When have I ever suggest as much?

You've been reading my posts for several years Miles. Surely by now you know that I'm no atheist.

Also, you need to be very careful of how you use the term "design".

I have no problem with the scientific observation that the universe began as a hot big bang and evolved for billions upon billions of years to become what is it today, including the life that has evolved on Earth. That entire scenario is a "design" in it's own right.

But should that send us running off to worship ancient fables of Zeus?

I think not.

But I do see why the Abrahamic religions drive people to become hardcore atheists, because to merely acknowledge the possibility of any type of spirituality only serves to feed into those religious beliefs.

As far as I'm concerned, yes, there very well may be some cosmic consciousness associated with existence. Do any of the scriptures of any of the Abrahamic religions reflect the wants and desires of that cosmic consciousness? I seriously doubt it, because what is written in those texts is simply far too petty to have anything to do with any conscious mind that could create this universe.

As you well know, I hold that if mankind has an spiritual philosophy that even comes remotely close to describing what a "God" might be like, it necessarily has to be Eastern Mysticism. Of all the spiritual thoughts that mankind has ever come up with that's really the only spiritual philosophy that "could" potentially be true.

But rest assured Miles, Eastern Mysticism contains far more justice and righteousness than the Christians will confess to. Often times they speak about it like as if there is no "responsibility" associated with it, but that my friend is a gross misunderstanding on their part. It's perfectly righteous and does not let anyone "off the hook" for anything. In fact, it doesn't even allow for quick forgiveness. You did it, you pay for it, no one else can pay for it for you. So Eastern Mysticism is truly the ultimate "justice" and the perfect "Righteousness".

So don't get excited just because I acknowledge a possible spiritual essence to reality, that's not going to help the Abrahamic picture anyway.

I know. Why do you when speaking with me about the conscienceness of a supreme being bring chr-stian theology into it?

I have said over and over that I am a Yahwist. we may read from the same book but i adhere ademently that Yahweh never ever has made a mistake.. men have..

Gen 1:1 - Heb 8:12

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with THEM ( Not the law or Yahweh but THEM), He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says Yahweh, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says Yahweh. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know Yahweh,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
NKJV


The fault was with men.. Men who took the Scriptures and turned them into Power Ruling Documents for Them to be in Power.

So Yahweh took this from them.


Very very few Yahwists do not agree on the same thing.

We still have problems but we have a guide and thats Yahshua the Word.

He was in the burning Bush. He gave the Laws.He showed them sacrafices in a way for them to understand Repentence.

His own Blood took that Priesthood back away from THEM and promiced if you try you will see.

Chr-stians do not want to see fpor they love the ways of power.

They are the ones to decide whats wrong and whats right. They spit in the Messiah's face. but most do not even relize what they do.

Here is who they still follow.

Heb 13:7-9

Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of Yahweh to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Yahshua is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
NKJV

and again

Mal 3:6-7

6 "For I am Yahweh, I do not change ;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
7 Yet from the days of your fathers
You have gone away from My ordinances
And have not kept them.
Return to Me, and I will return to you,"
Says Yahweh of hosts.
"But you said,
'In what way shall we return?'
NKJV


Yahshua was who they saw in the burning Bush coming in the name of his father Yahweh.

The Law was a shadow of things to come.. getting us ready to understand the Spiritual. It still is to those who refuse the Law they are the ones under it not I.

Gal 3:24-4:1

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster .

26 For ye are all the children of Yahweh by faith in Yahshua.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Messiah have put on Messiah.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Messiah Yahshua.

29 And if ye be Messiah's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


KJV

The seed of Abraham who it is said is as the sands of the sea the stars of the heavens.

Thats not a small amount of Children to Love. Can we even with computers count the stars of heaven?

The children go so deep in being forgiven.. but they must learn either the easy way and believe the Scriptures from beginning to end or the hard way and say the scriptures are wrong.

Is this not what is said by the masses that Yahweh made a Mistake so he sent Yahshua to correct him?

Yea you are right thats not perfection thats a lie. Just like the names the world uses .

Yet those who say they understand are in denial.

Why do you think i do not have problems with what most of you say?

It is because you do not try to hide behind a lie and say Look At Me.. II have Truth Yahweh made a Mistake. Heritics.

Worse than the unbeliever in Yahweh's eyes if they refuse to change.

Yahweh does not and has not changed. Only took the Priesthood back to himself.

I could go on and on but Yahweh could see.. He has had science prove him.
not even knowing it you help people think about what they believe.

I see one has turned to not believing the Lie but is frustrated and turns to obsene language when he writes. Now thats just bad manners and makes him look like he is not smart enough to think of another word. Thats what i was taught and believe it to be true.

no need. proves nothing and neglates your point.

Yahweh is a poets dream. Words flow like never before and will rise in you if you study his words.

Thats being the words example a follower of Justice and Shalom.

I know you need scientific explanations and you see the eastern mystics as more conforming.

its said right thier. They want Yahshua's words. what believer wants to praise buddas or vishnu or mithra or whoever elses words as part of thiers?

I will let u see what u can.

Isa 40:21-22

21 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
NKJV


Job 26:7

7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
KJV
Hangs the earth on nothing.. noone i believe still has figured this out.. why is the earth aperently sits on nothing to hold it?

Its Yahweh he tells us it is from the days of Job which is thousands of years ago.. People of belief knew more than Scholars of nothing today.

Herculese huh? Blessings Always Abra...Miles
I will leave you with just a couple verses to ponder.

People defend human life in many different ways. We build shelter to protect us from the harmful effects of the natural elements. We study many fields of science, some examples:

agronomy – so the land can produce enough so the masses can be stabilized in one location forming communal bonds, whose numbers become a defensive shield.
pharmacology – to defend against illnesses,
Physicians who specialize in various preventive and corrective applications, because healthier and stronger individuals can better defend themselves.

When it comes to Defending ourselves against other humans, we have:

Civil Laws so humans are recognized as being endowed with certain rights
Judiciary systems, law enforcers and impartial judges to make sure all our rights can be defended

Then there are those who would defend themselves against the possibility of committing offenses to their god(s). Some call such offenses “sin”.

In the Christian religion, the bible seems to make clear, that those who emerge as leaders and those who create and act in defense of the civil laws are doing God’s work, and there is no ‘sin’ in following the civil laws that serve to protect and defend the community.

If there is no sin in defending our lives through building ingenuity, medical intervention, or laws and the processes that legislate legal conformity – then that would mean, we were meant to DEFEND our lives.

With the understanding that ‘defense’ does not equate to unwarranted attack or the oppression of others then it would be contradictory not to assume that mounting a forceful and even deadly defense SHOULD be proper.

Therefore, neither individual defense using lethal weapons nor
military – Those who step forward from within the confines of communal bonds, to defend a way of life – should be considered a sin.

It seems to me, the sin would be in NOT mounting an adequate defense for the protection of self and life.

If our defense were only to be a passive one – then Christians and all such believers would have died out thousands of years ago, for who would have lived to ‘spread’ the word?




This is contradictory to a great many posts in which some people proclaim that all we have to do is ask God and he will provide.

If the world is self-governing and proceeds along a natural chain of events, then it would make more sense to believe that a Creator would ‘expect’ that all Its creations would have natural defense inclinations. This protects all species from extinction as the young and their caretakers are willing, able, and ready to use whatever force is necessary for their own protection.

So to 'judge' a person guilty of a crime or a 'sin' IS NOT OK,

But to discriminate as a matter of personal choice IS OK?

If you have a discerning eye for beauty, is that NOT a personal judgment cast?

While we don't consider certain discerning acts as potentially bad or wrong, such acts still involve some form of judgment.

Are only some kinds of judgment right (righteous)? How would anyone define when judgment is righteous?

If God created all living creatures with the great desire to live – then it must be that God intended those creatures to protect themselves – even by lethal force when necessary.

Because, according to many Christians, the body is a temple that houses the soul or spirit – and it’s the spirit that God seems to be most interested in.

If you do nothing to protect the spirit, or the spirit of those whom you love or depend on for survival, then you are not recognizing that God built the body with a brain that can “DISCERN” danger and take the appropriate action necessary to protect/defend those bodies against harm.

Likewise, it would make no sense for God to tell his followers to ‘spread the word’ without giving them the authority to protect the person or persons who are charged with that duty.

But the theif may not have a weapon and his only concern may be with the 'material' things - would killing that theif then be wrong?

Possessions are part of the person. If a thief stole all of your wealth, you and your family could starve. Also, if the person is already breaking into your house, do you want to trust to his good conscience that he won't harm anyone in the process of stealing everything not nailed down?

There is not one thing a person can do to harm my soul.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You make some very solid points here Redy.

Moreover, in the case of something like the wild west the "leaders" of a community could potentially be a single family. If that's is all that's in the area, and there is no one else to carry out "God's Laws" (which, as you point out, obviously include man's laws in a "Christian" society)

Therefore, a single "Christian family" in the wild west, would basically constitute a "Christian society" and therefore be totally within their right to defend what they believe to be the "Laws of God".

I mean, if you're going to take this religious doctrine seriously, that's what it basically amounts to.

So a Christian family would be totally within their spiritual right to kill the murderous heathens and it couldn't be considered to be a sin.

I agree. Without a doubt, if I were a Christian those guys would be dead and I would not consider that I have committed a sin by killing them in the least. On the contrary, I would having been doing the work of God.

Of course, I don't believe in that religion, so don't expect me to act on it.

But, yes, I agree with you Redy that this is how I would interpret the scriptures as well. Jesus said that he did not come to change the laws and that not one jot nor one title shall pass from law.

So I agree, it would not be a sin to kill the murders based on that Middle Eastern religion.

When it comes to Eastern Mysticism the picture changes entirely and thus the entire question and scenario becomes moot.

Yes, because we all know that there have never been any wars in the Orient.

Jesus tells us to be passive and to turn the other cheek.

What does that have to do with anything?

Yes, if someone insults you. Not if someone is murdering your family. Jesus also said you should pray, but he didn't mean to pray to the exclusion of all else until you died of starvation and dehydration. You are taking Jesus' lesson to an absurd extreme.

Well, since you and I view Jesus in completely different ways we will never agree on what he was talking about.

As far as I'm concerned he was talking about not seeking revenge as the Torah had previously taught people to do. Jesus was renouncing the ways of the Torah, because Jesus was actually teaching the wisdom of Buddhism and rejecting the violent methods in the Torah.

Yes, if you accept the entirety of Buddhism (and FOLLOW IT) you would never need to worry about having to turn the other cheek because no one would be slapping your cheeks in the first place.

Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


I do not believe he's speaking of "insults". Since he specifically says If one hits you to just turn him the other cheek. This would not be retaliating or anything of such. But just that, turning the other cheek.

Jesus renounced nothing. Jesus fulfilled the torah and gave us a new covenant between man and God. And in the new covenant God instructed us not to seek revenge, not to judge another. But to leave that all up to Jesus.

I agree Spider. Even when I was a Christian I would agree with your assessment here. All Jesus meant when he spoke about turning the other cheek was to not seek revenge. He didn't mean to not protect yourself under any circumstances. That would be absurd.

I agree.

Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Again, Jesus specifically tells us to turn the other cheek of someone physically hits us.

Jesus could not possibly have given us a new covenant between man and God. Jesus was just a mortal man. He didn't have the power to speak for any God.

I would intelligently make a choice on what was the best thing to do. I would definitely not be judge and jury on them.
I know that I would be prepared to defend myself because chances are the need will arise.

Now if it came to them entering my home well I do believe in self defense.

No it is not my or anyone elses moral obligation to rid the world of these people.

If you are god fearing, you have to believe god wants them here on this planet or they wouldn't be here.