to accept that the Old Testament is indeed the "Word of God" and I need to accept the Jesus was "The Christ".

Then who is it that starting up all the ****?

That can only lead to me having to explain why I don't believe in the Old Testament, and why I don't believe that Jesus was "The Christ".

And then when I do that they start to accuse me of being "hateful" toward their religion?

Well excuse me, but if they don't want to argue with me about it all they need to do accept that I have my conclusions and they have theirs. No need to argue about it at all.

But they refuse to do that. They insist that I'm "bashing" their religion, when in truth, I simply have a different view of historical events. What they see as the "Word of God", I see as a religious scam created by the Hebrews to justify their hatred aimed at other cultures who didn't have the same beliefs as them.

That's just an honest sincere view.

The Christians won't allow me to have an honest sincere view without accusing me of "rejecting God", and/or "bashing their religion".

They refuse to accept my honesty and sincerity.

The whole Hebrew religion was set-up precisely to be like that. It was set up teaching it's followers that anyone who doesn't accept it should be considered to be a "Heathen" who is at odds with "God".

And in that sense, I hold that it's inherently a hateful religion. In incites religious bigotry that is even apparent between all of the religious fragments and sects that this mother religion has since broken into. They have all retained the "Jealous God" concept.

And that's my thesis.

It's just an objective observation of what these religions are and how they came to be what they are today.

Christians don't like it because I guess I'm ultimately suggesting that they have all been duped by the ancient Hebrews. Well I can't help that. That's just what I honestly believe to be truth.

Exodus 20: 3&5
3 You shall have no other gods before me.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Lets speak about jealousy shall we, Jealousy is an emotion that denotes envy of another person or being because of some ability or skill that other person or being has. Was God Jealous that something more powerful than he created him. Is that why he refused to acknowledge his creator?
Jealousy is just the tip of the iceberg. The god of the bible has never had a problem with expressing all of the petty, primitive, and shameful emotions that humans struggle to overcome. He doesn't just exhibit them, he wallows in them. And then he gets a free pass because he supposedly created the universe.

Well even if he did exist, such a douchebag being still wouldn't get my praise and appreciation. Respect is earned, and you prove your respect by your actions. Yes, even if you're god, and this god has a hell of a lot to answer to.

thank goodness for freedom of choice

and much respect to the cosmic karma that demands all choices have consequences(good or bad)

Jealousy and Envy are two different emotions.

Jealousy means that someone feels inferior in some regard when compared to another.

Envy means that someone is desirous of some quality or possession of another, but doesn't feel inferior.

Similar emotions but very different.

When the Bible uses the word "Jealous" to describe God, it's not the same word that would be used for you or me. In fact, the particular word that is translated as "jealous" in the Bible is used exclusively for God. It means "Possessive of what God owns". It's not the jealousy of the awkward guy who can't get a date, it's the jealously of a faithful husband over his adulterous wife.

Not believing in is not 'hatred'...

Simply because a person intreprets gods message in a way different from yours is not reason to assume that the person 'hates' your view...

I see and hear this particular quote used all the time to denigrate anyone that has a differing opinion.

Personally I think that most of the time when a person 'hates' another it is directly related to the way that 'other' treats the people arround him...

and has nothing to do with the Name of Jesus.