It all boils down to what you believe Karma to mean.

Some poeple think it just means that society is for the most part self regulating, and that people who exploit, hurt, and betray end up getting justice served.

Some poeple think that there exist some kind of medium where a given set of ideas, or actions get labeled good or bad based on some set of ideals, and that when someone does something bad they get a spiritual demotion and have bad stuff coming there way as punishment, and if people do good things they earn credits either for stuff now or if they believe in an afterlife then reward/punishment in that afterlife.

These are loose and you can add all kinds of beliefs in or remove them.

The main thing that separates being spiritual from not being spiritual in these two very different set of ideas, is the border between philosophical naturalism, and magic AKA spiritualism.

If you believe in magic, afterlives, idealistic mediums of spirit juice that judges actions and changes the course of events to favor do good'ers then you are definitely spiritual.

If you do not believe (which includes those that are unsure) that such a medium exists, that objective Morales exist, or that some transcendent tally system is in place, then you are probably not spiritual. (There are a lot of ideas that would fall into the spiritual category that I will not list, thanks)


I am most certainly NOT spiritual. I am a pragmatic naturalist, and see no reason to conjure up some kind of transcendent tally system to make myself feel better that ********, murderers, and truly terrible poeple will get what is coming to them without my direct intervention.

I feel that as a do gooder, its my responsibility to makre sure these ********, murderers, and truly terrible poeple get what is coming to them NOW.

You ever watch that Telly program, "What would you do". Do you like myself wonder why so many people do nothing when clearly something most would agree is wrong is taking place . . . ?

My opinion, magic thinking is not helping. Its my opinion that most people believe in some kind of cosmic justice and use that as an excuse to just not get involved.

Personally I think believing in spiritual Karma is bad natural Karma.

It depends on what kind of 'karma' you believe in.

(a) There is a 'karma' of cause and effect, based on actual physical laws. If you jump off a cliff of a certain height onto a hard surface, you will likely break your leg. Some people consider this a kind of karma.

(b) Some people might also believe that: if they steal from someone and get stolen from a few weeks later, then a similar kind of law of cause and effect has been at work. I don't believe this, and i have seen no solid evidence of this functioning as a universal principle. This is a kind of 'cause and effect' based on imagined laws.

(c) There is a 'karma' of social pushback. If you openly violate the values of your community, your community will change how they treat you and there may be undesirable consequences for you. If you cheat on your partners, you may gain a reputation as a dishonest scumbag, and then it will be harder for you to find decent partners.

(d) There is the 'karma' of your own subconscious mind (which I believe explains some of the apparent cases of (b). If you do something that you believe is wrong, your own mind may war against itself. Out of guilt, you may cause unpleasant things to happen to yourself.





So far, I don't think a non-material worldview is necessary for someone to feel as you feel.




This is starting to sound spiritualist and non-material to me. I don't see how saying there is 'an energy exchange' makes something scientific. The fact that this model can't be verified makes it non-scientific to me.





I personally believe in a, c, and d and I don't consider any of those to be non-material.

I agree - this is not the karma of 'you do something immoral, and the universe mysteriously causes something bad to happen to you.' This is the karma of "2 years olds require caretaking - if you don't do this, bad things may happen to the 2 year old."

There is not moral judgment necessary to see the cause and effect - it is how it is.

Moe, you are touching on something that I am passionate about.

Some people take their concept of karma so far as to say that everything that happens to a person happens according to some scale, some balancing force. All actions a person takes are measure for 'morality' and 'immorality', and all events that occur in their life are measure for 'goodness' and 'badness', and these people think that 'it all balances out perfectly'.

Then they can sit back and see someone injured in a car accident and think 'oh, there is no injustice in the world. they are working out their karma. they must have done some bad things for this to happen to them.'

I think that is a horrible, inhumane, disgusting worldview to have.

The black people who toiled in fields picking cotton and tobacco were not working out their karma - they were victims of horrible inhuman choices which stemmed from despicable cultural values.

Consider rape victims. Innocent civilians blown up by landmines.

There is so much human-created evil in the world today - to think that all these people are just 'working out their karma' is to direct attention away from the preventability of these occurrences.

Thats a great one.I guess if you think about it, if you believe in Karma it does rule out all other doctrines weve grown to know.I think that Karma is something someone made up to make themselves feel better.Yet i also think they made up churches and religion to keep hold of the poor masses to accept their place in this hierarchy of earth. Anyway...

Several yeas after I had given up on the American (Western)religious ideals I began exploring the mysticism of ancient Eastern Indian philosophy/beliefs. (about 30 odd years ago).

It was quite an interesting passtime, alas, after years of following its history and tracing through its various manifestations in different parts of the world to the (then) present, to me it seemed like all the other beliefs, created by humans who desparately needed to have answers that could explain their lot in life.

At an rate, I always considered it mysticism because in its original form, it was a belief in which souls/spirits and a spiritual realm existed. So when I think of karma, I consider it a spiritual belief -although it really is more philosophy, aimed at explaining our circumstances and what power we had to control the course of cause and effect, as well as a very creative story line that explained the re-emergence of the universe according to its own karma.

So creative was some of the original myths that they lead to some very interesting philisophical perspectives about life.

Anyway - I really just wanted to make the following contribution - one of my favorite songs and it just happens to fall in with the topic at hand: If you've never heard them sing it here's a live version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiiNjog4k7k&feature=related

Indigo Girls Galileo Lyrics
Songwriters: Saliers, Emily Ann


Galileo's head was on the block
the crime was looking up the truth
as the bombshells of my daily fears explode
I try to trace them to my youth

Then you had to bring up reincarnation
over a couple of beers the other night
And now I'm serving time for mistakes made by another
in another lifetime

How long till my soul gets it right
can any human being ever reach that kind of light
I call on the resting soul of Galileo
king of night vision king of insight

I think about my fear of motion
which I never could explain
some other fool across the ocean years ago
must have crashed his little airplane

How long till my soul gets it right
can any human being ever reach that kind of light
I call on the resting soul of Galileo
king of night vision king of insight

I'm not making a joke you know me I take everything so seriously
if we wait for the time till all souls get it right
then at least I know there'll be no nuclear annihilation in my lifetime
…I'm still not right

I offer thanks to those before me that's all i've got to say
maybe you squandered big bucks in your lifetime
now I've got to pay
but then again it feels like some sort of inspiration
to let the next life off the hook
or she'll say look what i had to overcome from my last life
I think I'll write a book

How long till my soul gets it right
can any human being ever reach that kind of light
except for the resting sould of galileo
king of night vision king of insight

how long, (till my soul gets it right)
how long, (till my soul gets it right)

how lo o o n n g

I do not believe that people should not act when they see bad things happening. Not acting when action should happen could bring bad karma to the people who are apathetic.

Plus you are looking at it as if the "karma" has a judgment of some kind and that is not how I believe. I believe there is a positive and negative energy to each and every action we do, thought we have, etc... if it is positive then like in all energy there will be a return to what is sent out. Send out positive and get positive back.

Okay so in this song the writer believes that in reincarnation some random soul is the precursor to their soul and life.

I always believed in reincarnation as one soul that passes through each life in steps of learning. The same soul continues into eternity.

I don't see karma as a moral compass. I am the moral compass.

I know what is right and wrong and if I choose wrong, negative, then I am going to receive that energy back.

Karma in not an entity of judgment, it is living energy passing between all things.

i think people put too much of a "big brother aspect" into karma. kind of like its going to come back and bite you in the *** or slap a really nice reward in your lap. really you reap what you sow, yes. ( kind of the theory that like attracts like...positive energy produces more positive energy and negative energy attracts the negative. i think this is what most people mean by karma - huge neon lights flashing: beware what you put out into the universe because birds of a feather flock together) but my CURRENT definition of karma is the debts and freedoms we apply to ourselves in past and current lifetimes. its the souls expression of a completely human characteristic trait of applying rules and guidelines to everything. thus one of the many ways we limit ourselves and our potential.


and i rather liked kings knight three forms of discipline.

one of my many philosophy's is this: if we see or witness wrongdoing and do nothing to prevent it or never raise our voice against it than in essence we are just as responsible for the wrongdoing weve witnessed.
but that is my personal belief of morals and one of the things that constantly frustrates me about humanity...i dont currently believe karma is applied aside from within our own minds and the pattern we set for ourselves.

the true holy trinity lol

Discipline is another thread though. It didn't address the karma we were discussing at all.

the "equal and opposite" reaction does not apply to karma...

yes i know but i rather liked the point after the moose story and its theory relates to my definition of karma. i still havent read all of the above posts yet though i like to take my time and babble a lot

ive been really studying further into reincarnations than i ever have before lately and i find my defintion(stated above) has changed as i persue my studies further. i too believe karma is a living energy passing between all things, because all things are made up of the same energy...the great spirit,have you. because karma is the part of us we bring forward into our new lives it is this energy that comes forth with us. (when we die our energy must go somewhere changing form in all the ways you learn as a little kid in school but further multiplied into spiritual realms)karmic debt is all of the ideas and restrictions and griefs and regrets we keep bringing forth lifetime to lifetime...until we realize that the true karma of all things is that it is really easy for us to heal all those moments and cleanse ourselves of all that debt and to move forward in our paths of ascension. probably to create some new karmic debts along the way but hey thats life = )

ive come to really enjoy reading your posts. you remind me very much of my father. i find it really easy to follow your thought processes and find your pov very interesting. always a pleasure


"after following its history and tracing through its various manifestations in different parts of the world to the (then) present, to me it seemed like all the other beliefs, created by humans who desparately needed to have answers that could explain their lot in life.

At an rate, I always considered it mysticism because in its original form, it was a belief in which souls/spirits and a spiritual realm existed. So when I think of karma, I consider it a spiritual belief -although it really is more philosophy, aimed at explaining our circumstances and what power we had to control the course of cause and effect, as well as a very creative story line that explained the re-emergence of the universe according to its own karma."

this really sums up how i used to view karma fairly well.

i dont really think it matters whether it is spiritual or philosophical,whether religion or silly notion. whatever causes us to think and flex our brain muscles in this life is whats important. we all have the ability to be "our own moral compass." which really are two huge steps on each of our journeys.

if we were in a coffee shop right now speaking into the mike id be snapping my fingers off to you posters. kudos.

I see that there are different kinds and degrees of 'judgement', and I respect that you want to clarify that your model of karma does not endorse certain kinds of judgment or judgmentalism...however, I don't see how you can get away from there being some kind of judgement. Otherwise, who is to say whether the energy is positive or negative?

I like this. Its exactly consistent with 'karma is simply a word for the way our own subconscious minds reinforce our personal values'.

No not a random soul - the point is we don't remember our past lives, we arn't suppose to. So the song proceeds on that basis - some person I don't know and can't remember did something and I have to pay for it.

The ancient Eastern beliefs that included karma (like all beliefs)were similar but not exactly the same. For example, a soul/spirit has a great to learn from the physical world, so why should it be limited to only human form. In some areas, Cows are sacred, becasue a cow was considered an honorable return and in other places poeple actually feed the rats and don't even disturb them if they are found eating the food offerings left at the shrines.

Karma, not unlike Christianity, was a tool that rulers could utilize. It is how the caste sysem in India remained for valid for so long. People 'believed' thier caste was their lot in life. It meant bad karma if you didn't accept your lot in life - it was what you got for a reason and it was your job to make the best of it.

It's way late and I have a test tomorrow - there is more, a lot more but that's enough to show how karma has evolved and how differnt it is from the what our western culture has made of it.

your a great babbler..lol

i like that analogy...makes a lot of sense