I never said Christians came up with it "first". Stop assuming. :)



Hmm. To an extent, this would be impossible, if indeed Jesus is the Messiah. According to Rabbinic tradition, one can't start teaching until the age of 30. It's at this age when one takes over His father's job or is allowed the higher calling of Rabbi.

People who tend to quote "missing years" simply don't understand the context of Jesus or His calling.

Context like:
- Jesus came for the JEWS............................. JEWS. JEWS. JEWS. JEWS. JEWS. And just in case you don't realize this, 99% of the people Jesus talked to was a Jew. And the 1 person (that I can think of) that He talked to, who was a gentile, He almost spoke in a racist manner.
- According to tradition and fulfilling prophesy, Jesus didn't start His ministry until the age of 30.
- The entire idea of Jesus being man, is that He lived everyday life. Did the things we didn't do. Lived normal everyday life, without sin. Lived under parents. Worked a job. Etc.
- And others, but I'm not 100% polished on all of this. :/



- Different Idealogy? I'd disagree strongly here. Many things Jesus taught was illuminating OT scriptures. Like for example when He was 'tempted by the Devil' for 40 days. In all three responses of Jesus, He quotes OT scripture. And numerous times throughout dialogues with the Jewish leaders, Jesus uses OT scripture to show how the Religious leaders got it wrong.

- Constantine had nothing to do with Jesus' death. ;) It was Pilate. Other documents back that up. ;)



- Lol. Jesus came to the Jews. OT stands for "Old Testament" or "Old Covenant" or in more clear english "Old Contract". The Old Contract between man and God. Jesus fulfilled the Old Contract, to bring the New Contract, where through Him (Jesus) all men can communicate with God.

Also, about the "losing members", I doubt you'll have even 1 source to cite for this. This is hearsay. More like someone's opinion.



Huh? "With this being said they wrote exactly the opposite of what Jesus was teaching"

Quote a source on this. Don't ask me to look it up. I couldn't find my source on the Buddhist thing, so I dropped it.

Also, about the rapist. That's in the book of Leviticus, 4th book of the OT, not NT. So...Smile, I would REALLY urge you to read the bible yourself because your obviously throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

-Also, on the "strange" laws. I haven't verified all of them but many of them made sense in context of the culture/time they lived in. Like, if they obeyed the laws, it meant life to the individual and the community as a whole, but if they disobeyed, it meant death and infection to the individual and community. Now, this isn't "all" laws but a large amount of them.



I'll be honest here. This one is difficult for me to iron out. (The scripture that says it.) Like I've read the background on it and different views and I don't see how someone can say "it doesn't say women can't preach" because it almost literally does. It's a difficult Scripture that I'm honestly still confused about. :/



Props to you! :) That's good work you've done!



Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. My mother was raped but I didn't see it, did it still happen? Um..YES IT DID. So, please stop limiting everything.

Also, about the Communism thing. I totally agree. Smile, just so you know about me. My belief system is very rouge. I try to be as open as possible and be as objective as I possibly can before I come to any conclusion.

I know very little about Communism but I do know over 100 stories of Chinese Christians being brutally assaulted, for promoting Jesus. And that the Christian churches within the country are regulated by the government.



Then Buddhism is very VERY VERY evil (I'm basing this off of your quote above). Buddhism says "I know nothing". It's a very humble stance of the Buddha but it's one of his teachings. ;) I'd like to think WE DO KNOW somethings but not in full.



Again, I think your only looking at the bad... You can't have good without bad. You can't have bad without good. Christianity has done A LOT of good. I think you should throw down your preconceived notions and look at the other side, just for 1-3 months. You'll be amazed at what you'll find.



I think this closed mind is something I'm trying to persuade against. I'm very open to Jesus not being God. But my experience and knowledge goes against it. I've read the Jesus seminars in the 90's. I've looked into other religions and I'm still into looking into more of it.



I never said this. Do I deny this? Hmm... It depends. I think Christianity should never be governmental law, unless it's 3 major laws, love God, love others, love fellow Christians. But even then, it's still missing the point. Jesus wants genuine worship, so, Christians who pursue 'Christian laws in government' are sinning as the Pharisees did in Jesus' time.

So, if asked "Should Christian law be in government" my answer is NO.

If asked "Should an individual worship only jesus" my answer is YES because logically it's fool proof. Most religions say "be good" Christianity says "trust in Jesus and try to imitate Him". I think you cover all your bases with being a follower of Christ (not of Christendom).



I believe Jesus (God and man) would be disappointed. So, I agree. :) (I know you don't believe Jesus=God but I do, so, I thought I'd just throw you a curve ball. :P )



You might've read them too fast where you ddin't retain much. Because you obviously got the NT and the OT mixed up. (you said the apostles endorsed rape, when it was in the Torah/Leviticus.)



I think this is where si strongly differ. I read people who come to different conclusions. I read BOTH sides, not just one. I think you should listen to some preaching. Ignore the extremists (because it seems like this might be too much for now) but listen to the other side.



Again, your methods of testing Christianity is based on it's followers and not it's teachings. Therefore, I disagree with your assessment. As I've said numerous times before. YOUR LOOKING ONLY AT ONE SIDE, the opposing side, the side that says Christianity is totally evil. Christianity has contributed (in both positive and negative) more to humanity THAN ANY RELIGION/organization/group of people.



I have. :) I'm part native-american. There are some people that they had some Jewish/Christian influence (in thought, not by "White men"). For example, some chants say "Yahhhh-wehhh" which is "Yah-weh", the Jewish name of God (YHWH; hebrew has no vowels).



Christianity is nothing without the cross. As Paul said, "If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we are of ALL people the most to be shamed."



I probably know more than you . ;) Unless your 50. Much of the OT is extremely similar to Babylon and Egypt's teachings. I know a lot but there is always more information to learn. It's like a never ending well.... NEVER ENDING. How can we sleep? :P (Stuff like this [never ending] makes me want to pull my hair out.)

Yes I am quiet sure a 21 year old such as yourself knows more about the subject in hand. I guess I would have to be 50 (like you mention) in which I am 9 years off to have such tremendous knowledge as yourself on the subject of religion or christianity in whole. Chuckling here

What is going on is there are two different views. If you feel comfortable believing Jesus is God and your savior and that the bible is peaceful and has morales to teach then so be it. No one is taking that away from you, yet you will see many who will disagree with your views as I clearly do here. I don't have a religion to represent anyway and I am very comfortable with it. Each individual is different for me and I don't go by a book to tell me who I should accept or not because of a rule or idealogy a book gives or what a pastor deems is correct.

I live a very good life and have started helping people around the world at your age as a humantarian and have participated in many traditions and cultures, which allowed me to experience different idealogies. I had first hand experience including the studies from books to go with it concerning religions and spiritual practices. I had to learn this so I wouldn't offend a culture when helping them. It was part of my job.

I have also learned that many people especially in America claim to know so much about other cultures without even travelling to them first to see if it is true. They simply read something on the internet, newspaper, or press and claim it is the truth. Go to China and then come back and talk to me about what they do and don't do or what they are allowed to do or not. Perhaps then we can have a logical conversation about religion concerning this nation.

With over 15 years as a Red Cross worker and have travelled to over 30 countries in my life looking at various idealogies, spiritual practices, and religions I come to the conclusion that Christianity is not the most peaceful religion one can study. Yes Buddhism is far more peaceful and logical. It is also a much older philosophy then Christianity with the least amount of atrocities to go with it. Perhaps you should study eastern philosophy more yourself.

I have seen both views from others defending christianity and dissaproving its practice. I have read the bible numerous times full of contradictions and even had lengthy conversations with various people in hand. It is simply that you see a different view on it. If you want to believe Jesus died on a cross for the sake of mankind then so be it. I don't want to believe that and never will.

Concerning native indians: I visit a reservation on weekends to meet up with a 96 year old chief who told me stories on what christians did to his people. Stories you don't want to hear and probably will not agree with him on even though he was there when they happened when he was a child at the time. Also many of the americans I meet always claim they have somekind of native blood in them. Most of the time it isn't true. Native Indians were forced to convert rather they wanted to or not. They were seen as savages and had a chance to fix that by converting. Christians always believe they are civilizing other cultures when they give them a chance to convert. The missionaries are no different when they visit poor countries especially India and Africa at the moment. Too bad they just don't accept different lifestyles, practices, and idealogies.

In the end what I can agree with you on is that you are a strong believer in the christian faith and claim that it is a rightuous path. I on the other hand don't agree with its teachings or morales including the Torah or the Koran. I will always point out my reasons when confronted.

Concerning the history of what happened to Jesus I would say for you to keep a open mind. Afterall no one knows for sure what really happened in his lifetime unless you want to literally take the words out of the bible as factual. If so then good luck with that. You will probably find many who will follow along with you here in America without even questioning the book.

As a note you misunderstand my last post or you chose to twist it. Yes Jesus did come back to the Jews to teach a different idealogy of how to live amongst each other in peace. Like I said Constantine and Pilate both agreed on nailing him on the cross. They were both threatened by his popularity let alone his idealogies. That is what I was saying all along. Go back and reread it again and you will see that. It was a collaboration between the Roman government and the Jews who believed in the old testament to send him to death.

The Jews that followed the old testament used this event to create the new testament by using Jesus as a sacrificial lamb to help revive their order.

Many will agree that religion was a way to keep order amongst the people and many will agree that people in those days never dared to question such laws and rules. Why? Because it could cost them their life.

Jesus in this perspective was very brave in what he did. He knew he might have to pay a price for it. What price did he pay? Well his life of course. He showed people that stoning children, doing sacrifices, or giving such brutal punishments wasn't necessary to keep order. He showed that one can live in peace with one another and solve problems without violence. He was changing the way of thinking that many people enjoyed. He was seen as a humantarian. Someone that I can look up to for I too was a humanatarian for almost half of my life. His idealogies are misrepresented in the bible. So take what you like with it. Either see it as false or see it as the truth. Your choice.

Good luck on your search for the truth on this time of history. I hope you will find it. If not then you are not much better off then most of us here. It is something that can be discussed until we turn blue.

One thing I know for sure is that everyone has a different understanding of this religion and how they feel about it.

Fortunately we can now give our opinions about this religion as of others without being persecuted, tortured, or tossed away as a heretic. We are still called heathens or infidels, but it doesn't really matter anymore. It is just words and nothing more. I for one know who is being unreasonable in the end.

I'll tell ya, I don't envy any young person today that questions religion and christianity especially. I don't long to be that naive ever again. Thanks smiless, you always remind me that questioning isn't just good, it's nessessary.

Anytime I want to get a chuckle I grab a bag of popcorn and read the posts of the Aethist who try to make the bible verses different from what they really are.



There is a reason the bible is the most published book in the history of the world people.

Colonialism by the European? You know that there are a lot of sheeps in the world?

As the thread shows in the beginning one can see how the bible became popular.

Prostelyzing, forcing conversion, taking away children from their parents rather they want to or not and putting them in christian schools, fear tactics such as one will go to hell if one doesn't convert, knocking on doors in the early or late hours trying to convince to join a church session, tv advertisement, and so forth is how the bible got popular.

I don't see buddhists or hindus forcing anyone to become one of their members. I don't see Wiccas forcing anyone to become a Wiccan. I also don't see a atheist or agnostic believer either telling others in what one SHOULD believe in. I must add that atheists are nonprofit organizations. I wouldn't say Christians are nonprofit. For thousands of years they have earned more money then anyone can imagine and alot of it doesn't even go to the poor like people want to believe.

So bible thumpers yes keep stuffing yourself with popcorn. I think that is probably what you can only do best anyway.

stop it with the mega long posts i aint readin them far too lazy

Sad thing is Jesus never said "the pastor will teach you", yet many Christians blindly follow pastors instead of challenging them on their opinions.

So, I sigh with your statement. :/



Actually, I'd love to one day go to China. But as I said before, traveling to a country is a HUGE place and no one has any idea what's happening around the corner. I doubt going to a place will radically change our conversation (except we'd have more common ground of "oh, you went to that coffee shop, or that sweat shop, or that store, etc.")



Smile...I don't want to repeat myself for the 3rd or 4th time. But I will (one last time) because it doesn't seem like your listening to this particular point. Just because one has a peaceful history and the other has a chaotic history, doesn't mean ANYTHING about the religion itself. It just shows what the followers do.

I don't think your "test" is a valid test of religions. I think one should look at the leader Himself and go from there. My view is "Christianity is true but ever since the government (Rome; circa 350) got involved it went downhill for thousands of years."



OMG, Smile. Are you serious? Are you really going to generalize me, as other Christians? WTF, Smile, WTF. Don't act like I hide my face from what evil "Christians" have done. I know what they've done. They have done some wicked ****. Don't act like I would acknowledge it.

Stop pre-judging me and just listen to what I'm saying. That quote was offensive and shows how you don't want to dialogue and just want to vent.

I think it's great you meet on the weekends with Native Indians.



I'm glad you said "keep" but I encourage you to HAVE an open mind. Cause your obviously closed to the idea that I could be right.

"unless you want to literally take the words out of the bible as factual"
- It is a document. It's valid as any other. I've stated my stance on this before. Maybe you just didn't listen to it, which is fine, but it's saddening because I thought we were going to talk about it.


No twist. I take your statements/posts as face value and reply to them line by line. So, I'd say I might've misunderstood. But you made it sound like it was mainly the Romans who killed Jesus. I think the Passion of the Christ is a good depiction of "how" He was killed. Jews urged the Roman government.


You say different, but Christ would've said the same. Everything Christ taught was in the OT but the religious leaders decided to twist things into a hateful society, when the OT was about love. Christ fulfilled the law, He was the embodiment of it.



You almost contradict yourself here. Most of the apostles died in teaching what Christ taught, up until circa 350. The Romans made a spectacle of Christians. Lions eating the flesh of Christians, etc.



Again, you almost contradict yourself again. (Almost....) You say it's "misrepresented", yet you have no source behind this "misrepresentation". You base your view of Jesus on bits and pieces of Scripture (or documents that are 300 AD +), yet you have no solid foundation for your belief.

Other than you say "Jesus was just a good humanitarian man." This is called circular reasoning. You believe something because you believe it. People can believe what they want, but it doesn't mean it's true, at the end of the day.

Is it possible for Jesus to be "just man"? No. Then based on the NT, He was a lunatic, not a humanitarian. A man claiming to be God in the flesh is pretty nuts... this is why He died. Jesus was killed by the Jews because Jesus claimed to be God. Without this, the Jews wouldn't have had Him killed.

Could Jesus have went to India? Well, if He was really called to the Jews and into submission of His parents, then no because He was working with His father as a carpenter's apprentice. (FYI, back then, you wouldn't "ask your dad/mom" for anything, it was more of a slave relationship.)

If Jesus was a lunatic, then sure. He could go to India, but then He wasn't called to the Jews and shouldn't have died.

I'd encourage you to read Case for Christ.



Again, Smile, I need to repeat myself. This is AFTER 350 AD. All of your citation is AFTER 350 AD.

Let's look closer into 35 AD till 350 AD: Emperor's (like a hand full of them, like a new one every few years) then Emperor Nero then Domitian then Trajan then Hadrian then Septimius Severus then Decius then Diocletian. A nice link is http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/chronindex.htm

I'd encourage you to read that. This is what led up to the decision of Constantine.

Side note: I've chosen Christianity among other because of the Leader. There is little evidence to say He wasn't who He said He was (God). Although many of the followers are stupid and serve themselves in the name of this Leader. It doesn't mean the Leader is bad, it just means we live in a world that is flawed and corrupt. I don't follow the followers, I follow Christ. Some followers need a NCIS head slap.

Well what it is worth you will always see people defending the bible and its morales and others who will call it nothing more then a fairy tale story. In the end one can decide what is best for them. I don't think one could have done that a thousand years ago. Either you become or you die. I am glad I didn't exist in those times to tell you the truth.

Having visited many countries I always hear the same stories from people of how christian missionaries throw in their bible versus warning that one should convert if they want to make it to a heaven. Some actually do fall for such words these people give. Fortunately many don't as they do ask questions about the credibility of the words the bible offers. When they don't receive logical answers they don't convert. Of course the christians will say go read the bible again or you don't understand the meaning of what is written as the typical answer.

The fact is that christianity has a tainted history and its followers did atrocities by using the bible to justify their actions. Who would want to follow such a religion with such a tainted past is beyond my comprehension? I certainly wouldn't that is for sure. I can think of far more peaceful spiritual practices that had commited far less atrocties in general. It is only common logic to follow a spiritual path that actually shows peaceful coexistence and solutions without the resort to violence. I mean one doesn't even have to join a religion or believe in anykind of spiritual belief system to lead a good life and be a good example to others to tell you the truth. I am living proof of this actually.

Maybe I am over sensitive about the subject, but my prior experience as a red cross worker has shown me more poverty and violence to shed 3 lifetimes to come to this conclusion. So yes people are nasty little creatures aren't they, but those who follow such religions that enforce such atrocities are the worst.

Yes it is necessary to (ask questions) and it is fortunate that we are allowed to think for ourselves of what we deem is good for our happiness.

Actually I have gotten carried away with my replies. I am just saddened on how religions manipulate people in doing bad things. It would be nice that religions would enforce those golden rules many agree with around the world. For example: Don't do that what you don't want done to you. Unfortunately this doesn't happen and we watch mega religion organizations and structures created for money and power only. They are so influential that they intergrate into our politics and schools manipulating anybody to believe in something without researching or even studying it first to see if it is something a individual would like to follow.

Yes I mentioned that Constantine was around at the time of Jesus. I should have said Augustus (Octavia) Caeser and no he didn't really concern himself too much about Jesus actually.

Constantine made Christianity popular and had it enforced as the official religion for the Roman Empire later on.

He embraced Christianity for he saw the brutal acts of Diocletians's rule and how he brutally persecuted Christians. I think also his mother became a devouted follower of Christianity. I agree it was wrong of the Roman's to persecute the christians, but it looks like he used a eye for an eye himself when he started waging wars in other parts of the country. I find anykind of violence saddening.

When Constantine was proclaimed emperor by his troops he crossed the Alps with an army and defeated Maxentius at the Battle of Milvian Bridge, and became the sole western emperor himself. Milvian Bridge was a key moment in Constantine's religous development. The development was to spread christianity wherever he could.

He also had a (dream) in which God appeared to him, he made his soldiers paint a christian monogram on their shields - in hoc signo vinces - In this sign shalt thou conquer. I don't think Jesus would approve such a emblem and actually be dissapointed about it.


From this point on, his military campaigns became intricately bound up with his religious convictions.

So he used Christianity and its lessons to conquer other nations.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now concerning Jesus and his actions during his adult ministry it did arouse fear and suspicion amongst the authorities, who were concerned at his increasing abilty to draw large crowds. So when around 30, Jesus went to Jerusalem which brought much concern to the city's governors.

Roman troops were usually stationed in Jerusalem and they would watch Jesus triumphant entry into the city, mounted on a donkey. But he created far greater concern when he entered the city's temple, turning over tables as people convened to pay the temple tax and buy sacrificial pigeons. Unfortunately today we see nothing but huge churches everywhere today where people give money in baskets. I don't think Jesus would like that if he would be around in today's society.

The Jewish authorities were aggrieved at the disruption, so they conspired with one of Jesus' disciples, Judas Iscariot, to bring him down. After a final meal with his disciples he was then arrested and taken before Caiaphas, the Jewish high priest in Jerusalem, who adjudged him guilty of blasphemy. Then he was brought to the Roman prefect Pointius Pilate and was sentenced to death probably in the interest of maintaining public order. So yes it was a collaboration of agreements from the Jews who followed the old testament and the Roman government in stopping the popularity or bringing Jesus's idealogy to an end.

Now I am aware that many believe Jesus to be the Messiah, God, or the savior of life or the one who paid for our sins etc. etc., yet some just want to see him as a great humanatarian or a person with good intentions for his people. I am one of them. I also don't believe that he walked on water, healed the blind, as of other supernatural things. Thomas Jefferson had over 300 bibles in his study and he tried to rewrite the bible taking out the supernatural events. It is a interesting book to read. It is called the Jefferson bible. He was a deist that tried to see christianity in a historical reference as oppose to the supernatural phenomenons that so many people want to believe.

One thing we can agree on is that Jesus's philosophy on pacifism, humility, charity and kindness has endured through the ages. If you look at Buddha you will see very little difference between their philosophies. They both emphasized on peace and diplomacy as opposed to violence and fear.

So yes I like Jesus very much, I just don't like the christians.

Mahatma Gandi couldn't have said it better:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Me too. I would probably get killed, I think very critical of leaders and they would slay me fast. lol. :/



This is where we differ and I think if anyone just looks at 1 post of mine (out of 20 or so) will see that.



Thanks for the clear up. :)



Yea, she was. She is where the symbol of the Cross for Christianity begun. To the early church (35AD-350AD) the cross was a symbol of pain and suffering but Constantine's mother had a vision? and it changed everything.



I agree. Jesus would be disappointed.



:) Sounds like you've been reading the bible's point of view. Others would say that "Some rabbi's during that time thought that date is when the Messiah was predicted to enter the city, but Jesus showed up on a donkey." Kind of like "Jesus of Nazareth knew about these opinions and decided to act on them."

Also, others say, it wasn't a "triumphant" entry. More like the day was anticipated but then some "other guy shows up". (This shows kind of how the Jews totally rejected Him, even though their own teachings pointed to Him.)

Also, great summary of the historical events surrounding Jesus' death. :)



Yea, I'm familiar with it.



Yea. Gandhi met John G. Lake, a genuine pentecostal Christian. Lake tried to persuade Gandhi but he wouldn't budge.

I'm with Gandhi but the only minor difference, is I think Jesus=God. Despite the crappy following of Christians.