Well, I don't see 'atheists trying to disprove God' in these threads, and most atheists here seem to know this can't be done. I also can't disprove the existence of his noodliness the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

What I do see is atheists (myself included) who are 'hell bent', if you will, on tearing down weak arguments for God. I can see how a theist might perceive that as 'trying to disprove' God, but to me its a very different thing.

As for why - the reasons may vary with the individual and with the argument being discusses. As I posted earlier in this thread - I see the application of critical thinking skills to be a kind of moral issue. If we don't, we become tools of evil - whether its the evil of our own rationalized desires, or the evil of a particular manipulator (politician, corporation, religious leader...).


Also, as many anti-religionists have tried to explain (perhaps confrontationally....) in other threads - many of us see religions themselves as significant causes of harm in our world. I don't see 'believing in a God' as being tied directly to 'harms caused by religion', but others do.

sorry, but punishment teaches about REAL life, about negative actions and negative consequences

adults will not be met in the real world with a 'solution' when they break laws, or a 'solution' when they dont follow the rules of their job. They suffer real and negative consequences (like jail or unemployment.) PArt of a parents job is to TEACH children, not just sit and smile with them singing kum ba ya. Life will be hard,, they need the coping skills to deal with that reality by learning what that reality is with their parents guidance.

This is a very interesting analogy. On a personal level, I might eventually become hurt and offended by all emotion/intent behind the screaming and storming - but would God?

The more giving and loving side of me might realize that it doesn't matter whether I have a relation with that child, or whether I can directly influence that child's behavior - what matters is whether the child has good relations with others, and chooses good behaviors for him/herself.

Of course the analogy breaks down in several places.

What harm comes from following God. With a society following God you would have....

1. No stealing
2. No murdering
3. No raping
4. No lieing
5. And many more sinful things in the world

And you would be left with

1. Everyone loving everyone deeply
2. Everyone helping each other out in times of need
3. Basically boils down to everyone loving everyone.

Also people that follow God are not to be discriminative as in treat none believers any different then they do anyone else. Helping someone wouldn't matter if they believed in God, a false God, or no God at all. We help ALL.

Again, how would punishment solve this probelm?

If the child is that convinced that you can't be their dad, or feels that you're behavior has been so bad that they would prefer to disown you, then why punish the child.

Perhaps it's time to look in the mirror and see if you can see the monster the child sees. Then instead of punishing the child you could EXPLAIN to the child why their view of use is MISTAKEN.

Translating this to the Biblical picture of God, then this God would need to converse with me personally and explain to me why my problems with the Bible are WRONG.

Until that happens, for this God to PUNISH ME for HIS ineptitude would be insane, thus proving my original conclusion was right on the money all along.

Trying to turn this into a "mortal-parent" scenario just won't work, because a mortal parents should be able to EXPLAIN away any MISUNDERSTANDINGS. And if they can't, then this is their own FAILINGS.

But God isn't supposed to have these kinds of human FAILINGS. So God would have NO EXCUSE for not being able to correctly EXPLAIN himself. Mortal parents can hide behind that excuse, (even though I personally feel it's a pathetic excuse even for them), but for a God to hide behind that excuse can't work at all.

You can't have a God punishing people for not believing that it was responsible for some insane bigoted book. And simultaneously claim that this same God is both infinitely wise, and benevolent. These just aren't compatible ideas.

Yes hurts God every day to have his children denying him, not listening, and so on. Is why God with be so wrathful in the end of times.

Even regardless of these things his children do to him "no listen to his word, deny him, and so on" God still loves them/us and provides for them what they need "food, water, and so on" That is true love right there i don't care who you are.

All of your post follows from your idea of God, and your idea of what God expects from you. There are many who believe in God who also believe they are called to murder in his name.

Believe in God does not, by itself, bring us closer to the utopia you describe.

If your God existed, and if you God communicated directly communicated with everyone in clear, undeniable, unambiguous, loud terms - maybe your God could bring the world closer to this utopia.

As it is (assuming your God exists), many people who think they believe in your God, and who think they are serving him - are actually serving human masters who have distorted your Gods teachings.

Edit: Saying "if He existed" and "your God" was not intended as a slight. "If" was intended as showing the conditions under which something might be true, and 'your god' was intended to emphasize that not everyone who believes in God believes in your concept of God, his teachings, his expecations of us.

Yes this is what Satan is good at...... manipulation.

God would never have anyone kill anyone, for the simple fact God tells us not to murder. And no my posts don't come from "my" idea of God. It comes from the only tool we have to understanding and knowing our great father, the holy bible.

In my experience, the more mature a person is, the less they take things personally. The more they understand themself and others, the less offense they take to things. To more they love themself, the less inclined they are to wrath under any circumstance.

If there was a God, and if that God even had human emotions at all, I don't see why people would conceive of him as having petty and spiteful tendencies.

I also don't see why people would think of a being that created all of time and space as having human-recognizable emotions.

It wasn't a trap...

I understand more than you think I do.

Cowboy, I absolutely respect and appreciate a fellow human who thinks that "God would never have us kill anyone". I see you as a believer who might be counter-acting some of the harm done by other believers - those who think its okay to kill in the name of their god.

My purpose in this most recent exchange was to answer your question about 'why some atheist [argue against the existence of God]'...so I'm stifling my inclination to debate tangential topics.

But the fact is: there are others out there, who say they accept Jesus as their Savior and who say they see the Bible as the Word of God, and who are (or appear to me to be) just as sincere as you are - who do think the bible endorses killing people under certain circumstances.

This is a key point in answering your question. If all theists truly behaved as 'good people', many of us anti-religionists might be less motivated to argue against the existence of a god. Many of us not only see 'belief in God' as factually unsubstantiated - we also see it as a contributing factor to the prevalence of evil in the world.

but all anti religionists arent good people,,,,that is part of the beauty(in my eyes) of accepting God, that we imperfect humans should have his love and be welcomed with open arms(so to speak).


religious and non religious are all just human and all will err,, because they are human,,not because they choose or dont choose religion or God.

Well, if this God wasn't so lame and playing hide-and-seek all the time then maybe he could avoid all the pain (both for him and his childern).

It's crystal clear to me that these Abrahamic religions aren't about any "God" at all. They are entirely about MEN who use and abuse religion to try to ram THEIR OPINIONS down the throats of others in the name of God.

Because remember, your entire claim that I'm rejecting God, is based entirely on the fact that I reject a BOOK!

On the contary I don't reject God at all. I have worship God everyday as the Moon Goddess, and the Sun God.

Therefore, you can't truly say that I'm rejecting "God" at all. I'm not even an atheist. Yet, you had previously demanded that I am an atheist, if I refuse to believe in the BIBLE.

So all you're doing is selling a BOOK. You're nothing more than a book salesman who has absolutely no concept or understanding of "God" at all. In fact, you probably also reject Judaism and Islam as having "Misunderstood" God, and by your interpretation of things that makes them Athesits TOO, because from what you've been spewing here, any misunderstanding is the same as rejection.

You can't seem to comprehend why this scenario can't possibly be true. That's a limitation of your ability to think clearly, no one else's



Now you're trying to evade the whole idea punishiment. But let's face it, the Biblical story demands that people be punished for their sins. In fact, that's whole basis behind the Crucifixion. Jesus supposedly took your "Punishment" for you. So it's still all about a God who feels a need to see someone punished.

So it's sill a sick story as far as I'm concerned.

Also, if there is some sort of grand reward to be had for "God's Children", and they miss out on that reward simply due to a misunderstanding. Then this God could be FAR from being fair, just, or righteous in any sense of those words.

I'm sure that you're reply will most likely be the mainstream jibberish, that the Bible is the RULE BOOK for how to obtain this PRIZE!

But once again, that rule book is extremely controversial and unclear. It's given rise to at least four MAJOR religions, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism, and all of those have a myriad of different sects and interpreations of these tales.

So the idea that ANY of their books or religions leaders hold any genuine knowledge from any supreme being is truly laughable. It's crystal clear that NONE OF THEM have a friggin clue. They are all lost sheep.

The Eastern Mystics, Wiccans, and Pagans no doubt have a far better understanding of our creator and a far closer relationship with Her.

These Abrahamic religions are a disaster, even for the people who participate in them.

And, correspondingly, if all atheists demonstrated extremely high standards of moral conducts, the some religionists might be less concerned about what people believe.

What is your point, exactly? I have the impression that you are making a counter-argument of some sort, but I don't see one.

Maybe this is a continuation of previous conversations you've had on here, with me and with others. In the past, you didn't seem to be willing to admit that religiousity directly contributes to the propagation of evil in our world.




I disagree. People who reject religion and also reject moral teachings might exhibit immoral behavior because they rejected both religion and the moral teachings of religion. People who accept religion and have embraced teachings that lead to immoral behavior might exhibit immoral behavior because they have embraced those teachings.

Examples? I know some agnostic anarchists who think its just perfectly fine to steal. Their ideological identification influences their behavior. I have seriously known some Christians who think (or so they say) that its okay to imprison and punish people for 'being gay'.

Systemized ethics influences the ethical behavior of the people who identify with the ideology/religion.

the ten commandments are clear to me,,,I do not believe God cares nearly as much about 'misunderstandings' as purposeful defiance and disrespect,,,, and my life has not been a disaster

Truly, and I'm certainly not going to join up with religous people who are peaching bigotry agains same-gender love, or who are using religion to denounce the scientific observation and evidence for evolution, etc.

I see these religions as often being highly hypocrytical and bigoted.

Like Mahatma Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, it's your Christians I don't think very highly of".

I'm completely convinced that if the man named Jesus that had been described in the Bible actually did exist and hold the views the gospels attribute to him, then he most certainly wouldn't condone or support the religion that pretends to "follow" him.

They don't follow him at all. On the contrary, they use and abuse him to spread bigotry and ignorance in HIS NAME. Christianity is the most shameful religion ever devised by mankind IMHO. It makes a mockery of the very man it's supposedly designed to worship.

If you want to become the Anti-Christ, just support Christianity.

That's my feelings, as I'm sure everyone is well-aware of by now.

Had to take a moment to let you know that wins.

What is your point, exactly? I have the impression that you are making a counter-argument of some sort, but I don't see one.

my point was,,why do the religious have to be held to a standard of 'perfect' goodness( that is to say EVERY ONE of them must be doing good at all times),,,,that is not a standard attainable by most humans regardless of their faiths and beliefs

and you are making my point actually,,,when u post 'if all atheists demonstrated extremely high standards of moral conducts, the some religionists might be less concerned about what people believe.

in fact, SOME religious arent really concerned with what people believe,,,,,(myself included), other than as a topic for discussion or debate



the opposition to faith because it is 'organized' still holds little validity for me,, if I share beliefs with a large number of people with whom I wish to associate and encourage and support, so what?

if people within those groups,, nitpick away to find things to support 'bad' behavior or ideals,,,,those people are certainly in the MINORITY where my religion is concerned and although I feel it is sad they choose that type of existence, I do not feel that I or anyone else in the group is responsible for or capable of making some 'borg' type situation where everyone in the group does the EXACT same things or lives the EXACT same ways

the individual characters of others will impact what they choose to absorb and how they use it,,, it comes from the individual and not the tool or resource of their choice

The ten commandments are an extremely small part of the whole religion. Other than the first four (which are basically just saying "WORSHIP ME! WORSHIP ME!") most religions, and even atheists, will most likely agree with most of the rest because they're just common sense.

Although, things like "Honor thy mother and father" may well depend on precisely how honorable a person's parents actually are. Some of those commandments are a bit presumputious about certain things (like the presumption that you have parents who are worthy of honoring to begin with). Some childern don't! Some childern are born to some pretty sick and demented people.

So even the Ten Commandments don't make good sense in ALL cases. Everything is relative. Maybe we should be worshiping Einstein.