Topic: Earliest Reference of Christ found
Nubby's photo
Mon 03/16/09 01:42 PM
Edited by Nubby on Mon 03/16/09 01:51 PM
Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.
If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.
The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by French epigrapher and professor emeritus Andre Bernand as meaning either, "by Christ the magician" or "the magician by Christ."
"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.
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He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.
Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, thinks a "magus" could have practiced fortune-telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Mathew in the Bible refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.
According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual.
"It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals."

He added that the individual, or "medium," then goes into a hallucinatory trance when studying the oil in the cup.
"They therefore see the divinities, or supernatural beings appear that they call to answer their questions with regard to the future," he said.
The magus might then have used the engraving on the bowl to legitimize his supernatural powers by invoking the name of Christ, the scientists theorize.
Goddio explained, "It is very probable that in Alexandria they were aware of the existence of Jesus" and of his associated legendary miracles. Based on Biblical texts, these included transforming water into wine, multiplying loaves of bread, conducting miraculous health cures, and the story of the resurrection.
While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process.
Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.
Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis.
Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the god "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.
Fabre concluded, "It should be remembered that in Alexandria, paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religion (evolved) magical practices that seduced both the humble members of the population and the most well-off classes."
"It was in Alexandria where new religious constructions were made to propose solutions to the problem of man, of God's world," he added. "Cults of Isis, mysteries of Mithra, and early Christianity bear witness to this."
The bowl is currently on public display in the exhibit "Egypt's Sunken Treasures" at the Matadero Cultural Center in Madrid, Spain, until November 15.

Nubby's photo
Mon 03/16/09 01:46 PM
I find this interesting, this is exactly what the early rabbinical writings refer to him as, a magician. You see, there is a sense that when Christ came he did miracles.

boredinaz06's photo
Mon 03/16/09 01:48 PM



isn't the Word Christ an Anointment or Title Like Merlin?

Nubby's photo
Mon 03/16/09 01:53 PM




isn't the Word Christ an Anointment or Title Like Merlin?



Yeah

boredinaz06's photo
Mon 03/16/09 02:04 PM



if there's another "Christ" out there I Don't Know about it. but it's a no Brainer the Connection Between Paganism and Christianity. either way this is a Cool Find!

Nubby's photo
Mon 03/16/09 03:47 PM





isn't the Word Christ an Anointment or Title Like Merlin?



Yeah



I made a mistake, The name might have been used by others claiming to be the Messiah.



boredinaz06's photo
Mon 03/16/09 04:49 PM






isn't the Word Christ an Anointment or Title Like Merlin?



Yeah



I made a mistake, The name might have been used by others claiming to be the Messiah.





I'm Pretty Sure it's a Title! but He's the only one I know of with that Title.

Seamonster's photo
Mon 03/16/09 07:32 PM

I find this interesting, this is exactly what the early rabbinical writings refer to him as, a magician. You see, there is a sense that when Christ came he did miracles.


So penn and teller are gods.

They do miracles all the time.

I knew it.

ThomasJB's photo
Tue 03/17/09 07:56 AM
I think people are reading too much into this and seeing the obvious connections made by the words. The title Christ is derived from the Hebrew Messiah and means literally; covered in oil, anointed. In your article it suggested that the owner of the bowl practiced "magic" which included the use of oil. It is no more a leap to see a connection there than it is to find a connection to Jesus.

TBRich's photo
Tue 03/17/09 08:19 AM
Most of these things are later found to be forgeries; but it sounds funny like Simon the Magician! I wonder if he could card tricks as well.

Nubby's photo
Tue 03/17/09 02:43 PM

Most of these things are later found to be forgeries; but it sounds funny like Simon the Magician! I wonder if he could card tricks as well.




I agree with you TB Rich, but this does seem to be legitimate.

Inkracer's photo
Tue 03/17/09 03:40 PM


Most of these things are later found to be forgeries; but it sounds funny like Simon the Magician! I wonder if he could card tricks as well.




I agree with you TB Rich, but this does seem to be legitimate.


Many of the forgeries seemed to be legit to. Until they were proven to be otherwise.

no photo
Wed 03/18/09 03:11 PM






isn't the Word Christ an Anointment or Title Like Merlin?



Yeah



I made a mistake, The name might have been used by others claiming to be the Messiah.



KRST was also engraved on coffins in Egypt long before Jesus. It means Anointed, or returned from whence it came, or returned to the cosmos.

Its not new to jesus.


Inkracer's photo
Wed 03/18/09 03:20 PM
Edited by Inkracer on Wed 03/18/09 03:30 PM







isn't the Word Christ an Anointment or Title Like Merlin?



Yeah



I made a mistake, The name might have been used by others claiming to be the Messiah.



KRST was also engraved on coffins in Egypt long before Jesus. It means Anointed, or returned from whence it came, or returned to the cosmos.

Its not new to jesus.




Like I brought up in another thread, you have the Egyptian God Horus getting the title "KRST" at least 1000 prior to jesus coming onto the scene...

norslyman's photo
Wed 03/18/09 03:25 PM
Yahweh clearly judged the Occult Culture of Egypt during the Exodus. Nothing whatsoever of their CULTure would have anything to do with Yashua's ministry. Reading signs in a bowl of oil? No. This is the history of the anointing oil in scripture.
----------------------------------------------------


Jesus' name means "the Anointed". This is a study guide to help further understand the significance of the olive oil as a Christian.


Holy Anointing Oil


And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This shall be an holy anointing oil unto me throughout your generations. Exodus 30:31



Olive oil in God's Word was used for:


An olive leaf was first carried by the dove to the ark
Olive oil was used to anoint for healing
Olive oil was used to anoint spiritual leaders, priests
Olive oil was used to represent prosperity
Olive oil was used to anoint the rock Jacob slept upon in which the Lord blessed his seed
Olive oil was used to light the tabernacle
Olive oil was used to represent adoration, dedication to the Lord
Olive oil was used as a symbol of the Christian people
Christ's name means "Christos" or "the anointed"
Olive oil is the truth in the lamps of the 10 virgins in that last hour
At the last trump, when Christ returns his feet will touch the mount of Olives



As we know 'anoint' means:

mashach ^4886^, "to smear with oil or paint, anoint." This verb, which appears 69 times in biblical Hebrew, has cognates in Ugaritic, Akkadian, Aramaic, and Arabic. The objects of this verb are people, sacrificial victims, and objects of worship. Aaron and his sons are the objects of this verb in Exodus. 30:30

Jesus is the anointed one:

Acts 10:38

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Here is the verse Exodus 30:30 with some translation:

And thou shalt anoint (4886 mashach (maw-shakh'); a primitive root; to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by implication, to consecrate; also to paint: KJV-- anoint, paint.)

Aaron (75 'Aharown (a-har-one'); of uncertain derivation; Aharon, the brother of Moses: KJV-- Aaron.

and his sons, (121 ben (bane); from 1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense )

and consecrate ( 6942 qadash (kaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): sanctify)

them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office. (3547 kahan (kaw-han'); a primitive root, apparently meaning to mediate in religious services; to officiate as a priest; figuratively, to put on regalia)

This olive oil mentioned above was used for use in the anointing of the tabernacle, the alter, the ark of the covenant, the candlesticks, the congregation (appointed feasts), and as it mentioned above in the commentary 'Aaron and his sons' as the priesthood to be carried through the generations making them 'most holy' and this 'holy anointing oil'.