The above are all very noble ideas. Here is the reality. Use the
current sources till they are all used up, then stumble around in the
dark looking for a new energy source while congress covers their
collective asses for not developing an effective energy plan in the last
50 years. Maybe there will be enough illegal immigrants in the
country by then that we can all hire several of them to carry us around
in sedan chairs.

watts wrong with walkin on ya own to feet thats watt ya got em for or
has everyone forgotten how to do that

Its coming, but it looks like this great country of ours will be left
catching up. Unless the energy plan at the start of this thread become
reality. Funny thing is, that plan is proposed by a current Presidential
candidate!!!

Heres another Hydrogen Car that will be on the market soon!!

Honda is proud to introduce the newest Honda fuel-cell car, the FCX
Concept, a precursor to the production car coming in 2008. This amazing
vehicle drives completely clean—emitting nothing into the air but water
vapor. And the energy source for this next-generation automobile
is…hydrogen. A clean, domestic fuel that significantly cuts carbon
emissions. Yet unlike early fuel-cell prototypes, the FCX Concept
features a well-equipped, full-sized cabin, complete with the latest
amenities. There will be lots more to learn about fuel-cell technology
in the near future as the new FCX Concept evolves into a production
vehicle. Because the future is closer than you think.

What a kick in the radical Muslims ass it would be if we didnt need
their fuel. Then they would struggle to buy even 1 gun...

A link to this
car----http://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/?ModelStart=fcx&ef_id=1097:3:8980b74d0279e8e3a87af090357337cd_820987842:9DKAwUGvMUMAAHJ9lyYAAAAI:20070526162445

We need something different. Fuel cell vehicles can only be a stop gap.

CO2 is not the biggest problem with the greenhouse effect (less the 800
Thousandths the damage potential of water vapor).

If you produce more water vapor you will cause more damage to our
planatary heating and cooling cycles than you cause with CO2. People
are so shortsighted. Here you go... Fix a blown fuse by replacing it
with Aluminum Foil he he he blow the fusible links and have to scrap the
whole system.

OK, adventure this has all been an idea I conqured up to get people to
look at a certain candidates ideas. They may not be perfect, but I think
they sound pretty good. (better than most)
Here is his complete platform on energy.


Cut oil demand: 50% by 2020
We must reduce oil imports from around 65% to 10%. We can reach these
goals in part by getting the 100 mile per gallon (mpg) car into the
marketplace, push fuel economy standards to 50 mpg by 2020, and set a
life-cycle low-carbon fuel standard that reduces the carbon impact of
our liquid fuels by 30% by 2020, including increasing use of alternative
fuels.
Change to Renewable Sources for Electricity: 50% by 2040
I am calling for a national renewable electricity source portfolio
standard of 30% by 2020 – which will rise to 50% by 2040. This is
aggressive, but necessary as we start using more electricity for
automobiles. I will push for an energy productivity law requiring a 20%
improvement in energy productivity by 2020. We could easily save
customers $21 billion a year by 2020. Also, my market-based cap and
trade program for greenhouse gas emissions will create incentives for
the electric and industrial sectors to make significant reductions in
their carbon emissions.
Dramatically reduce greenhouse gas emissions: 80% by 2040
20% by 2020, and 80% by 2040 -- ten years faster than scientists say is
necessary because we must lead the world, and we can’t afford the
possibility of backsliding and inaction. We will start with a
market-based cap and trade system. Economists say the world can protect
itself from drastic climate change at a cost of 1-3% of our economic
activity. We can afford to protect the climate. Given the risks of
catastrophic climate change, we can’t afford not to do it.
Lead by example and restore America as the world’s leader
We must return to the international negotiating table and support
mandatory world-wide limits on global warming pollution. We will work
closely with fast-growing nations and, as President, I will cooperate
with the European Union, the World Bank, and other allies to help
finance the small incremental cost of “doing it right.” I will create a
North American Energy Council with Mexico and Canada, which supply about
20% of our oil, and make sure our relations with these neighbors are
firm and friendly. As we reduce our demand for foreign oil, we should
work with the Gulf nations, and our partners at the UN, to create a
multilateral system for protecting the Gulf so that within ten years the
U.S. presence in the Gulf could be sharply and safely reduced.
Get it all done without breaking the bank
We will raise some revenue from the sales of carbon permits, for
example. Further, I will get out the “green scissors” to cut back on
wrongly-placed tax subsidies. Over time, this program will yield huge
productivity increases in our economy, as well as significant budget
savings and revenues. We will create more than ten times as much value
in the American economy, by reducing our oil imports, as we spend to
make this program happen.

Its strange to see a politician from the US to actually look at the
future isnt it?

His name is Bill Richardson!!!!

Something for your grandchildren, Aye!!

What if he was President kariZman?

Would you think better of America then???
He also wants to legalize medical Marijuana, and his Foreign Policy
record is very good!!!

No, Kari hates anything to do with the US. AB, I was wondering when that
point would come up. My question is twofold:
1. Just how much water vapor will there be from the exhaust?
2. Clouds form as a result of water vapor attaching to dust particles in
the atmosphere. Clouds cause the air to cool by shielding it from some
of the sun's heat.
Your thoughts?

What do you think Zap? Does it sound like a good plan?

Yup, I like it but I think AB has a point worth looking into.

Clouds block ultra violet from the sun at upper levels and cloud
formation also relies on incoming cosmic radiation.

Water vapor hangs in a bit of a different balance however. It reflects
the energy from the earth back to the earth at lower levels in the
atmosphere. Not all water vapor goes into the clouds. The atomosphere
can only contain so much water vapor (it becomes saturated much like
making sugar candy). In order to contain more vapor the tempreture must
increase. The more water vapor you get the more heat is reflected back
to the earth resulting in an net increase in mean average tempreture of
the earth. This in turn will melt ice flows and glaciers which will
result in more water vapor. At some point it becomes a geometrical
upward sprial.

okay so a band-aid at this point is better than the current path. Again,
for the record, I don't buy into the religeon of global warming but I do
feel that we need to take care of our environment so if it benefits YOUR
mother, the Earth, then I'm all for it.

Please pardon the typo's as I am trying to work between posts.

But you have to combine the increased water vapor with the reduction in
greenhouse gases. In all, and Richardson's plan includes scientific
advice, it would decrease the overall greenhouse effect! Also, as
karziman mentioned the hydrogen could be produce by using waste water,
which would help to decrease water pollution.
You also must remember he is talking about a National effort to equal
the Space Race and Kennedy's plan to be the first to reach the moon. All
our best scientist working together. The jobs created in the private
sector alone would be astronomical!
All in All, I think it is an excellent plan..

Fanta do some research into greenhouse gasses. The largest most
prevelant greenhouse gas is WATER VAPOR. It has the greatest effect.
More than 800 times the effect of CO2.

Global warming is much more than a manmade problem. We contribute but
so does the sun, volcanos, animal farts, other planets gravitational
influences, metorites, radiation from stars other than our sun, weather
patterns (which in our stupidity we have altered), coastal errosion,
earthquakes, forest fires, geothermal vents, (get the picture).

OK, so if that is the case, and I do not doubt your knowledge on that
subject.
What do we have to lose, his plan addresses, with scientific
collaboration, the issue of reducing greenhouse gases from several
sides, and by employing Scientist, and making it a National effort.
Not just one approach to the problem, and he isn't saying it can be done
easily or overnight.
Its Action based too, that's far better than the rhetoric and inaction
that Ive seen in my lifetime!!
Also, think of the National pride, and moral it will produce if we are
all working together, instead of arguing all the time.

mm - I'm with Barbie. How many will be left behind if laws do not allow
those who can not afford it to maintain their old vehicles?

Anyway as far as incumbent issues. If smoking is the largest cause of
cancer and other disorders of smokers AND non-smokers, why aren't any
incumbents trying to get tobacco ruled illegal?

You will accept them forcing those who can barely afford an old jalopy
to loose thier only source of necessary transportation, but you do not
expect an incumbent to make tobacco producst in this country illegal?

The Government makes to much money off tobacco to ever make it illegal.

I do not HATE Americans.fuell cells are not needed they are inefficiant
and costly to produce feul cells were around before the automobile. it
is stupid .water does not have to be released into the atmosphere it can
be passed through a condenser tank and reused and reused and reused
round and round it goes and when it stops no one knows.its so simple.
the corporate autocrats hate doing it right if there is no money in it
for them.its all about fuken money the people with the money in this
world are criminals .watts the space race about they can use hydrogen
for that futile exersize.we have been baffeled with bullshiitt for the
sake of a dollar.HYDROGEN is the answer.

Ok, I read on effects of water vapor as a greenhouse gas. While making
up the majority 36%-70%, water vapor stays close to the surface and
through natural evaporation and condensation only has a lifespan of 2 or
3 days.
The other greenhouse gases CO2, Methane, Nitrous oxide, CFC-12, HCFC-22,
Tetrafluoromethane, and Sulfur hexafluoride stay in the upper reaches of
the atmosphere and have a lifespan of anywhere from 12 yrs.-for Methane,
200-400yrs. for CO2 to 50,000 yrs for Tetrafluoromethane.

Quite a big difference and as far as I can discern far worse and longer
greenhouse effects..