The 5 minute thing was figuratively speaking. Once you have made it to heaven, there is nothing to be forgiven for, cause obviously you've been forgiven or you would not have entered. My 5 minute thing was speaking of such you mess up and get frustrated with someone one day and out of rage hit them. Then you ask for forgiveness of that, that day. Then a week later you repeat this. Then one day you lie, ask for forgiveness, then a couple days later lie again. How can your asking for forgiveness be sincere when you continuously live like this? That is where repenting from such actions come into play.

nice compliment,, btw

There's no need to have any sympathy for me Cowboy.

I reject the offer to have Jesus crucified for my sake. Period. I don't care what kind of "prize" might be associated with that. I don't condone having Jesus crucified for my sake for any prize.

If that's the cost of heaven, the cost is far to great. I'm never going to condone such a pathetic and ignorant act on my behalf.

Moreover, I would not want to live in an eternal place where the only people who are there are people who would condone such a thing. Why would I even want to associate with such people?




Well, from what you have stated, you are "stumbling and falling" all the time. So evidently, by your own reasoning, you have never been sincere in terms of your own "repentance".

Like AB had suggested, Jesus would need to be crucified on a daily basis just to keep up with your insincerity.

It appears to me that you just take Jesus for granted and don't even truly appreciate the sacrifices he supposedly made for you anyway.

I see no value in your religion, even if it's true. As I have often said, I would want no parts of any such scenario. This religion as you present it is totally unworthy of consideration. If true, I would have no choice but to refuse this God's game plan.

The only option that would truly be open to me would be to reject his so-called "gift" of eternal life, because the criteria that he has designed around it are far beneath my moral value. I would need to stoop so low and basically become someone that I could not even live with, in order to attain his so-called "gift" of eternal life.

It wouldn't be worth it. Why would I want to live for eternity if I need to become a disgusting person in order to achieve that goal?

I would far rather die in righteousness.

And so that would be my choice given this religion as you portray it to be. I would gladly choose spiritual death.

No problem.

So there you go Cowboy, if your religion it true and your portrait of it genuinely reflects the true nature and character of our creator, then I reject that creator and his so-called "gifts".

All I can say is that, if the religion is true the way you portray it, I am extremely disappointed in our creator. He will have turned out to be a total disappointment for me, and in that scenario atheism would have been a far better picture.

At least with atheism their would be no pathetic God to feel sorry for and disappointed in.

~~~~~

Of course, just for the record, what I'm rejecting here is your portrait of an ancient fable. Clearly there are better interpretations to be had. Not everyone paints such a pathetic picture of this God as you do.

So I don't even need to reject the "religion" in general. Just your personal version of it.

In fact, here's a very healthy and loving version of it that is far more attractive than the picture you paint.

http://www.avalongrove.org/

In fact, I have my views on these religious fables as well. And my version of the religion is far more loving too, IMHO.

So I guess I just don't like your version of it is all.

It appears I take his sacrifice for granted and don't appreciate the gift?

How did you get that from what I said? All I ever do is talk about how wonderful, great, incredible, and loving his gift was for us. You're the one whom does not wish to accept such a thing, so therefore you're the one that doesn't appreciate it.



Who says you have to be a disgusting person first to achieve anything? What justifies a disgusting person? A murderer? A rapist? A compulsive liar? The list could go on, what would you consider to be a disgusting person? Cause one sin is not greater then the other. Disobedience is disobedience. Doesn't matter if you had good intentions, doesn't matter if it's from lying, doesn't matter if it's from killing. We will have our judgment on that faithful day. And besides that, who are you to decide what is disgusting and or who is a disgusting person? Who are you to make that judgment?



Lol, you take me all wrong. You act like i'm here to recruit, to persuade, to convert, or something of that such. I'm merely here for the discussion. If the lord touches someone's heart from reading something here, that's incredibly great. But that is not my main point of being here and discussing in here. The biggest reason I am here is to keep people from spreading lies about the lord, trying to paint him out to be an evil person or make God look cruel.

I portray nothing as disgusting or pathetic. You're the one whom tries to twist the wording around and take things out of context to make it appear as such. That's all you my friend. God is incredible. He is magnificent. God's love is unbounded for everyone. God shows mercy everyday, God is righteous.



Ego and pride will get you no where my friend. So is it moral to continuously downgrade someone else's beliefs? The very reason of their existence? Is it moral to continuously talk bad about someone/something extremely important to another? You don't believe in the truth of the bible? Fine, that is your choice. But why try to degrade another person's beliefs? Is it really moral to downgrade another's beliefs? These beliefs hold every reasoning of their existence.

Well, you're the one who has repeatedly said that you are continually "stumbling and falling" and "giving in to the charm of Satan".

Well, if "stumbling and falling" means that you continue to "sin", they you are either constantly repeating the same "sins" over an over again, which would make our "repentance" insincere. Or you're constantly finding new sins to commit.

I have no clue what you do. But neither situation sounds very sincere to me. I'm only going by what you have revealed about your relationship with Jesus.



I personally find it disgusting to accept and condone the crucifixion of an innocent man on your behalf to "pay" for you sins.

Like I say, if that's the only way I can "pay" for my sins then the cost is too high. If I can't "pay" for my sins on my own merit then I'm not interested in having anyone else pay for them.

From my point of view that would be disgusting. So if I accept your version of this religion there is no respectable way for me to obtain this God's so-called "gift" of eternal life.

It's that simple.



Well, I think you do a very find job of that yourself.

Like I say, based on your portrait of this religion I find it totally disgusting and appalling. But that's just me obviously.

As I have stated many times, I have a far more loving picture of the religion. In order for me to have to trade in my vision of this religion for yours I would need to totally downgrade my vision of the religion.

I accept the WORD of Jesus when he says that he will not judge those who do not believe his words. And (assuming he said that at all), he was clearly speaking of his own words. How much less would he expect anyone to believe in the hearsay rumors that were written about him by other people after he died?

So if Jesus truly said, to those to whom he was actually speaking to live, that he will not judge them for not believing him, then he most certainly wouldn't judge anyone for not believing in any gossip that was written by other people about him after he died.

He also supposedly said that he did not come from the righteous but for the sinners.

He also supposedly said that, in heaven, the joy of a sinner repented is far greater than for the ninety and nine just people who did not need repentace. That implies, to me, that 99% of the people in heaven were never sinners in the first place.

Taking all of this account I come up with a totally different picture from the one that you paint.

Sure, you can "argue" against the picture I see. But why bother?

Why not just recognize that everyone sees things differently.

You appear to be out to demand that everyone is a sinner, and that everyone needs to acknowledge that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and that everyone needs to accept that Jesus died to pay for their sins.

Apparently that's your view of this religion.

From my point of view, that is a very narrow view that isn't the slightest bit attractive to me. Nor does it fit in with the scriptures as I read them.

Your view of this religion condemns non-believers as though they have done something wrong for simply not believing in the religion. I find that very notion to be totally unacceptable and irrational. Certainly not something that I personally believe that an all-wise God would condone.

My view recognizes that Jesus provided for non-believers by clearly stating that non-belief will not be sufficient grounds for him to judge against a person.

Besides, Jesus also supposedly said that we will be judged as we judge, and that if we judge not we will not be judged.

So if I'm going to give these tales any merit at all I must take Jesus at his word. Since I never morally judge anyone, then I will not be morally judged myself, for Jesus has promised me so, according to these scriptures.

So I have a totally different view of the religion than you do.

And since you're just here for discussion then, in the spirit of discussion, you should be glad to hear other people's views and acknowledge that there views are true for them.

I have no problem with your views being true for you. I you want to believe that your a sinner in need of repentance and the only way to obtain that repentance is to accept Jesus as your sacrificial lamb. Then by all means please do so.

I have no problem with that whatsoever.

But if you're going to try to insist that I buy that picture for myself then you're barking up the wrong tree.

So when you say things like:


You're jumping to huge conclusions about me and my "wishes".

Plus your pushing your version of this religion onto me by suggesting that I need to "change my mind".

I have no need to "change my mind". I have a perfectly loving relationship with Jesus via my own views of these ancient stories.

Who are you to judge my relationship with Jesus?

I wasn't even alive when Jesus was crucified. I refuse to assume guilt where there is none.

So, who killed all those people in the flood?

If the Biblical stories are true, I was created by god to sin. That's a pretty nasty trick--a set-up or sting, even.

You only believe the words of Jesus? Works for me.

John 12:47-48

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You were not created to sin. Sin is the act of disobedience. It is a choice, a decision, your choice, your decision.



No one died in the flood that I personally know of. The only way to die is not receive the gift of heaven. And I have no idea if anyone went to heaven or not.

I'm sorry Sir, but your the one who is attempting to ram your religious views down my throat.

If you want to believe in your religion as you portray it, be my guest. Have I not always said as much?

You are the only who constantly making accusations about my relationship with my creator.

You try to shove your dogma in my face, and I simply tell you why I don't buy into your claims.

Then you accuse me of "degrading" or "bashing" your beliefs?

This kind of religious proselytizing is the greatest and most underhanded trick that mankind has ever devised.

Shove your religion in the face of another and accuse them of turning against the creator of the universe. If they refuse to swallow it and start explaining why they don't believe in your dogma, then accuse them of "bashing" your religion.

So with your religion there are only two possibilities:

Either people must cower down to your spiritual accusations and accept your dogma, or they are charged with "blaspheme!" (i.e. bashing your religion for not accepting it with open arms)

This is precisely why this religion has become the monster it is today. You with cower down to it, or the proselytizers will execute you, if not physically at least in character!

I'm already being "recognized" as being a "hateful" person just from conversing with you so much.

You can't lose.

I either accept your religion, or I am condemned as a "religion basher".

That's precisely what keeps your religion alive. This kind of constant harassment and character assignation of anyone who dares to stand up against it.

This is why I say that it's such a hateful dogma. Either be assimilated or assassinated. No other options will be tolerated.

Try to even show a potentially loving interpretation of the religion and you'll still be assassinated.

Like I say, if you want to believe in your religion as your portray it, more power to you!

I personally prefer to see it in a far more loving light.

You're never going to get me to cower down to your interpretation of the religion.

It's never gonna happen.

It's just not a required view for healthy spirituality, IMHO.

That is what Christianity is about. That is where Christianity starts, accepting the sacrifice made by Jesus for us all. Without Jesus our "christ", you don't have "Christ"ianity. Without accept Jesus as your Christ "savor", there is no salvation. Jesus is the path to our father who art in heaven.

I'm not ramming any beliefs down anyone's throat. If you do not wish to believe, that is fine. Nothing I can do about that, that is YOU choice. I just won't sit back while someone "not specifically meaning you" spreads lies about God, Jesus, or what is in the bible. If you do not accept my interpretation, that's fine. I'm not trying to make you take particularly my interpretation, just again will not sit in the background while you could be destroying the possibility of someone else finding God.

I have no problem at all with that. On the contrary that's precisely what I would expect a Mahayana Buddhist to say.

I'll definitely answer to "The Word that Jesus has Spoken" Cowboy. No problem there whatsoever. It's just the 12 laws of Karma and Buddhism. That's what Jesus taught. He taught KARMA.

I totally accept.

It's not a problem in the least.


What did you think he was referring to? The WORDS in the TORAH?

If so, THINK AGAIN!

What did Jesus say again? "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day"

He wasn't referring to the Torah, he was referring to his own teachings which is nothing more than the laws of Karma as far I can see. Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist as far as I'm concerned. He didn't even agree with the words of the Torah.

You're never force your version of this dogma onto me. It's not going to fit.

Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist as far as I'm concerned. And most everything fits that scenario just fine thank you. And anything that doesn't fit, I simply reject as false hearsay rumors.

After all, I have no reason to believe that the New Testament is the "inspired Word of God". And therefore I don't need to accept every single verse verbatim.

Jesus never even instructed anyone to write anything down.

He was just a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva doing what Bodhisattvas do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus didn't teach Karma. Karma is moreorless what comes around goes around. Jesus did not teach this. Jesus didn't teach do 1 bad thing and 3 bad things will happen to you, those might not be the exact numbers but it generally teaches that. Jesus taught to be loving out of just that, love. Not for a reward, not for anything, just out of love. Karma = Do 1 good deed to receive a gift, Do 1 bad deed to receive something foul. This was NOT what Jesus taught. There is not punishment on earth, nothing bad coming to us because of our actions while still on earth. We will have one judgment for our actions and one judgment only.

Not really. But I do agree that this is where evangelists and proselytizers would love for it to start. However that very notions is a huge misconception (and basically a lie) to begin with.

Jesus has no feet of his own in Christianity. Jesus is nothing in Christianity if not the "Only Begotten Son of God". He entirely stands on the shoulders of the God of Abraham.

And because of this, Christianity truly does not START with Jesus. On the contrary it STARTS with the Old Testament. In fact, anyone who accepts Jesus as their "savior" without having fully understand the God of the Old Testament and everything that leads up to the need for that "salvation" is actually accepting with total insincerity because they can't even have a clue what they are supposedly accepting.

So Christianity cannot START with Jesus. It's must start with the God of the Old Testament, and in fact, it must START with Satan. Satan must come before Jesus in this religion.

Before it even makes sense to accept Jesus as your "savior" you must first accept Satan as your "demon". Otherwise you have nothing to be "saved" from.

I totally renounce the entire Old Testament as being nothing more than just an extension of Zeus-like fables, right up to and including concepts such as blood sacrifices appeasing the God.

I see no reason whatsoever to give anything in the Old Testament anymore merit than I would give to Greek Mythology.

So by the time I get to the New Testament, I'm already at a point where Jesus needs to be something other than the "only begotten son" of the God of the Old Testament.

So Christianity cannot START with Jesus. You must first believe in the God of the Old Testament and everything that goes with that. Moreover, according to the Old Testament you must also LOVE that God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. If you don't already LOVE the Old Testament God in that way then falling in love with Jesus would be a moot point anyway.

Well, with all sincerity I did not even like the God of the Old Testament very much at all. So to pretend that I like him just to grasp at a supposed gift of eternal life would be foolish anyway.

But I do like Jesus. And it's no wonder, because he was quite different from the God of the Old Testament. Jesus was most likely a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva and that's why everyone finds him to be so lovable.

With Karma, that is seeking a reward for your good deeds. Is it really a good deed if you do it out of expectant of a reward? Would it not be then in vein? Not sincerely done? Only not doing the bad things to keep bad things from happening to you? Sounds quite selfish.

hmmm? Old testament god?... New testament god?... Hmm it's the same god, the same father. And no Christianity still revolves around Jesus. The old testament starts with him, the new starts with him. In the old testament times Jesus was "The word". The word was in the beginning with God, God then made the word flesh who dwelt among us, Jesus. Jesus has ALWAYS been the only way to God.

Your gross misunderstanding of Karma is not my problem.

Besides, I'm not trying to get you to agree with my view of Christian history and doctrine.

I'm not judging your relationship with God.

If you want to believe in the standard orthodox view of Christian fundamentalism be my guest.

I feel confident that our creator will be very happy with your devotion to your religious views.

As long as you're sincere in heart that's all that matters as far as I can see.

That's all God wants us to be Cowboy. Just be sincere at heart and you're all set.

It's no problem. You'll get your eternal life in paradise if that's what you so desire and deserve. I don't take that away from you.

Jesus' teachings were the same as the old testament teachings. The ONLY difference is when/how one is judged.

Christianity isn't directly about how you live your life per say. Christianity is about worshiping our father in heaven. We do this through our obedience. Doing something loving for another isn't about gaining a reward of some sort for ourselves, it's about obeying our father and doing HIS will. It's not about living for ourself and bettering of oneself, it's about living for our father who art in heaven and sharing his love with the people of this world.