I believe in a determined will. The will is determined by our own perception of actuality, which I call personal truth.

If the will is free then what is the will "free" from?

Influence? I do not think so.

All choice is determined by an outside influence of some kind. Taking action without any prior thought? That would be reflex, and it is far from being "free".

Has the history of human knowledge concerning tools not proven that our actions and ideas are built upon one another?



Where is the evidence that the will is "free"?

Simply stating that one can make a decision does not at all support the claim that that decision was made "free" from influence.

If a thing is influenced, then how can that thing be considered "free"?

The term "free will" was invoked to acquit the 'God' of Abraham from the accusation of creating evil.

No thing is "free" from influence, including the human will...

I should say "Welcome!" to all the new people.

Enjoy yourselves here...

Concerning "free" will, from another perspective...

What elements of actuality combined to produce the situation, any situation, in which a choice is being made?

Is it still not determined by anything?

Do you not need to know of a choice in order to be able to make it?



Ok... I am through now...



Live... Learn... Laugh... Love...

well by that definition I would say the word free is useless.

All things are interconnected, nothing is free from everything else. Or it would be unity.

I think just like everything you must define what it is free in relation to.

If a decision is yours and only yours to make, you can choose to make the wrong decision for the right reason, or the right decision for the wrong reason, or choose to abstain from choosing . . . then that is freedom of choice.

Reductionism does not work with all things. To reduce is normally to make clear, to separate out from the weeds . . . not so with some topics.

Just because a tool is formed from a mold does not mean it can only be used for one thing.

You are free to try, even though its form was never free, and its function was set the day the die was cast, it is still possible to buck the system and make a use that was not envisioned.

Are any of us free? . . . I don't know, I know from the perceptive of a ray of light none of us are . . . . from lights vantage point all actions ever taken are simultaneous. There is no cause and effect. The universe was born the same moment I wrote this, the same moment we asked the question, the same moment in time that never goes by, the same moment the universe ended all at once, or none at all. All movement through space, none through time.

But that is only one frame from another . . . . physicists say there is no absolute frame of reference . . . but maybe light has it . . . . who knows.

Maybe not even god . . . if it even exists.

How are you doin' Billy?




The concept of a "free" will is a curious thing indeed.

Is the term "free" useless, in and of itself?

I think that there uses for it, just not describing the independence of a thing's existence.

If a thing has no financial cost... is that "free"? I would think so.

In that regard, I suppose our will is "free". That does not address the nature of the concept though.

The recognition of the fact that the will is not "free" from influence holds significance in my thoughts for many reasons, most of which surround one main idea, for which it is the key.

An accurate understanding of the nature of humanity.

Ok, tis appears this topic has run it's course for me... a little too heavy on the Democritus of Abdera and a little too light on the tensor field calculus. "Aut disce aut discede".

It seems to me the only answer to that question is: "determinism".

Isn't that what the whole issue boils down to? A belief in either determinism or free will?

All else is dependent on that one issue as far as I can tell.

Interstingly enough, that is the exact same reason I use for believing in free will.

Go figure.

I am doing great, thanks for asking Creative, how are you?

Well I mean to say the word free without a qualifier is useless. Free in relation to what? When you stated "a financial cost", that puts in the context necessary to use the word.

Saying something is free but without giving a specific would be useless.

There are many sayings crass and otherwise that list how things without financial cost are still not free . . . hehe.

Free will, the word will is not specific enough to be a qualifier.

___________________________

I think we have kinda got away from the OP with our ongoing discussion of free will, I blame Sky!!!!!!

Not that I have not enjoyed it.

Hey, don't blame it on me. I had no choice in the matter. It was predestined by the deterministic universe!!!

I am using my free will to get this thread back on topic! (Or was I predestined to always make this decision? Hmmm.)

So I guess I'll have to use my free will to start a new thread for the off-topic. (Or was that decision determined by Billy blaming the OT on me?)

When the heart of a fetus beats for the very first time, where does the energy come from to make it first pump. Or what turns on the brain of a fetus and jump starts those electric impulses?

The Complete formation of the AV node .. its like the natural pacemaker .. its one of those unexplained things about the human body .

and that whole thing about memory not going away .. you should have stoped yourself right there.. cuz dwelling to deep in the imagination will just give u a headache .. memory is stored \in your brain .. im not going to explain how .. cuz thats going to take forever .. but i will say that the "harddrive" you're referring to decomposes with the rest of you once u kick the bucket .... even hard disks on a comp go bad sometime .. thats what defragmenting is for .. until humans come up with that type of stuff for people .. don't bother asking such superfluous questions :D

Back to the equation in question...
Some nice lattice QCD calcs of vacuum fluctuations!!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations.html

Hahahaha....maybe your memory is stored in your brain....


but these arms remember the weight of my first born....these ears remember that first cry.... these lips remember it's first kiss.... this nose remembers the scent of all my people...

maybe your brain is the file cabinet for you..... however my whole body remember THIS human experience... and my heart remembers ALL of the spiritual experiences it has had.

The brain is the back up electric mains as far as I am concerned, and has no real bearing on memory.... the memories of me.

Bravo Skyhook

The will (self-determinism) is always present. The question of whether it is "free" or not is a moot point.

The term "free will" alone makes me cringe. It implies that you can put "the will" into bondage. You can't.

Spirit is free.

You can place bondage on the body and even on the mind, but the spirit is always free.

It is only people who identify with the body and the mind (as self) who believe and conceive that the will is something that can be manipulated by others. It can't.

But for those who don't acknowledge or recognize self as a spiritual entity, they will always speak in terms of "free will" and imply that a person can lack "free will" or that the will can be placed in bondage because they think they can harness and control the will. It can't be done.

Anytime you place a person in bondage of body and mind, don't delude yourself into thinking that you have placed them, as spirit, under your control. That is an illusion.

jb

You experience muscle memory, but that does not make the memory come from the muscles, all experiences are filtered through the perception that the brain generates.

______________________________

As far as free will goes, and defending my statement that the jury is still out.

It all has to do with reference frames.

IF the universe is really in a super position of every state at every moment and we really do just experience time, then free will does not exist in the sense that we would like it, that is becuase all things all moments have already been written.

Physics cannot say whether this is true or not, some physicists believe it is . . . . I hold my belief in reserve just like I do of other ambiguous things . .

Some biologist think that all behavior can be determined via genetics . . . I don't know enough to even have an opinion, so again . . . ambiguous things don't get ruled on in my perception as to belief.

If its soo important for you to make a leap of faith that is fine, in fact more then fine I endorse your right to do so!!! BRAVO!

I also wish to state that the here and now is all that matters from THIS frame of reference, and in the here and now I get to choose to go get some pancakes at IHOP.

Cya guys.


Jeremy.

The will (self-determinism) is always present. The question of whether it is "free" or not is a moot point.

The will is just the will. It is either weak or strong. Yes we are influenced. If we are overly influenced you might say that our will is weak. If we influence others you might say our will is strong. The will is simply self-determinism.

__________A T T E N T I O N____________________

Gentlemen, frankly, I'm surprized at you:

YOU'VE STARTED A GREAT DISCUSSION ABOUT NATURE OF UNIVERSE
and got side-tracked by SIMPLE SEMANTICS -- free will, etc...

For the sake of the argument, it will be much more reasonable to substitute the terms:

*--> I propose: Instead of "FREE WILL", use RANDOM ELEMENT * * *

*** Then the definition would be more acceptable:

* * *THE UNIVERSE IS DETERMINISTIC BUT INCLUDES A RANDOM ELEMENT! * * *

...O'K, Jeremy, from this standpoint, you were saying. . .

Is the human mind anything more than a chemical binary computer? All actions or decisions can be boiled down to a binary decision. A computer can do many seemingly complex things, but everything is the result of a voltage or no voltage decision. But even the biggest fastest super computer makes no decisions of it's fruition. It acts as a result of outside stimuli in form of electric, users, and programs and is limited by it's hardware. If it were possible to understand all the outside stimuli and the limits of our individual biology could this negate the role of free will?

How is that only humans are thought to have free will? Galaxies and planets follow predictable paths and behaviors. We don't understand all of those behaviors or paths, but no one suggests they have free will. We can study insect and animal colonies and explain many of the behaviors as something other than free will. Perhaps a higher species could study us and come to similar conclusions about us. Maybe animals and insects believe they possess free will? Maybe it is a matter of not seeing the forest through the trees.