Where would you like it to go?

That's the real question.

I'll tell you where I would like it to go. I would like to see Christians stand up against unrealistic fundamentalism preached in the name of their religion.

This is a huge problem with the religoin. Probably the biggest problem with it altogether.

When radical fantatical hardcore fundamentalists start preaching bigotry and religious intolerance in the name of the Biblical God. Christians need to stand up against that crap instead of meekly standing behind those idiots just for the sake of supporting "Christianity"

This is where the religion shoots itself in it's own foot.

People are so ready to stand up for the label of "Christianity" that they often do so even when that very act leads to supporting ignorance, bigotry, and religious intolerance.

This is especially true in politics. When controlling fundamentalists want to use the religion to back up their position on topics like teaching creationism in schools, or women's right to make their own medical choices, or anyone's right to choose love without being restricted by gender. And so on.

The bottom line is that "Christians" truly do become the sheep of the hardcore fundies who use the Bible as a weapon to force bigotry and religious intolerance onto the public via political actions and laws.

So yes, I would like to see many Chrsistians stand up and say, "Look. We believe that Jesus said not to judge others, and we're not going to stand for putting religious bigotry into law".

But no, they won't do that. Instead they all line up like nice little obedient sheep to be herded around by the loudmouth fundies who are almost always dredging up crap from the Old Testament and then using Jesus like a rubber doll to beat those bigoted views over the heads of others.

Like as if Jesus would even approve of those concepts.

Jesus denounce the stoning to death of sinners (that was a well-established law of the God of Abraham). The Jews were still obeying that law of God in Jesus day!

Yet, Jesus denounced that law.

The God of Abraham also commanded people to seek revenge via an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Well, Jesus say, no, don't do that, instead turn the other cheek and forgive those who trespass against you.

So why are these fundies dredging up old laws from the Old Testament and then using Jesus to support them?

There if FAR LESS in the Bible about same gender love, than there is about the fact that Women should not speak out on religious matters or matters of importance.

Yet what do the Christians do?

They use the Old Testament to denounce same-gender relationships in Jesus Name. And all the while Christian woman are running at the mouth preaching and proselytizing the religion.

It's hypocritical.

And you ask me where I'd like to go with this, it's quite simple. I'd like to see people who truly believe in Jesus to denounce this bigoted crap that the religious right spews in the name of Jesus.

People who worship Jesus truly need to rip the Bible in half and toss the Old Testament in a burn barrel.

In fact, they should cast out the New Testament as well, save for only the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

If they only had that to work with they'd soon be unable to judge other people. Just like Jesus had preached.

Yes, I'm sick and tired of watching Christians use Jesus like a rubber doll to beat the bigotry of the Old Testament over the heads of people who don't believe in the Bible.

Jesus didn't support the OT.

That's crystal clear.

hmmm?

get a grip james, jesus most certainly did support the OT laws, he said so.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


jot and tittle meaning not even the most minute part of the law shall pass away.

This is where Christians are truly blind. They just accept that the gospels are the verbatim words of Jesus himself. But they aren't.

Jesus was long since dead by the time the gospels were written. They are more than likely filled with demagogurey.

That's my whole position Sam.

So when you quote the Bible of what Jesus said it's meaningless to me because most of it is most likely demagogurey from the authoritarians who used a dead Jesus as their Marionette doll to revitalize their own version of a dying religion.

They certainly wanted you to believe that it was Jesus who said those things. And clearly they've pulled the wool over the eyes of the masses because that's precisely how most Christians believe. They cherish ever word like as if it came from the mouth of Jesus.

But it clearly didn't.

Jesus was crucified the first time on the cross.

He was crucified a second time when his martry status was used by authoritarians to create the gospels that people today believe are the words of Jesus.

No God could be as disgusting as the Bible claims Sam. It simply isn't possible.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus lusts to be the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and have every knee bow to him and ever tongue confess that he is Lord?

What do you think God is?

And egotistical pig?

Why would the creator of this universe lust to be worshiped and served by a bunch of totally pathetic unworthy humans (that what the Bible claims we are!).

Clearly the story makes no sense at all.

What kind of a God would not be able to forgive sins without first being appeased by a blood sacrifice?

Yet this is what the Bible claims the God of Abraham is like.

Christians say, "With God All Things are Possible"

EXCEPT! God can't forgive sins unless he's appeased by a blood sacrifice.

Hell, even humans can forgive without being appeased with a blood sacrifice.

God couldn't just forgive men?

Doesn't that fly in the face of the idea that with God all things are possible?

Moreover the Crucifixion was God's idea, not man's. Jesus was supposedly born of a virgin for the express purpose of being the sacrificial lamb of God. Any attempt to prevent the crucifixion would be an attempt to reject the will of God.

The men who nailed Jesus to the cross would have being doing God's will!

It was God's idea to appease himself so he could forgive man of his sins.

I don't know about you Sam, but from my point of view this is most absurd mythology every written by mankind.

And it's most CERTAINLY not the first that has Gods who demand blood sacrifices. That was common in Greek Mythology too as well as all other Mediterranean mythologies and even mythologies from around the world. But all the different Gods wanted to be appeased for different reasons and they had different laws, etc. So they can't all be from the creator of this universe.

I put it to you; what is the chance that the real creator of this universe would just coincidentally be appeased by blood sacrifices just like almost every other manmade mythology.

I don't believe any real divine being would be appeased by blood scrifices, and I also don't believe that any real divine being would have ever asked men to nail his son to a pole so he could find it in himself to forgive them of their sins.

You think I need to get a grip?

These people who think that God is truly like the Bible claims need to get a grip.

If the bible is true, God is truly one sick puppy. Not only is he a self-confessed jealous God at the beginning of the Old Testament, but he also lusts to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords over his own creation. A creation that a fallen angel seems to have the upper hand in, by the way. This same book claims that Satan wins the vast majority of souls that the biblical God creates.

That's supposed to be a great picture of a God?

Please.

Surely even the Christians themsleves would have to jump for joy and celebrate if they were to discover that the entire Bible is a lie.

That would mean that God doesn't lust for blood sacrifices. It would mean that mankind didn't fall from grace from his creator. It would mean that God never told anyone to stone sinners to death or murder heathens. It would mean that no one is guilty for the death of Jesus other than the men who actually murdered him!

What's not to celebrate?

Who in their right mind would WANT the Bible to be true?

Seriously?

Who would want such a horrific picture of God and humanity to be true?

And if we don't want it to be true, then why are we believing it on PURE FAITH?

Why would we place our FAITH in a horrific story that we truly hope is not true?

There are MUCH BETTER pictures of God to place your faith in.

happy turkey day james!!

Another thing to think about

Why do so many people turn against this God?

Supposedly a full third of God's angels turned against God when Satan fell from grace.

Why are so many angels displeased with God's heaven?

If a third of God's angels weren't happy in God's heaven then why should humans think they'll be happy there?

Maybe one of ever 3 people who go to heaven won't be happy there?

That's something to seriously consider.

What's so wrong with God's heaven that even the angels didn't like it?



The Bible is like a story of a God who has bad breath or something. Nobody seems to like him and the only way he can get people to love him is to threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't love him.

That's truly a sad picture of a God.

I mean, if you read this story as pure fiction you'd probably feel sorry for this poor God who can't get anyone to love him or do as he says.

There must be something majorly wrong with him.

As a fatherly figure he seems to only know how to be mentor by using threats.

Hells bells, I know mortal men who make better fathers than that.

The biblical picture of God is not a good example of a fatherly image at all. On the contrary it could be used as a textbook example of how NOT to raise your childern.

Clearly, asking them to slaughter animals to appease you everytime they misbehave sends a terrible message and does nothing toward productive contructive mentoring.

It's just not a picture of a 'wise' fatherly image at all. It a better of example of how not to raise your children. It's a very unwise picture of a fatherly image.

Man, I do not support your conclusions, but some of what you say is truth and needs to be said, if for no other reason then to continue dialog from both sides of a very important issue.

Thanks Sam. I hope you have a happy holiday too!

I drove over to town tonight and I was thanking my car the whole way home. Seriously, I was reciting poetry to it, someting like the following.

You're my Dodge Interpid
You're old but not decripid
You're such a beautiful dependable car
You take me near and far
I love you for being who you are.



Yes really, I talk to my car.

And I didn't even realize that it was Thanksgiving.

It's problematic....

http://mingle2.com/topic/show/183324

wow, that hasn't happened in a while...
double post double post

I know.

I'm a vile disgusting person.

I hang my head in shame.

I would actually love to support the Jesus I believe in.

But there's no way that I'm going to support the whole Mediterranean biblical picture from the word go.

Like you say, the vile crap I post has to be said.

I'm surrendering myself up as the vile pig who has been choosen to say it.

And I truly do apologize to the innocent bystanders who don't understand why I'm doing it.

Man, abracadabra I find some of your conclusions absolutely reprehensible, but the fact that you can keep this dialog going is commendable. People need to talk, especially with people who are on the other side of an issue. If you only listen to one side of an argument then you are a fallower, and religious people especially could benefit from this dialog, I mean you really are playing devils advocate in the real world, I think this is a valuable exchange.

Well, I know some people thing that I'm emotionally angry or that I get emotionally upset with other people.

Truly I don't.

I may get 'frustrated' about the topic itself, but I don't get emotionally attached to the dialogs.

As soon as I'm done typing I turn around and do something else entirely different with no emotional attachment at all to what has previously been said.

And you're right, I am the devil's advocate. I could go through the Old Testament and find lot of really great stuff to say about the biblical picture of God. There are good things in there too.

But that's irrelavent. The only point that I'm truly trying to make is that it can't all be the word of God. Some of it is truly dispicable and clearly did not come from God.

Christians need to realize that the entire Bible just can't be the word of God.

Of course, that flies in the face of the very religion.

I don't believe that the religion can be salvaged to be quite honest about it. This is why I moved on a totally different pagan picture of God.

I still see it as worshiping the creator of this universe. I just see it as a more positive picture of both God and humanity.

I probably shouldn't even post my disagreement with the biblical picture of God. But I feel compelled to do it for some reason. And I'm not even sure why. In some ways it does seem like a total waste of time.

Maybe it's a total "waist" of time and your the belt that keeps the pants up -