Saw both videos. Very funny

Thank you.

All you have to do is look through history to see that religion is not peaceful.

Going farther back in History, you have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Witch Trails. More recently have the murder of gays, and the Islam jihad against all infidels. Hell, each Holy Book clearly states that you are to kill those who do not believe as you do.

As I stated in another thread, How can that, which is not peaceful, bring/maintain peace.

Exactly, did you watch the vids?

Yep. Thought they were great.

I thought so too. Perfect for this thread, Mwa Ha Ha!

Whatever anyone is saying, it's nor religion that breeds peace, neither does it breed atrocities. It's people using religion to do whatever they want to do.

Yes, but doesn't that basically say that religion is useless then?

This is what I'm always trying to point out to Eljay. He's constantly taking that stance that no decent person would interpret religion in a bad way.

Well duh?

If you already need to be a decent person BEFORE you get into religion, then doesn't that basically make the whole thing moot?

At least as a claim of being a moral system of guidance?

Even when I was a Christian I had to question the value of the moral lessons in the Bible.

What's the point of the moral lessons if all you do is shake your head in agreement and say, "Yep, I agree".

I mean, how can you "follow" a moral teacher if the moral teacher is already walking in your footsteps?

And what good is the religion if bad people can actually use it as an excuse to do bad things?

I think it's crystal clear that the Bible states that God does not care about heathens. God tells people in the Old Testament that it's their duty to seek out heathens and kill them without mercy including their wives and children. That's a pretty cold-blooded picture of a God.

Yet, this is precisely what the doctrine claims that God has commanded people to do!

And how is a heathen defined? Simply as anyone who doesn't believe that that Bible is the word of God!

That's pretty scary right there and it seems to me that anyone how has that book in their hand could easily use it as an excuse to murder anyone who doesn't believe that it's the word of God. In fact, wasn't that basically the driving force behind the Crusades?

Believe that this book is the word of God or DIE!

For this is what the book has commanded that we should DO!

I don't know. Seems to me that the doctrine should hold responsiblity for the words that it contains. And if those words truly came from a God, then that God is responsibile for having written the book!

To claim that religion is whatever you make it seems to me to be somewhat misplaced, when a doctrine clearly commands people that it's their duty to muder heathens. That's written in a book that people are claiming to be the "Word of God". How can we say that it's a matter of personal opinion when it clearly commands people to do these things?

And what sense does it make to say that nice people use religion nicely and bad people use religion in evil ways. Either the book supports what they are doing or it doesn't. If it's that ambiguous that it can support either good or evil then what good is it?

To answer the question posed by the first post there has to my knowledge of religious history one point in time of religious precepts that advocated peace and acceptance, not toleration, but pure unconditional acceptance of all peoples male and female. During the early Christianity, many ideas floated around from Egypt to Rome of Christ's teachings meaning an abundance of different gospels that people accepted and read. Among these different teachings you had two major camps: the Gnostics and the Orthodoxy. The Orthodoxy were to be well organized and would eventually slaughter the people of the Gnostic camp. The Gnostics were unorganized and practiced a range of religious and ideologies, but the basic were the universal for the movement. These included equality of the sexes even within the church, the knowledge and teaching that the gospels were not in actuality about Jesus but rather teachings on how one should live with their fellow man (though in some gospels such as Judas or Mary the teachings are secret and require that knowledge to be passed down orally in order for the true meanings to be understood), and the rejection of the old, jealous, and often tyrannical gods (this includes the god of the Jews) for the acceptance of a creator that seems really indifferent of Humanity placing instead our goals toward helping and benefiting each other. The aspect of God was polytheistic in a sense that the gods that ruled Humanity before Jesus' teaching were demi and false gods that did not deserve our faith and exaltation because they had nothing to really do with our lives. And what is even more remarkable is the fact that among these gnostic groups hierarchy was rejected for a more fair approach toward societal ideals that gave each individual the opportunity to teach and learn, allowing outsiders and differences to enter in the community. A completely revolutionary approach, even by our standards today, these people taught and understood that society was in a constant state of flux and the best way to make a better community was to allow change to take place. Of course, the Orthodoxy claimed these people were heretics and slaughtered them for the more stagnant view of the world and Humanity almost wiping out there presence in our history (thank the universe for archaeology) and by the 4th century none of these communities survived the purging of the Church. If you would like to learn more pick up some books on gnostism, especially Sethian gnostism, I mean they make Judas a hero!

Just some info on myself. Born Jewish and at one point I was a practicing Orthodox. Now I don't believe in the religious view of god or even really god, I consider my spiritual needs met by what I learn and the knowledge that everything in the Universe is connected and yet separate, a kind of yin and yang philosophy that life is a struggle of balance. As for the history presented I did the majority of my undergrad at Washington University in St. Louis where I took every class the religious studies department offered for non degrees as well as reading a lot of books about different religion's history. I would just like to emphasize that I do not have a degree in religious studies and I do not pretend to be a scholar in the subject, rather what I have presented above is a summary based upon books and papers by true scholars in the subject.

I guess I missed that debate abra ... sorry

IMO no descent person would wish harm on someone (religious or not)
there are good people that aren't religious and good relgious people. for me at least....what I follow has guided me to help others not wish them harm....but that's just me. can't speak for others as to why they do good or bad.

Thank you for taking the time to type this rich information. Indeed I will look for some of the studies you have suggested.

This is very interesting.

What you just said here makes perfect sense to me. I also agree that I've heard a lot of historical evidence to back up these scenarios.

I'm totally convinced that the popular orthodox gospels that exist in the cannon we call "The Holy Bible" were indeed fabricated by the orthodox Christians to give credence to their rumors.

I'm totally convinced that this is the truth of history. And your studies seem to be in total agreement with this view.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Buddhism teaches peace, and enlightenment. Look into that one if you want anything related to peace coming from religion.

I agree. And it seems that people have difficulty understanding how another person might feel in any given situation. So instead of giving them the consideration of the possible misunderstanding of their feelings they judge and discard them.

I disagree. Whenever you take a doctrine and inbed it into a person with the implication that if they question it they will be forever damned the doctrines power supersedes their personal power.

I agree and Wicca is also universal in the sense that it does not breed judgement and retribution.

or one can go to Jamaica and enjoy the beaches and sun with great cocktails and delicious food instead

I think we should blame all the religious dissention on internet forums. One only needs to browse them to see that they must be the cause. And anyone who disagrees with that is obviously unable to think logically and form a rational conclusion.

Yes...

And inso doing, we discard our own hearts' wisdom...

continually damning others (ultimately ourselves) and attempting to counter-act our own living hell by further finger-pointing and intolerance of any belief other than our own.

The doctrine gains "power" and the individual exponentially loses confidence in the wisdom of his/her own heart.

Continued bullying to push any doctrine's agenda feeds a machine of lost children. The more lost we become, the more feroceously we bang blindly into one another while becoming further and further isolated from our own wisdom.