Trubeliever - Thank you for being brave enough to respond to my post. I hope you can read my reply with an open mind and that it might make you think just a little more. I really don’t believe any religious belief is meant to deny a person the right OR the responsibility of thinking for themselves.


So for you life begins in the womb, what about the womb of other mammals do they yield a life less valuable than any other life? What about egg laying creatures? Is their life so worthless that even in extinction we would not miss EATING their EGGS? Is that not killing?


So taking the life of any non-human being is not killing not murder – otherwise the commandment “Thou shall not murder” would make no sense because murder only applies to humans – is that correct? But what about all those Bibles that interpret the commandment as “Thou shall not kill?” Or what about the older form of the commandment which is actually interpreted as “don’t kill unjustly”? But what is unjust? And how do you know that this commant only applies to humans? How does that statement reflect on war, in what way are we defending ourselves “justly” in the middle east?
Getting back to animals - If they are here only as a means to human ends, how would it be possible to destroy the environment? Yet we are destroying the environment and ourselves with it. If the only balance required to maintain the echosystem is that humans must exist, why do we even need other life forms? Why would God even have created them?



To kill is not the same as murder – is it? Because apparently you can kill in self-defense and it is not murder. Now suppose the child with the hand grenade has small pox or plague and as he’s coming toward you with arms open wide for comfort – would you then murder the innocent child in self-defense – fearing that you and those you love would contract small pox or plague?

Or would you open your arms and comfort the child and put your faith in God?
What is the difference between the hand grenade (which may be a dud) or the disease which may be real?



No book can do your thinking for you. No commandment is an all inclusive prime directive because there is not enough information in that command for it to stand as the last word in every situation.

In fact if the Bible is a guide and the stories and parables in it are purposely created to make you think – are you doing yourself (whom you love so dearly) or your God (whom you would not trust for the sake of a crying child) an injustice by not using that which you have been given – a brain?

Miles - Shalom


Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

So when you read this in the Bible do you understand it to mean that life pre-exists conception and that only the body is formed in the womb? That was the original stance of the Catholic church which is why birth control of any type was forbidden. What do you think Miles?

If we indeed pre-exist it must be in spirit then what did God create when he created man in the flesh – simply flesh? For if the spirit pre-existed the body then it is not the body and destroying the body does not kill the spirit – so what is murder?




A most excellent perception – because the fact is that legal or not women will have abortions. The real issue should not be about the government ruling what a person can or can’t do with their own body. The real issue should be about preventing unwanted pregnancies and about understanding that even in the best of circumstances an accident, or a mistake, may lead to a choice we all don’t approve of – but that the choice is not up to the government is the most important issue.

Keeping abortion a choice only means we have to work harder to educate people better.
Even the in the bible, the Law of Moses ‘authorizes’ abortions when a married woman is impregnated by a man other than her husband? So in at least some cases abortion is approved of by God. Why is that?



Both china and India have practiced this – why? Because male children are superior to girls. They are not “given” away in marriage but add to the security of the elderly by “taking” a wife who will help care for parents in their old age.

In China there is the added burden of the law which allowed only 1 child – eventually two to be born to a couple.

Is that what happens when we give our choices, our human rights, away to the government.

In a movie called "True Lies" where Arnold Schwarzenegger starred with Jamie Lee Curtis I remember a line that made me laugh. When she found out her husband was a spy, she asked him if he had ever killed anyone.

He said, "Yeh, but they were all bad."

Also, in a John Wayne movie, I think he once said,

"I never killed anyone that didn't have it coming."

For me, murder is done with vengeance and intent for personal reasons.

Killing is without malice, like self defense, war, survival etc.

Very good thought out reasoning Red.

The Jeremiah reference i did not think about. I just posted it.

Thanks for bringing that up.

Something I will have to study and see what the flow of the Hebrew is.

Different ways of wording brings different meanings.

Really the English language does the same thing. But u have me curious now. Thanks Red....Blessings of Shalom...Miles

I just wanted to say Red as this is a good example we can all learn from each other if we are willing to truthfully look at anything. Won't always agree but something will pop up now annd then.

To me the churches of today are just like the Religious Elite the Pharasees in Yahshua's time.

They both have to always be right reason or not.


I would of loved to see thier faces when Yahshua said that He had not seen such faith in all of Isreal and he was talking about a Pagan Roman soldier.

What a slap in the face to them just made them more dogmatic.


Like Solomon the Preacher said Nothing new under the sun.. Blessings...Miles

Thanks Miles for considering my questions worthy of researching. As alwasy it will be a pleasure to see your responce.

You are right, we can all learn more about each other and we can still disagree, but I've learned in the last year that its easier to disagree when we know that on some things we can agree and on the rest we may just have to find solutions with more creative effort.

Shalom

For me its about the law. The law is easy to abuse. It goes both ways on issues of rights. If you remove rights for one reason, it may very well empower another reason later on.

Reproductive rights = being able as an individual to determine how, when, where, and why you reproduce.

If we start giving the government any part of these rights, then we have essentially narrowed the scope of human rights.

As soon as that starts to erode . . . .