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Topic: Do you think that....
Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Wed 01/19/11 07:06 PM
I disagree. Slavery by definition means without a choice for the slave. All bad. If there is a choice then it becomes a job even if you are only paid room and board. not so if you look up what INDENTURED SERVITUDE/ INDENTURED SLAVES were or if you check Miriam Webster or if you review a bible concordance to find out the different forms of 'slavery' which were enacted during biblical times or if you review a history source outlining SLAVERY throughout the history of mankind slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) If they willingly submit it isn't slavery. Slavery is A FORCED act on people or peoples. Now forcing can be coercion, physical force, starvation etc... But it is still forced. If they willingly submit they are working for their employer for whatever compensation is given. You can't make it right no matter how you try. Slavery is wrong wrong wrong.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Wed 01/19/11 07:08 PM
I disagree. Slavery by definition means without a choice for the slave. All bad. If there is a choice then it becomes a job even if you are only paid room and board. not so if you look up what INDENTURED SERVITUDE/ INDENTURED SLAVES were or if you check Miriam Webster or if you review a bible concordance to find out the different forms of 'slavery' which were enacted during biblical times or if you review a history source outlining SLAVERY throughout the history of mankind slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) If they willingly submit it isn't slavery. Slavery is A FORCED act on people or peoples. Now forcing can be coercion, physical force, starvation etc... But it is still forced. If they willingly submit they are working for their employer for whatever compensation is given. You can't make it right no matter how you try. Slavery is wrong wrong wrong. that is one opinion there is more than one definition of slavery , most saying nothing about force submissive is often exchanged for the term slave, because SUBMISSION is the absolute requirement of slavery,, not force

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Wed 01/19/11 07:28 PM
This bears repeating Msharmony.. Do you understand the difference between using a person solely as a means to an end, and the overall well-being of humanity being an end in itself? We can focus upon that point, and may need to in order to avoid any more misunderstandings. Who decides what is the 'overall wellbeing of humanity'?

Redykeulous Joined Thu 11/09/06 Posts: 6052	Wed 01/19/11 07:51 PM
I suppose I should not expect any sense to be made by one who does not have that capability. Chalk it up to experience. Di, you were wrong. WOWSER I've missed a ton here. I'm trying to catch up, this is my third time trying and I got to THE ABOVE. I must have missed it - What am I wrong about? I wasn't going to post at all, just try to catch up, but I couldn't let this one go.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Wed 01/19/11 07:51 PM
I disagree. Slavery by definition means without a choice for the slave. All bad. If there is a choice then it becomes a job even if you are only paid room and board. not so if you look up what INDENTURED SERVITUDE/ INDENTURED SLAVES were or if you check Miriam Webster or if you review a bible concordance to find out the different forms of 'slavery' which were enacted during biblical times or if you review a history source outlining SLAVERY throughout the history of mankind slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) If they willingly submit it isn't slavery. Slavery is A FORCED act on people or peoples. Now forcing can be coercion, physical force, starvation etc... But it is still forced. If they willingly submit they are working for their employer for whatever compensation is given. You can't make it right no matter how you try. Slavery is wrong wrong wrong. that is one opinion there is more than one definition of slavery , most saying nothing about force submissive is often exchanged for the term slave, because SUBMISSION is the absolute requirement of slavery,, not force Submission happens through force in slavery there is no other way for it to happen. If a person willingly submits to another human in this situation it then is not slavery anymore.

sweetestgirl11 Joined Fri 09/12/08 Posts: 30087	Wed 01/19/11 07:58 PM
I disagree. If Christianity were about life, reward would not come after death, many rewards are evident in the corporeal life - rewards come everyday in small miracles that happen everyday. but dragoness, many Christians, myself included, are weak in our knowledge of doctrine that is needed to really address your questions academically but to me the knowledge of doctrine is not as important as the behavioral aspects -to lead a life based on Jesus' teaching in the NEW Testament- the call to love- to forgiveness because we are men not divine- the call to seek peace with one's neighbor and follow the golden rule - I don't really much care about the rest of it

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Wed 01/19/11 08:00 PM
Msharmony: lol, ok , lets keep it simple I do understand using a person solely as a means to an ends, it means that the situation is entered into with only ONE person having a benefit from it Close. But this consideration is not as much about the results as it is about the intention. It means that the person's well-being is not the primary goal(end). Conversely the goal is something other than that and the person is being used in a manner to primarily meant to attain that goal. as in, someone having consentual/free sex with another under the GUISE of loving them when they dont that would be USING someone, having an affect that only services the needs of one If the primary goal is to have sex regardless of any concern of the person, then we have a case of using a person solely as a means to an end. In the above, that seems to be true, in addition to blatantly being dishonest about it. So, in this case there are many aspects of immoral behavior. I do not understand what , objectively, ' the overall well-being of humanity being an end in itself? ' means as it seems as if well being is a pretty subjective term While what constitutes well-being may be a matter of subjective contention when and if the conversation revolves around personal preferences and what not, an objective overall state of human well-being is not really a matter of contention because it can be shown, nor is establishing whether or not we're moving towards one all that mysterious. The former would be a state of which that is good for all and good by all. The latter, moving towards an overall state of well-being, is determined by comparing the current state of humanity to past states. I would say, that overall, we are getting closer. However, there are severe faults in the current foundation. That's another thread though. I'll leave it here for now...

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Wed 01/19/11 08:05 PM
slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) Stretching the meaning of the term "slavery" to the point where it describes all kinds submissive behavior renders the term useless, because it loses all distinctive attributes which make it what it is. Terms have meaning for specific reasons.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Wed 01/19/11 08:05 PM
Sweet, it wasn't a question. So are you assuming I have never been a Christian? Which would be a wrong assumption.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Wed 01/19/11 08:09 PM
slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) Stretching the meaning of the term "slavery" to the point where it describes all kinds submissive behavior renders the term useless, because it loses all distinctive attributes which make it what it is. Terms have meaning for specific reasons. I would take it up with WEBSTERS and translaters who choose the word to describe various situations

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Wed 01/19/11 08:11 PM Edited by msharmony on Wed 01/19/11 08:16 PM
I disagree. Slavery by definition means without a choice for the slave. All bad. If there is a choice then it becomes a job even if you are only paid room and board. not so if you look up what INDENTURED SERVITUDE/ INDENTURED SLAVES were or if you check Miriam Webster or if you review a bible concordance to find out the different forms of 'slavery' which were enacted during biblical times or if you review a history source outlining SLAVERY throughout the history of mankind slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) If they willingly submit it isn't slavery. Slavery is A FORCED act on people or peoples. Now forcing can be coercion, physical force, starvation etc... But it is still forced. If they willingly submit they are working for their employer for whatever compensation is given. You can't make it right no matter how you try. Slavery is wrong wrong wrong. that is one opinion there is more than one definition of slavery , most saying nothing about force submissive is often exchanged for the term slave, because SUBMISSION is the absolute requirement of slavery,, not force Submission happens through force in slavery there is no other way for it to happen. If a person willingly submits to another human in this situation it then is not slavery anymore. this is only ONE definition, but it is not the ONLY definition .The Bible uses the Hebrew term ebed to refer to slavery; however, ebed has a much wider meaning than the English term slavery, and in several circumstances it is more accurately translated into English as servant or hired worker. 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_slavery and a person can CONSENT to be under complete submission to someone else, which would imply SLAVERY, when there is enough trust or some other aspect of personal fulfillment

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Wed 01/19/11 08:13 PM
creative wrote 'But this consideration is not as much about the results as it is about the intention. It means that the person's well-being is not the primary goal(end). Conversely the goal is something other than that and the person is being used in a manner to primarily meant to attain that goal' this would also describe many cases of 'employment' does this make employment inherently bad or are we proposing that people only go to work for the GOOD of someone other than themself, that mcdonalds workers are hoping to affect the well being of the founders and owners of mcdonalds?

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Wed 01/19/11 08:14 PM
I disagree. Slavery by definition means without a choice for the slave. All bad. If there is a choice then it becomes a job even if you are only paid room and board. not so if you look up what INDENTURED SERVITUDE/ INDENTURED SLAVES were or if you check Miriam Webster or if you review a bible concordance to find out the different forms of 'slavery' which were enacted during biblical times or if you review a history source outlining SLAVERY throughout the history of mankind slavery can be merely submission , and people do often choose to SUBMIT (to other people and other things) in return for some need of theirs being fulfilled(either emotionally or financially) If they willingly submit it isn't slavery. Slavery is A FORCED act on people or peoples. Now forcing can be coercion, physical force, starvation etc... But it is still forced. If they willingly submit they are working for their employer for whatever compensation is given. You can't make it right no matter how you try. Slavery is wrong wrong wrong. that is one opinion there is more than one definition of slavery , most saying nothing about force submissive is often exchanged for the term slave, because SUBMISSION is the absolute requirement of slavery,, not force Submission happens through force in slavery there is no other way for it to happen. If a person willingly submits to another human in this situation it then is not slavery anymore. this is only ONE definition, but it is not the ONLY definition and a person can CONSENT to be under complete submission to someone else, which would imply SLAVERY, when there is enough trust or some other aspect of personal fulfillment Once you consent it is no longer slavery. There is no way around that.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Wed 01/19/11 08:16 PM
The kind of behavior that we are discussing is not mere submission Ms. The fact that people may use that term in that way, does not mean that it fits in this context. Nor does it change the kind of behavior that we are talking about.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Wed 01/19/11 08:32 PM
The kind of behavior that we are discussing is not mere submission Ms. The fact that people may use that term in that way, does not mean that it fits in this context. Nor does it change the kind of behavior that we are talking about. the point is you are talking about ONE kind of behavior and some of us are considering ALL kinds of behavior(since the word, as posted before is a TRANSLATION of the original) I have posted several sources that define the different types of SLAVERY OTHER than the one you seem to obsess over in this debate,,, feel free to ignore it, consider it, or move on from it,,,but there is not another way for me to support what I am saying about SLAVERY not being bad IN AND OF ITSELF

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Wed 01/19/11 08:43 PM Edited by creativesoul on Wed 01/19/11 09:01 PM
creative wrote: But this consideration is not as much about the results as it is about the intention. It means that the person's well-being is not the primary goal(end). Conversely the goal is something other than that and the person is being used in a manner to primarily meant to attain that goal Msharmony: this would also describe many cases of 'employment' does this make employment inherently bad Employment does not require that one be used soley as a means to a financial end. So no, employment is not inherently immoral. or are we proposing that people only go to work for the GOOD of someone other than themself, that mcdonalds workers are hoping to affect the well being of the founders and owners of mcdonalds Do not confuse between my position and the possible position of another. I contend that when and if, both the employee and the employer, act in accordance to what I've put forth, that it wil necessarily increase the overall well being of humanity.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Wed 01/19/11 08:47 PM
Employment does not require that one be used soley as a means to a financial end. So no, employment is not inherently immoral. neither does slavery, slaves and slaveowners are not MANDATED in how they have to treat each other, just in how they are NOT permitted to

iam4u Joined Fri 10/13/06 Posts: 30096	Wed 01/19/11 09:04 PM
I just wonder,,,,can a turtle be seen as a Christian??

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Wed 01/19/11 09:31 PM
the point is you are talking about ONE kind of behavior and some of us are considering ALL kinds of behavior(since the word, as posted before is a TRANSLATION of the original) No the point is that not all of those translations fit the situation at hand. I have posted several sources that define the different types of SLAVERY OTHER than the one you seem to obsess over in this debate,,, Unless you have a way to prove that the Bible meant something other than what it says quite clearly. Then I'll go by what it says. After all this entire argument is about what is in it.

creativesoul Joined Mon 04/16/07 Posts: 9166	Wed 01/19/11 09:50 PM
neither does slavery, slaves and slaveowners are not MANDATED in how they have to treat each other, just in how they are NOT permitted to Slavery in Bible requires clearly immoral behavior and treatment of another human. That's what we're talking about.