Both have done good things for computer tech. people like to single
gates out as a bad person but if computers arent run by a few general
operating systems they'd never really be compatible world wide.. yes
microsoft needs to jack lot of power into security but oh well. as for
jobs.. hes ok.. i think the idea of putting a ipod into everything is
getting excessive

i think they should both get married and adopt me!!!

>> if computers arent run by a few general
operating systems they'd never really be compatible world wide..

I'm sorry Jess, but this is just wrong, completely wrong. Native
applications must be compiled for the processor used in a particular
piece of hardware (unless emulated), but as for the relationship between
the application and the operating system, its all about system call
compatibility and library compatibility - which does NOT require the
same operating system be used. Look at all the software which runs
easily on all the BSD variants and on Linux, look at what they do with
WINE.

Not to mention the use of interpreted (and bytecode interpreted)
languages, which can be completely independent of both the OS (provided
the interpreter exists for the OS). Such as Perl, Python, Java, the CLI
collection of languages, Ruby, javascript...

And *then* we also have the ability to run the software on a server,
and provide a remote interface, such as via a browser.

There's a whole list of reasons we have NO NEED for an OS monoculture.

The only reason people think that way, is because this has dominated
the industry for so long.

My favorite...


"Oh I hate Bill Gates because he has too much money but I just bought a
new dell with Windows Vista!"


Yeah, its a quote I made up... but its a true one.


Why say you hate someone and then buy their stuff??


I have to say it, I hate people. Haha.


I have a MacBook and an HP with Windows XP Pro. Don't have anything
wrong with either of these men. I think they both have great companies.
And if you complain, I better not come to your house and see either
Windows or OS- on your machine.

Thanks, bye.

Sterb,

You say "If you hate Gates, why buy windows?" and the answer is: "Some
people hate Gates *because* they *have* to buy windows!"

Sure, MacOS and Linux exist - both are great, and do more than most
people realize - but because of the monopoly MS has had for so long,
-some- peoples needs are still only met by using windows.

Interesting topic, so I will voice my opinion. Personally I don't have a
problem with either one, both of them have brought this industry to
where it is today. It doesn't matter who stole what or who is richer.

My complaint is with those who hack the OS for thier own gain. I have
been hacked more than once and I use hardware and software firewalls. I
know enough about this OS to fit in a thimble compared to those who can
hack me.

I have heard people complain about this delemma for years and as far as
I my experience goes MS systems have been accepted by software
manufacturers as well as the public. Point n click for ease and usage. I
tried using Linux and line commands for installing games a few years
ago, however it didn't go very well. The browsers were definatly better,
however I was still hacked because I had no idea how to set up the
firewalls properly.

I know enough to help friends in need, however as far as writing html or
building web pages that is not something I have put my mind to.

If you ask me I would like those who complain the most about the lack of
security in these operating systems to tell me how to run a linux system
that will run games and have the ease that windows accesses files n
such. The line command doesn't work for me, as I am sure most that use
windows will agree with.

Oh and make sure the software manufacturers are designing games for
Linux too. They have a lot to do with what OS is being used.





G

I agree grif the games are writen for windows and some for mac. However
writing web pages or sites developers should not have to write to
multiple standards. Microsoft needs to start to follow the international
standards as published by the W3C.

THey are written by the worlds experts from many companies. Microsoft
has never taken Open source seriously and that is why the server market
is not theirs.

They have been able to flood the desktop market by reputation with the
manufacturers of those desktops.

It was only recently that Dell indicated they were going to offer a
linux desktop on their product line. Before that it wias all Microsoft.
You would think that Microsoft would get a hint but they have not.

I develop sites and code all day long and most of the night. I do it on
a microsoft desktop because of compatibuility with the programs I used
to do my work. However all my servers are running linux environments for
the websites. they are faster more secure and more reliable. Most of the
viruses out there as well as spyware are written to effect microsoft
products.

You dont have to take my word for it though just install Thunderbird as
an email client and import your mail to it from any version of outlook
odds are your av software will kick in and find multiple infected files
during the change over as well.

So should we hate GM because we HAVE to own cars? Cars are MUCH more
expensive and MUCH more insecure than windows. If you look at the
statistics for cars getting scratched, dented, and wrecked, I can
guarantee that the numbers are higher than those for windows getting
hacked. Especially when you realize that some people own 3+
computers...how many cars do you own? Can I ask you how many scratches
you have on your car?

BECAUSE people started having cars, distances increased. And BECAUSE
the distances started increasing, people HAD to get cars. The same
holds for windows. Apple shot themselves in the foot many many years
ago, so they lost the market share they could have had, so now, BECAUSE
people have windows, most software is for windows. BECAUSE most
software is for windows...people have windows. I don't see how that's
Microsoft's fault. Bill Gates had a vision.

From kevin:
------------------------
Don't forget he will need to have the same level of knowlege as those
people he is paying a swell and I bet he does not even know one
programming language his people write. Sounds to me like he would not
hire himself if he saw his own resume
-----------------------

from the wikipedia:
----------------------------
Gates excelled in elementary school, particularly in mathematics and the
sciences.
...
According to Gates, people at Microsoft often did more than one job
during the early years; whoever answered the phone when an order came in
was responsible for packing and mailing it. Gates oversaw the business
details, but continued to write code as well. In the first five years,
he personally reviewed every line of code the company shipped, and often
rewrote parts of it as he saw fit.
----------------------------
Maybe...you should do a bit more research before you make a claim like
that. (just like your spell checker isn't working for you).

Yeah, MS software has a lot of issues, as does any software... but
then...EVERYTHING has bugs. If You had 500 million people (I'm guessing
that's about right...1/12 people...) using a piece of software with that
many features...they would find as many flaws as well. Especially those
who are TRYING to find them for fun and profit.

I work for a security company...those bugs in Windows keep us working,
haha.

>> So should we hate GM because we HAVE to own cars? Cars are MUCH more expensive and MUCH more insecure than windows.

Korangen,

Wow, man! Think about what you are saying. Cars are a product
category. GM is a company. THINK ABOUT IT.

If GM had created a situation in which you -have- to buy one of
-their- cars in order for your car to be compatible with the major kinds
of gas that is available, or the main kinds of roads we drive on, then
yes we would and should hate GM also. But we have a choice to buy cars
from one of a number of different companies.

>> I don't see how that's Microsoft's fault. Bill Gates had a vision.

Just to pick one recent example, have you been following the situation
between ODF and Office Open XML?

----------------------
If GM had created a situation in which you -have- to buy one of
-their- cars in order for your car to be compatible with the major kinds
of gas that is available, or the main kinds of roads we drive on, then
yes we would and should hate GM also. But we have a choice to buy cars
from one of a number of different companies.
--------------------------------

You're approaching this problem the wrong way. The competition to the
car, was the railroad, people were given a choice to use it. Then GM
neutralized major railways, which essentially forced people to use cars
instead of trains. The difference is, GM had solid competition from the
start.

Apple and "IBM clones" were the first systems that were out. IBM
clones, because they were clonable and compatible began to thrive, apple
began to die. That's why I say that GM had solid competition, because
the cars ALL worked on roads, not the railroads, whereas MacOS was like
a railroad...it works on the rails...and nowhere else...but cars don't
work on rails, but they do everywhere else.

I know that MS attempted is not entirely innocent, I know they attempted
to kill java among other things...

Have you seen who killed the electric car? Since you bring up GM
dictating what gasoline goes in the car... I know it wasn't GM
singlehandedly killing the electric car...but they aren't innocent.

Okay, now that you've explained the railroad connection, going back to
your original question:

>> So should we hate GM because we HAVE to own cars?

We *should* have contempt for the people who made the decisions to
destroy the railroad competition in this way. Capitalism gives the best
results if products and service compete on their own merits, not if they
compete through methods such as that. So the answer to your previous
question, with this new explanation, is a qualified "Yes."

(Truly, though, I do not blame present day GM for the past railroad
issue because the peopel involved then are so long gone...)

I don't want to go off topic on the electric car issue, I'll trust you
that GM did some evil things.

---
I don't want to go off topic on the electric car issue, I'll trust you
that GM did some evil things.
--------

Good, because my point isn't about the electric cars or anything, it's
the fact that oil companies are further in bed with politicians than
microsoft can ever hope to be...last I checked...no MS employee has ever
been president, haha.

But the point is, that's it's easy to jump on the "Bill Gates/MS"
bandwagon because you know who he is. If I told you the CEO of Shell,
BP, Aral, Amoco, Texaco, you wouldn't even know who they are (or most
people wouldn't anyway)...and it's tough to hate the unit ("Oil
companies") but it's easy to hate the man (Bill Gates). That's where my
issues come from, not from present or past transgressions of other
companies...because they are all, in their own way, guilty.

Korangen, you are right that Gate's celebrity adds fuel to the fire of
contempt, as well as the underlying psychology of having emotions toward
individuals vs having emotions about corporations.

There is another factor in why some people have more contempt for MS
then they have for Shell, etc. We have -watched- the software industry
be destroyed by MS's anti-competitive practices. It happened fast
enough for us to see it happening, and to know - while we watched
company after company, product after product disappear, who was
responsible.

Personally, I don't mind watching people get wealthy. In the early days
of Google, I was stoked to see the author of Perl getting rich. And I
was happy to hear when Torvalds was gifted a huge chunk of stock.

Younger people have been born into a MS world, and don't know the
history. They believe the lies about "innovation."

But while watching Gates get wealthy, I was also watching truly great
products companies and products die.

I'd have to say on their technical records that I like Jobs better,
thanks to his drive to get the Mac built. It is a superb machine, and
trumps the PCs hands-down.

This from an ELIZA user, many years ago.

Of course, Jobs and Wozniak stole the GUI from XEROX Parc.


Oceans

as to the comparison with GM....I don't have to learn to drive all over
again when I buy a new car. I don't have to hit start to turn the car
off. The car doesn't just freeze up when I'm going down the road. I
don't have to call somebody half a world away to talk about a problem
with my car...etc etc

------------
as to the comparison with GM....I don't have to learn to drive all over
again when I buy a new car. I don't have to hit start to turn the car
off. The car doesn't just freeze up when I'm going down the road. I
don't have to call somebody half a world away to talk about a problem
with my car...etc etc
-----------

this is exactly the kind of stupidity I'm talking about. You don't
drive your car like you use windows. If you wanted to use windows like
you use your car, turn it on, open notepad, type a letter, maybe use the
calculator, then turn it off.

But that's not what you do...
You pull the computer out of the box, and you turn it on, and then you
install AOL.
OK, so let's equate that to...going to a 7-11 and asking the man behind
the counter to change your oil. This is AOL we are talking about, so
change a few spark plugs in your engine, and then spray paint AOL in big
letters on your car (bonus points for putting it on the windshield in
the corner).
Next...you decide to install the printer on your computer...preferably
one of those you get for free...or $10 or so.
(yes, printer=drivers...nuff said).
So you pop the hood of your car, take the cooling system, and splice it,
put a little black box next to the engine that is now cooled along with
your engine (with the same cooling system), connect it to the engine
with a belt, because the black box, at random times will need access to
power from the engine. Hook the black box up to the radio, because
whenever you start your car, you want to hear and see the pretty little
black box graphic.

We almost forgot the antivirus.

Put an additional filter between the fuel line and the engine,
preferably one that constricts gas flow a little. Then, divert 10% of
the engine power to a second black box which actually cleans your
pistons while you drive.

Now, you have to realize that you would never drive this car at 60, so
hop on in, put the UHaul trailer on the hitch, and go 120 on the
highway.

Now tell me your car is gonna run perfectly for more than 3 miles, and
it won't suddenly shut down completely at random intervals.

Yes, I exaggerate, but the fact is, a "clean system" like a clean car,
WILL work never requiring shutdowns, reboots, or anything...but as soon
as you install ANYTHING, it's not a clean system...just like it's not a
clean car. And yeah, installing some software is like changing the
tires...but most software is not that clean...so you NEVER actually use
a clean system, but USUALLY use a clean car...

--------------------------
There is another factor in why some people have more contempt for MS
then they have for Shell, etc. We have -watched- the software industry
be destroyed by MS's anti-competitive practices. It happened fast enough
for us to see it happening, and to know - while we watched company after
company, product after product disappear, who was responsible.

Personally, I don't mind watching people get wealthy. In the early days
of Google, I was stoked to see the author of Perl getting rich. And I
was happy to hear when Torvalds was gifted a huge chunk of stock.

Younger people have been born into a MS world, and don't know the
history. They believe the lies about "innovation."

But while watching Gates get wealthy, I was also watching truly great
products companies and products die.
---------------------

OK, I can see that, it's definitely more "here and now" than some other
things...although the electric car was killed off only a few years
ago... but I see that.

And I guess you didn't like my other analogy about the car and windows,
haha!