Any wrestling fans on here?

I am a huge WWE Monday night RAW fan.
My absolute favorite diva is Kelly Kelly.
Now the real man on RAW Is John Cena.

I'm Kelly...not Kelly Kelly... :)

As you can probably tell I'm a huge wrestling fan, WWE mainly.

Cena, Kelly Kelly etc etc etc.

I will say you are pretty Kelly!!

I watch mainly Raw and Smackdown, i'm not sure why, but I just can't get into ECW enough to watch it(It's just something in how the show is run/presented)
Anyway My Favorites:
Raw: CM Punk, Kofi, Kane, and Mickie James
Smackdown: Undertaker, Jeff Hardy, and the Bella Twins.

I might be the only wrestling fan on here that doesn't like WWE.

Oh, I watch WrestleMania every year. I can never miss that. Otherwise no WWE. I prefer TNA, Ring of Honor, SHIMMER Women Athletes, New Japan, All Japan, Pro Wrestling NOAH and Dragon Gate.

I second that one about Kelly being pretty. Not just that but hot too.

<---------- the champ is here

Final tally:

198 wrestling magazines dating back to 1994, with one published in '93 and one from 1990.

42 wrestling dvds.

31 wrestling books/autobiographies/historical pieces, including "Wrestling Title Histories."

51 wrestling tapes.

111 burned discs with a total of several hundred wrestling files on them, plus plenty more stored on my hard drive that I haven't yet copied to discs.

Plus, three individual wrestling-related works I'm currently trying to finish.

I might be the biggest wrestling nerd in Canada.

I have been watching TNA for a while now and a couple of things really stand out...and they aren't good things.

1) The announcers are OBVIOUSLY reading from a script. Tenay and that other goof just have no real " delivery " in their announcing.

2) Although the six sided ring is kinda cool, it does not make for good wrestling action. You can tell that there are times ( way too may of them ) that the guys go into an Irish Whip and have no idea whether they are going to go to the ropes or into a corner. The ring completely screws up the timing required to make the action at least LOOK realistic.

3) Even the promos are all scripted. At least in WWE, if someone is good on the mic, Vince will allow them to go " off the cuff " in their promos. The guys may rehearse what they are going to say, but when something unexpected comes up, they can adjust easily to it. One good example I can think of in WWE is a Cena promo that was on two weeks ago on Raw. Cena broke into a Harry Carey impression and the camera had to cut away from Stephanie McMahon because she could barely keep a straight face. You see that kind of thing happen quite a bit. Especially when Triple H and Shawn Michaels were doing DX promos. 80% of the stuff they did was rehearsed, but that other 20% was completely ad lib. THOSE are the best kinds of promos.

All of those things work against TNA. The show lacks spontaneity. The product could be really good if Jarrett would allow the guys a little more freedom. Of course, it would also help if he didn't keep hiring WWE castoffs like Booker T. I know you are a Booker fan, but the guy just has very few mic skills. He isn't all that great a performer either.

All of those things work against TNA.

I disagree with your six sided ring theory. I don't see how it affects the action at all. The only reason they have a six sided ring is because it looks distinctive. TNA didn't invent it either; AAA in Mexico and Toryumon X in Japan were the first organizations to use a six-sided ring, and there you had some of the most fast-paced wrestling in the world.

I don't know if they script what Tenay and Don West say word for word. There's no way to prove it; I hear what you're saying, but they give that impression because they don't have the same chemistry as such legendary announcing combos as Ross-Lawler, Schiavone-Heenan and Monsoon-Ventura. Simply put, Tenay never struck me as a great choice to call blow-by-blow. I always thought Tenay was better in the know-it-all sidekick role like he was with Schiavone in WCW.

I don't think Tenay and West are neccessarily deserving of all the criticism they get, but then again, this is coming from a guy that had to listen to Eric Bischoff commentate on Nitro for years. After you've listened to Bischoff speak, anybody sounds good.

Of course Tenay's tendency to needlessly deliver relentless hyperbole---he goes nuts with every single common thing you see happen in the ring---does sometimes deliver that impression that he's speaking from a script, I think he's just never been fully comfortable as the face man of a major promotion. He's much better as a second hand broadcaster in which his sole purpose is to elaborate on the moves/holds called by the blow-by-blow man.

One thing I strongly agree is your opinion with is TNA's nonstop pursuit of WWE talent. To say the least, I am sick of it. Of them all, Kurt Angle and Team 3D were the only signings that made sense because TNA could use the established stars...but having bums like Christian Cage, Rhino, and most assuredly Booker T (who for some reason I can't understand is speaking with a Jamaican accent now; most likely Vince Russo's doing) just displaces the guys that give TNA its identity, namely Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, The Motor City Machine Guns, etc.

Booker T is the best example of a bright prospect that wrestles elsewhere for a few years, then goes to WWE and suddenly it's likes he's forgotten how to wrestle. Booker never regained the ability to have good matches that he had in WCW with men like Benoit just a year prior to his WWE signing, and that old brilliance hasn't returned since he joined TNA. Sadly, Booker is just one of many WWE stars to have developed what I call the WWE complex.

Take a good look at a WWE show...any show. Then go back to watching TNA. I am not saying that the six sided ring is a BAD thing, but TNA ( unlike the other promotions you mentioned ) performers have yet to actually master it. There are a lot of times that the action looks " choppy ". Even when guys like Angle, Sting, Nash, guys who have YEARS of experience are wrestling. The action is just not as fluid in the TNA ring.



The biggest mistake I have seen WWE make in a long time was taking JR off RAW and splitting up the Ross-Lawler announcing team. Putting Cole alongside Lawler was just silly.

I do find it kind of funny to listen to though. You can actually HEAR Lawler teaching Cole how to be a good announcer.

Trust me. I had to listen to Bischoff as well. Not only as a commentator, but as RAW's General manager. * shudders *



Cage didn't have the right kind of attitude for TNA. Angle...well...Vince sent him home to get help for his addiction to painkillers, and Angle bolted to TNA. Basically, in my opinion, TNA is making the same mistakes that WCW made. We'll see if Jarrett is savvy enough to hold things together.

Booker speaking with the accent...well..if you pay attention, one week he's Jamaican, next week he's " British ". All I know is that the dude can't do ANY kind of accent worth a spit.

Rhino just needs to go away.

Team 3D. They are the number one reason I think that TNA is all scripted. Right down to the promos. Bubba Ray used to do some of the best promos I had heard. But now he just sounds like he is reciting lines.



I think Booker is in it for nothing more than a paycheck. Once he figured out that he just couldn't perform up to Vince's standards ( which are extremely high ) Booker just decided to go with what little ability he had in the first place and go somewhere he could pick up a big contract.

I really don't mind Jarrett wanting to pick up talent from the WWE. He just needs to be a little more picky who he tries to snag.

I don't see how you can perceive TNA action to be "choppy" at all...Now granted, I only watch the PPVs on a regular basis...but if I was to attach the term choppy to a wrestling product, it would be WWE's product. All televised WWE matches follow the same pattern and have since 2000 or so, regardless of whether it is pay-per-view or Raw, Smackdown, etc. The wrestlers just punch and kick with the odd chair shot thrown in to appease the hardcore fanatics. Then its a particular wrestlers set up move followed by his finisher. Since 2000, WWE wrestling has been become bland and predictable as they tried to suck the art of wrestling out of the business in favor of Vince McMahon's narrow concept of "entertainment." That's what I would call choppy.

The lone exception to this was Smackdown TV and PPVs from 2002 to about 2004. That was when they strived to make the brands as different from one another as they could, before suddenly shifting gears with the poorly conceived talent draft of '04. Said talent draft made Raw and Smackdown indistinguishable from one another, and I've never been into WWE since.

I don't know specifically who you are referring to when you say choppy, or if you mean the promotion as a whole. I certainly wouldn't describe the matches of Angle, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, The Latin American Xchange or a lot of the other talent as choppy. New Japan wrestlers are used to wrestling in the traditional ring of their home promotion, yet I see no difference in the quality of their work when they perform in TNA's six sided ring.

Looking to TNA, even if what you say is true, and that every concept is entirely scripted, I wouldn't blame Jarrett. Remember, the Jarretts gave up their majority share of TNA to Dixie Carter and Panda Energy several years ago. Carter has more of a say in TNA than Jarrett, although Jarrett maintains influence with his position on the booking team. Remember also that since Jarrett's wife Jill died of breast cancer a year or so back, Jarrett distanced himself from the business until recently.

TNA has always been a company that is markedly superior to WWE in terms of match quality. If everything were scripted, rest assured, we would not have that.

Not being " into " WWE would mean that you don't actually watch the shows. Am I correct??

You obviously haven't been watching because the show isn't nearly as predictable as you want to make it out to be. Or do you just have an anti WWE bias that you aren't saying anything about??

I agree that the " talent draft " was a terrible idea. Especially the most recent one.



Like you, my brother and I have been watching wrestling for a lot of years. But if you can't see the missed moves and fouled up timing that is occasionally caused by the ring, then I really won't be able to convince you that it's there. You seem to have a problem with WWE, all the way up to saying that TNA's matches ( not some of them, but all of them ) are superior to WWE's. That is simply absurd.

The WWE has more experienced talent like Shawn Michaels, who is known as one of the best performers in the business, Triple H, same goes for him, Jeff and Matt Hardy....etc. Those guys put on much better matches than the majority of TNA matches wind up being.

There are some very good performers in TNA. I am not in any way saying that there aren't. Samoa Joe, A.J. Styles Eric Young...there are quite a few. The problem is, for every great performer, there is a clunker like Booker T or Scott Steiner or Rhino.

But again, for all the great performers in WWE...there is a clunker like Batista.

I have nothing against TNA. I like the Impact show, which I DVR every week. It just has a few things going that bother me.

Alright so maybe there is an anti-WWE bias...I won't deny it, but let me just say this...I have given WWE so many chances that it is sad really. I assure you there is a logical reason for this.

Up until the early 2000s, I was the biggest WWE fan. The biggest. I wanted them to trump WCW so bad. Be careful what you wish for. In 1999, the WWF began to overtake WCW in the ratings. The deficit between the two companies got so bad that I got the feeling that the WWF no longer considered WCW a threat. Whereas before, Raw had been the most compelling show on television, with matches averaging 15 minutes, that number was halved, and 30-minute monologues became standard fare. 7-minute matches and 30-minute monologues. Ugh.

As a true fan, I stayed loyal to the WWF, even in the face of such absurdities as the Mae Young pregnancy and the Katie Vick necrophilia angle. Eventually, WCW was brought out by the WWF. With no competition in the wrestling industry, the quality of the WWF product became worse than ever.

I was patient; in retrospect I believe too patient. I figured that with the WWF's acquisition of WCW and later ECW, we would see the compelling WWF-WCW dream matches that we as wrestling fans had been waiting for.

Ugh. How naive I was. How could I have ever believed, in my right mind, that McMahon would pass up the opportunity to completely discredit the promotion that very nearly put him out of business?

From the start, the WWF sabotaged what should have been the greatest angle in wrestling history. Only a handful of WCW main eventers, such as Booker T and Dallas Page, were brought out of their Time Warner/AOL contracts to become involved in the war. The WWF simply wasn't willing to sign other stars. Goldberg, Nash, Steiner, Flair, they were all a major part of WCW. None were signed. Now, you could argue that the WWF would have lost a lot of money in signing them out of their ridiculously overpaid contracts. I would argue that the company had money to spare. The WWF was enjoying its most profitable period, and without viable competition from a wrestling source, Things were bound to get better. The WWF also paid a mere $2-million for WCW, which as far as wrestling promotions go, was very cheap. I would go further to say that if the WWF had ever intended the Alliance storyline to work, they would have been all too willing to shell out the extra bucks to gain a few more WCW stars.

2001 was a dark period for wrestling. It was that year that we were subjected to the travesty that was the WWF-Alliance feud. As a wrestling fan I felt raped. To make the storyline semi-believable, the WWF had to put turncoat WWF stars into the major positions in the Alliance. Steve Austin, who left WCW on very bitter terms, was pushed as the champion of the WCW cause, which was almost more than I could stomach. Except for Booker T, the WCW championship was held solely by WWF guys. Except for Rob Van Dam, not one, NOT ONE wrestler who had made his name in WCW or ECW was given a meaningful win on WWF pay-per-view in 2001. I'm not counting The Dudleys, who arrived in the WWF two years before the Alliance feud started.

2001 was the year I was subjected to such tripe as "Sing-along with Austin." Every WWF segment during this time appeared to be arranged to induce as many chuckles as it could. I found myself extremely insulted as a hardcore purist and a wrestling fan, and I also found that I watched less and less Raw in the late months of 2001 as I truly wondered what was happening to wrestling. I also found myself thinking a lot about how hard I could kick the balls of Brian Gewirtz, the creative genius who invented a lot of this nonsense.

As far as I was concerned, Survivor Series was the last straw for my WWF fanhood. Survivor Series 2001 was, in my opinion, the worst PPV abomination in wrestling history (and I've seen some godawful TNA ppvs too). I sat down in a bar to watch it via closed circuit wondering if WCW really stood much of a chance and whether this was really worth seeing. I somehow convinced myself that it was. But when it was over, I felt like I had wasted three hours of my life that I would never get back. I felt ripped off...and I had paid a mere $5 cover charge for my seat. Had I paid the full amount to see the Series at home, I would have been really irate.

Survivor Series 2001 was the most predictable, one-sided wrestling PPV I had ever witnessed. It was a showdown between the WWF and Alliance, and if the Alliance won most of a best of seven series of matches, they would get to stay in the WWF. I didn't figure they would win, but it wasn't even close. The main event was an 10-man tag between the two factions. Booker and Van Dam were the only two wrestlers on the Alliance side with legitimate ties to WCW and ECW. I remember little else about it, other than it was 45 minutes of the punch-kick that had by then become typical of WWF wrestling, followed by the win by the WWF. That ended the Alliance storyline, and it took what was left of the reserves of patience I still had for the company. I phased out all WWE programming for quite awhile.

Then, guess who shows up in the WWF the next night. Flair. I didn't see it, but I read about it. It's like the WWF was holding him in reserve in case his presence was enough to hotshot the Alliance angle.

I have criticized WWF/WWE for many paragraphs, so let me switch gears. The first brand extension draft occurred in early-2002. I know this because I continued to follow wrestling through the magazines even as my fanhood hung by a thread. In mid-2002, I watched Raw and found it to be the same tired crap. Endless talking, punch-kick matches. A few guys like Shawn Michaels actually tried, but more or less Raw hadn't changed. Then I watched Smackdown and was thoroughly impressed. WWE had decided that Raw would showcase the talkers, Smackdown the wrestlers. Guys like Lesnar, Angle, Misterio, Benoit and Guerrero carried the show and made it well worth watching. I was pleased with this, and eagerly plunked down cash to buy a number of PPVs. SummerSlam '02, Survivor Series '02 Royal Rumble '03 and WrestleMania XIX featured some good wrestling that easily stands up against the wrestling of any era. I was overjoyed to say the least, especially because I wasn't sure that TNA had what it took to ultimately last more than a few years.

Then the talent draft of '04 shifted some of Smackdown's best wrestlers---Benoit and Shelton Benjamin most notably---to the Raw side. Everything began to unravel. I was displeased to say the least, but I continued to watch Smackdown in good faith while occasionally monitering Raw to detect any improvements. I saw little of anything good in Raw.

Anyway, continuing my rambling story, I kept faith throughout 04 and 05 that if I kept watching Smackdown it would get better. I noticed the opposite trend was taking place. By the end of 2005, I had written WWE off. Now once every few months, I told myself I would watch something made by WWE to see if there was any change. With the sole exception of WrestleMania, WWE just wasn't worth watching anymore. The ridiculous angles, including the stupid Vince McMahon "death" angle, unfortunately reinforced that opinion.

As far as match quality goes, I don't understand how anyone can consider WWE to be superior to TNA. WWE has the advantage in marketable stars and the knowledge of how to best push those stars. Overall, TNA simply has the better workers. This is not a mark against certain guys like Shawn Michaels. Kofi Kingston is another I'm impressed with.

But simply put, WWE exercises certain restraints when it comes to their wrestlers and what they can do in the ring. Since 2000, it was as if many of the wrestlers had lost their skill inexplicably. You can dispute me on that, but the spate of injuries WWE stars were suffering in 2001 is what led the company to adopt a less demanding "WWE-style." I understood the motivation, but their decision was having an adverse effect on the ring action, and don't wrestlers know the risks? They even have developmental leagues in which wrestlers are taught the WWE style. Wrestlers coming in from other companies are encouraged to "adapt" to this style---that is discard each and every little thing that is unique about that wrestler in exchange for a character. Said star is then pressured to change their in-ring styles to be less risky and therefore less entertaining.

An excellent example of this is Paul London. No one can sit here and tell me that that guy is anything like the wrestler he was in Ring of Honor. In ROH he was such a risktaker that the fans would chant "Please don't die" during his matches. Last I saw, the only thing unique about him was his backflip dropkick. It was the only thing he retained from his time in the independents. Now you could state that he receives a bigger paycheck so why take as many risks? But what about Booker T? In WCW, he was the man, a great wrestler with tremendous potential. When he entered WWE, he was reduced to a dreadlocked spineroonied Rock clone overnight.

Ultimo Dragon was another example. Within weeks of his debut in 2004, Linda McMahon had the nerve to publicly state that he wasn't adapting well to the WWE style. Who cares that his wrestling was as good or better than most of the roster. Dragon was punished for his cutting edge wrestling by being booked in more and more abbreviated matches, and had to be satisfied with a spot on the lower tier. It's not surprising that his WWE stint was brief; WWE wanted him to do less and Dragon wasn't willing to sacrifice his art.

That is what it comes down to; art. Last I saw, WWE was continuing to lose their grasp of the term. I have no reason to believe anything has changed in the year or two since I last caught a WWE broadcast. You might think that ignorant, but WWE has insulted me and let me down too often in the past.

You're right, TNA is not perfect. In terms of pure workrate however, WWE cannot compare. I'm even sure that McMahon himself would not argue the point. Many agree with me, to judge from the "This is awesome" chants regularly heard on TNA PPVs.

Hmmm...for the most part, I don't have much to argue about with you.

On this particular point, however, I beg to differ.

If you had been watching at all, you would have seen that the " restraints " have been removed from a lot of the guys. Evan Bourne is one of the most exciting, high flying risk takers in ANY form of wrestling. I would be willing to put him up against any of the performers you could name in TNA and he would definitely hold his own if not outshine them totally. Rey Mysterio has also been unleashed to do some very innovative and high risk moves. Kofi Kingston is pretty impressive as well. I totally agree with that. TNA may have some great workers, and I won't argue that point. What I will argue, though, is that, at this point, TNA simply doesn't have ENOUGH of them.

You mentioned 7 minute matches and 30 minute talk fests. You also mentioned in an earlier post that most of the exposure to TNA you have gotten is through PPV. Well...I DVR TNA Impact every week. That show is as bad, if not worse, for long pointless promos and shorter matches than WWE ever was. I will not argue the fact that WWE used to be that way. But since you haven't watched in two years, you haven't seen that Vince pretty much realized that his show ( Raw ) was going downhill. Much has been done to solve the problems. It's very rare that you see a really short match anymore, unless it's to give a guy who is supposed to be " dominating " a push.

Watching both Raw and Impact ( I never have been a Smackdown fan, and Vicky Guererro being the GM seals it for me to NOT watch ) I can honestly say that for all it's faults, Raw is still superior to TNA. TNA is closing the gap, but they aren't there yet.

As far as all the " This is awesome " chants on TNA...they have their own stage at Universal Studios. The audience is made up of strictly TNA fans. TNA does not travel nearly as much as WWE. Unless TNA starts doing shows around the country on a consistent basis, it will never become as popular as WWE.

I agree with you on the Evan Bourne point; I watched him a lot in his ROH days, when he was Matt Sydal, and he impressed the hell out of me. I am glad WWE hasn't had him tone down his style, although I hope they don't give in to the temptation to do so in the future. If WWE has improved the way they do things as you say, I perhaps will give Raw or Smackdown another look at some point. I will however remain skeptical for now, until I see proof of this for myself.

Also, I will not argue that a lot of what TNA does is just wrong...Yet it is what TNA does right that causes me to have so much faith in them. Historically speaking, the number-two promotion sometimes tries too hard to mimick WWE in some aspects. WCW was guilty of this ad nauseum, and TNA falls prey to this on occasion as well. I blame Vince Russo for this. His ideas remain stupid at times and it is only when he is censored appropriately that he becomes a benefit. Sadly, I can see his fingerprints on much of what TNA does. Fortunately, TNA is not giving him the amount of power as WCW did. I blame Russo for killing WCW. He is one of those that was directly responsible for the stagnation of the business in the early 2000s.

Personally, I say lock both Russo and Brian Gewirtz into a big iron box and sufficate them with carbon monoxide. A little extreme perhaps, but it wouldn't hurt the wrestling industry.

I may look at WWE again, but sadly, I fear they will always be dead to me. Fortunately, I guess, I have found plenty of alternatives to WWE, many of which weren't present in 2000-01.

im a huge wrestling fan i watch all three brands raw ,smackdown, ecw and of course tna my fav wrestlers are triple h,randy orton,edge,undertaker,mickie james,and melina i like the heels mostly lol did any one catch what happend during the tag match last monday with john morrison, the miz ,rey and kofi when rey dropped kicked john morrison in his back 2 set him up for the 619 morrison had 2 crawl the rest of the way 2 the second rope it looked so fake i kno it is fake but damn still i guess rey didnt drop kick him right so he would land on the rope i think they should have continued the match cuz i just didnt buy that lol

oh i 4got another fav of mine kane

I love all wrestling. My favorites are Cena, Kane, Undertaker, Orton, Jeff and Matt Hardie.