http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZWqQNRAoKY&feature=channel_page

I thought this was interesting given all the debate recently on the topic of gay marriage. Many opponents of gay marriage claim its a sinfull choice to be gay.

For us non you tubers...could you elaborate please?


Funny this should appear, when only last evening... the evolution of homosexuality was discussed on my back deck by some very informed, well educated people...

Studies...(By anthropologists/sociologists/archeologists) have shown after asking the question, what is the purpose of homosexualality within evolution, when they don't procreate?

Interesting outcomes....

Within early man historical times, when a tribe was completely interdependent on each other for their survival and the survival of their young, it was noted that homosexual men had a purpose, as nurturers and assisted in the survival of the young, in times of low survival rates or populace of women...

...and on the flipside, homosexual women were capable of hunting and warring and able to support the tribe in a 'male' role, at times when there were few males to provide for the tribe.

the basic argument is that homosexuality may make a
population more affectionate and closer...there
is no homo-gene - it is polygenic so it is like
eye color but more complicated

the point is made that there is homosexuality in a
wide variety of animals

the rest is kind of speculative conjecture about
some study evidence linking the probability
of male homosexuality occuring in families depending
on the number of male children - that it might
involve some kind of immune reaction in the mother....

he talks about the fallacy of an ad-hominem attack
eg. "you are wrong because you are ugly.."

Thanks, you!!!!!!

Mwah!

Nice synapse slowhand.

Jess yes you are spot on, but what he didn't touch on much was that the mix of factors could have other evolutionary advantages (outside of the actually behavior of homosexuality), it gets extremely complex dealing with polygenic traits, so I imagine it will be many more years of research before we have conclusive information.

Their is another study that I have failed over and over again to find after initially reading it where there was a gene that had a direct correlation in women to the attraction to masculinity in men and that this gene is present in most gay men, never present in straight men.

There is so much propaganda on the net because of the religious folk and gay folk and there agenda's its hard to find unbiased research so take it all with a grain of salt, pro and con, but my point is that its a subject for research not pointless assertions.

As far as rights go, I see no reason to deny anyone common rights based on gender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LeVay

Here is a researcher that has been working at this topic is some great detail and has made some good progress.

Bump for Eljay or anyone who thinks he has a point.

well for one - there's this:



I agree. Since Don-E-2 is an Evolutionary Biologist, I find it hard to believe he does not have an agenda, and that his research and conclusions are unbiased. In fact, I'll go as far as to say he's blinded by bias. Just another minister of Evolution. Since he provides no evidence of his research, let's pass around that salt shaker shall we, to help swallow those pointless assertions of his.

He presents a ton of information, many of his videos have sources in the side bar, its well documented stuff.

I can say with certainty that other animals display homosexual tendencies. We just received some transgenic mice where I work and I needed to expand the colony so I set up breeding cages. Once the pups are weaned I separate the males and females so I don't get unwanted breedings. I was looking at a cage the other day and noticed a mouse humping another one, the cage was supposed to only house females so I checked it again...yup all female. I've also seen a female sneak up on a male, jump on it's back and start humping away, pretty friggin funny.

The evidence of the numerous observations points out to the following conclusion:

MALE CHILD IS MORE LIKELY TO DEVELOPE THE HOMOSEXIAL TENDENCIES WHENEVER HIS MOTHER HAPPENS TO EXPERIENCE PROBLEMS DURING THE THE 9 MONTHS TERM...

Its rare for an adult male to convert to Homosecxuality, except of when being forced into it (as in prisons). Though, some -- having discovered the male G-spot -- become bi-sexual...

Yeah, I read the same thing some years ago. I also saw a study where rodents exhibited homosexual behaviors after being being kept in crowded conditions.

Yea currently there is no known single "gay gene".

Its a polygenic trait, as are many such traits and not easily identifiable.

Environment and cognitive development have strong ties to genes and what gets expressed when.

I think its a mistake to rule out anything yet.

Some of you might find my essay interesting....

Do biological theories of sexual orientation intensify or mitigate prejudice against lesbians and gay men?

Over the past two decades many researchers have begun to focus their attention on the biological influences of sexual orientation (Veniegas & Conley, 2000). There is now a plethora of exciting research covering diverse areas such as genes (Bailey, 2003; Bailey & Benishay, 1993; Bailey et al., 1993, 2000; Bailey and Pillard, 1995; Bocklandt & Hamer, 2003; Eckert et al., 1986; Macke et al., 1993; Pillard & Weinrich, 1986), hormones (Arnold, 2003; Berenbaum et al., 2000; Cooke et al., 1999; Meyer-Bahlburg, 1984; Titus-Ernstoff et al., 2003), anatomy (Bogaert & Hershberger, 1999; Brown et al., 2002a, 2002b; Lippa, 2003a; Williams et al., 2000) and brain studies (Barch et al., 2003; Byne et al., 2001; LeVay, 1991; McFadden, 2002; Rahman et al., 2003b; Swaab & Hofman, 1990).

According to Bem, (1993) biological theories are considered to be deterministic in that they advocate immutability. In other words, sexual orientation is seen to be beyond the control of the individual. Whilst this maybe true for men, there is little conclusive evidence to suggest this might be the case for women (Baumeister, 2000; Gelder, 1991; Harrison, 1994; Morris & Rothblum, 1999; Whisman, 1996 cited in Veniegas & Conley, 2000). Despite this, public opinion polls show greater levels of endorsement for biological explanations than ever before (Newport, 1998 cited in Veniegas & Conley, 2000). However, there still remains an overwhelming majority who are sceptical (see Haldeman, 1994; Veniegas & Conley, 2000). Could this be held to explain why prejudice against lesbians and gay men still prevails? (see Bem, 1997; Horvath & Ryan, 2003; Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000).

In reality, the extent to which biological theories can be held accountable for the varying levels of prejudice against homosexuals is unclear (Bem, 1997). According to Bem, (1997) the attitudes people form influence beliefs about causality. Attitudes are influenced by factors such as gender belief systems (Deaux & Kite, 1987 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000), authoritarianism (Adorno et al., 1950 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000), social dominance orientation (Pratto et al., 1994), stereotype conformity (Fiske, Lin & Neuberg, 1999), media (Herek, 1990), religiosity (Herek, 1987) and previous exposure to lesbians and gay men (Herek, 1997; Herek & Glunt, 1993 cited in Herek, 1997). With this in mind, it comes as no surprise that attitudes affect the assimilation of biological evidence (Bem, 1997; Hegarty & Pratto, 2001). Thus, the purpose of this essay will be to draw the connection between attitudes and subsequent beliefs about causality in an effort to explain the variance in prejudice against homosexuals.

Homosexuals are often the target of prejudice because they derive their identity from social categorisations that are socially functional and vivid (Hogg and Vaughn, 2002). Prejudice operates cross culturally and manifests itself in even the most isolated of communities (Herek & Capitanio, 1995; Hogg and Vaughn, 2002; Moghaddam, 1998; Whitley and Aegisdottir, 2000). For the most part, prejudice takes the form of verbal abuse, but in extreme cases can lead to murder (Hogg & Vaughn, 2002). Prejudice can be defined in terms of ‘the holding of derogatory social attitudes or cognitive beliefs, the expression of negative effect or the display of hostile or discriminatory behaviour towards members of a group on account of their membership of that group’ (Brown, 1995: p.8). Let us now consider how negative attitudes might affect beliefs about causality.

According to Deaux & Kite, (1987 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000) we live in a society that has very clearly defined gender roles. Heterosexist in its outlook, this belief system provides a set of rules that distinguishes between men and women (Bem, 1993; Fiske, Lin & Neuberg, 1999). Men are viewed as possessing masculine features and women are viewed as possessing feminine features (Deaux & Kite, 1987 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000). Consistent with this form of stereotyping, there is the expectation that individuals should conform to gender appropriate behaviour (Bem, 1993). Unsurprisingly, homosexuals represent a challenge to this ideology (Kite & Whitley, 1998). Heterosexuals often describe gay men as possessing feminine characteristics and lesbians as possessing masculine characteristics (Deaux & Lewis, 1984; McCreary, 1994 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000). In other words, gay men are seen to posses the gender associated characteristics of heterosexual women and lesbians are seen to posses the gender associated characteristics of heterosexual men (Taylor, 1983).

Consistent with Allport’s, (1954 cited in Hogg & Vaughn, 2002) definition of the prejudiced personality, the existence of gender role ambiguity could be held to explain the negative attitudes towards lesbians and gay men (see also Jackson & Cash, 1985; Laner & Laner, 1985 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000). Anti-gay attitudes are often associated with mutable causal beliefs, not immutable ones (Hegarty & Pratto, 2001). Therefore, the mere presence of biological explanations as an alternative to life style choice could in fact intensify prejudice (Bem, 1997). This should come as no surprise when one considers just how salient gender role beliefs are for most people (Bem, 1993). Unfortunately, there is disturbing evidence to suggest that some may even be seeking corrective interventions such as selective abortions and genetic manipulation (Bem, 1997; Burr, 1996). As a logical progression to the discussion, let us now consider attitude formation within authoritarian societies.

Amidst the backdrop of polarized American attitudes, Adorno et al., (1950 cited in Whitley & Aegisdottir, 2000) proposed the concept of an authoritarian society. People high in authoritarianism tend to view individuals as belonging to either an in-group or an out-group. This in effect creates out-group stigmatization (Crocker et al., 1998 cited in Hogg & Vaughn, 2002). Thus, homosexuals are stigmatised because they possess or are believed to posses socially identifiable qualities that are devalued in some way. Conversely, could negative attitudes towards lesbians and gay men reflect the paranoia that sexual orientation is concealable? Perhaps, but it’s more reasonable to assume that anti-gay attitudes derive from the issue of controllability and media depiction (see Herek, 1990; Hogg & Vaughn, 2002).

Taking America as a good example of an authoritarian society, negative attitudes could be nurtured through the sanctioned oppression of stigmatized groups by authority. Indeed, Americans recently voted a ban on same sex marriage in 11 states (Roberts & Gibbons, 2004). Could this be held to reflect the Governments intolerance to homosexuality? After all, successive Presidents often proclaim to be devout Christians, purporting endless ideals of how the ‘good American’ should live. Perhaps Altemeyer, (1996) can provide an explanation. He suggests that the derogation of stigmatized out-groups helps to defend social ideals. In addition, the support for traditional values implies support for the traditional power structures in society. So in effect, authoritarian individuals are both influenced by the actions of government and through the action of themselves. This would go someway to explain the prevalence of strong gender belief systems within authoritarian societies.

As mentioned earlier, lesbians and gay men represent a challenge to traditional sex roles. They represent out-groups relative to the heterosexual norm (Bem, 1993, 1997). Gay communities are advocates of political change and often cite biological theories to support their position (Whitely & Aegisdottir, 2000). Herein lays the problem. Most religious and political leaders in authoritarian societies debunk the argument that biological theories provide an adequate explanation of sexual orientation. The failure by science to provide conclusive evidence has been used by some to advocate that homosexuals have ‘chosen to be that way’ (see Whisman, 1996 cited in Veniegas & Conley 2000). Sadly, this plays into the hands of authoritarian individual’s who in turn then see homosexuals as legitimate targets of prejudice and hostility (Whitely & Aegisdottir, 2000). It could be argued that the negative portrayal of homosexuals in the media has only served to exacerbate the problem (Herek, 1990). Lastly, let us now consider how social dominance orientation influences people’s negative attitudes and beliefs about causality.

Pratto et al., (1994) suggest that members of in-groups have an inherent desire to dominate and be superior to out-groups. In a similar vein to that of the authoritarian perspective, the social dominance position purports that attitudes and gender role beliefs stem from the same source. People high in social dominance orientation try to denigrate members of out-groups and oppose equality enhancing social programs such as equal rights. In effect, this reinforces in-group member’s perception of the status quo (Sidanius, 1993 cited in Whitely & Aegisdottir, 2000). Since homosexuals often have low social status within most Western societies, individuals high in social dominance orientation tend to hold particularly polarized attitudes towards lesbians and gay men (Whitley & Lee, 2000). Furthermore, in-groups legitimize myths that justify their prejudicial attitudes (Sidanius & Pratto, 1993). For example, those that hold the belief that homosexuality is a sin advocate prejudice against lesbians and gay men (Haldeman, 1994; Herek, 1987; Herek & Capitanio, 1995).

Similarly, for the same reasons as for authoritarian societies, people high in social dominance tend not to subscribe to biological theories. There could be a number of reasons for this. Firstly, to believe that sexual orientation is immutable would severely weaken an in-groups ability to legitimize prejudice and uphold the status quo. The very fabric of their ideology would be called into question and for many this would an intolerable situation. Secondly, through fear of being ostracized by one’s own in-group some individuals may choose to ignore biological explanations altogether. For the few that do subscribe to biological explanations, there would be a tendency to reinterpret the findings so that homosexuality could be viewed as some kind of congenital disease thus protecting legitimizing myths (Burr, 1996; Schuklenk, Stein, Kerin & Byne, 1997 cited in Veniegas & Conley 2000). Let us now consider how positive attitudes effect beliefs about causality.

According to Herek, (1997) heterosexuals who have regular and multiple contacts with lesbians and gay men tend to adopt more positive attitudes. In contrast to the authoritarian perspective, gay people are viewed as individuated out-group members. This in effect reduces prejudice because homosexuals are perceived to be unique individuals as opposed to belonging to a monolithic entity (Herek, 1997). Furthermore, heterosexual’s often report more positive feelings when lesbians and gay men have personally disclosed their sexual orientation to them. It could be held that such discussions might lead a heterosexual to conclude that sexual orientation is irrelevant to one’s qualities as a human being (Herek, 1997). This is perhaps the most profound reason as to why prejudice is so low amongst people who have contact with homosexuals (see Bem, 1993, 1997).

Needless to say, people who adopt positive attitudes often subscribe to biological explanations (Bem, 1997). They typically reject the deficiency model of homosexuality and view sexual minorities as falling within the broad spectrum of natural human variation. However, advocates of immutability often find themselves the target of bigoted prejudice because they are seen to be an additional threat to social ideals (Stein, 1994 cited in Veniegas & Conley, 2000). Of course, in light of Herek, (1997) positive attitudes don’t necessarily have to be accompanied by immutable causal beliefs. In the same vein, there are some who believe that biological explanations perpetrate the dichotomization of sexual orientation in terms of homosexual vs. heterosexual (Bem, 1993). Ultimately this leads to a disempowering message which further intensifies prejudice and misunderstanding (Gelder, 1991 cited in Horvath & Ryan, 2003).

In conclusion then, this essay has highlighted some of the mechanisms underlying attitude formation. Generally speaking, biological research appears to have little influence on modifying people’s attitudes towards homosexuality (Bem, 1997). Indeed the reverse seems to be true; people’s existing attitudes appear to influence beliefs about causality (Hegarty & Pratto, 2001). Given the fact that attitudes are notoriously difficult to modify, one could conclude that biological explanations have served to intensify prejudice not reduce it. It is hoped that the reader now has an appreciation of the factors involved and an explanation as to why biological theories might further polarize attitudes. As a final thought, it is important to consider the past role of biological research into human variation. One can look to Nazi Germany as a prime example of when causal explanations are taken to the extreme and used to incite intolerance and draconian public polices (Bem, 1997).

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Cheers

J

I have seen medical pictures of brains of homosexuals, and there is a big difference even visually.

I know many homosexual christians.

Homosexuality is a part of nature and has been here as long as we have had male and female organisms. It is part of the natural biography of organisms. There is nothing wrong with it. It is not a sin of any kind.

Possible purposes for homosexuality could be just the exchange of closeness or connections. Also it serves a purpose in over population for sure.

Only man in his sick wisdom would have made it a sin or wrong. Two creatures of age and consent loving one another, what could possibly be wrong with it?

Considering that mothering nature in homosexual men is not necessarily there and butch or masculinity is not necessarily there for gay women either, I would have to say this conversation may have been flawed. There are very masculine gay men and very feminine gay women.

Its a polygenic trait, that means a vast array of behavior can be effected by the particular combination of genes that influence gay people, there are more then one set of behaviors that map to being gay, same with straight people . . . .

So while you are correct not every gay man is feminine and not every gay woman butch, those types do exist.

Also with such traits for them to be past down doesn't have to make survival since as a single characteristic.

Gay people DO have children, being gay does not prevent MANY people from having children. Evolution is very multifaceted.

A great example is sickle cell. Its not an advantage in an environment with no malaria . . . yet its still here . . . . imagine that.