Its just more fun to dig at people's weakness in all honesty. Also, we tend to project what we perceive as our own shortcomings or default of character onto others.

Ok.... I have several points to make... and I will be squeezing them into down times in my schedule over the next day or so....


The first thing I will address is the preception that individuals that have about those deemed dependent on welfare are lazy.

1st - to respond to quikstepper
Welfare is still viewed as shameful for most americans. Research shows that most individuals that are on welfare are only on it for a year or short time period. However most return after some point in time. Those that are cyclical on welfare aren't cyclical b/c of being on welfare, they are cyclical/generational b/c of the cycle of poverty. Even if there wasn't a federal welfare system, their would still be generations of poverty. If takes great effort (and a lot of help from God just my opinion) to lift yourself from extreme poverty and earn an income above the poverty level, let alone become middle and upper class.

2nd - point those that are seen as lazy or dependent or using the system live in extereme poverty. The poverty line in the US needed to be raised years and years ago. Along with that minium wage needed to be raised a long time ago also! It is easy for individuals that have lived decent lives or have grown up having food and shelter to say that those people are lazy. However, if you can't eat a meal that day are you going to be able to concentrate in school in order to get good grades. Let alone if you graduate, how are you going to know how to go to college if no one is able to explain to you the steps you need to do. Yes, it is easy to say in our day and age everyone should know how to apply to go to college, however there are still individuals that don't know. It is sad and breaks my heart everyday!

more to come.....




And to address the fence sitting and snub my nose at different points of view....

I am a social worker through and through... so one aspect of my personality is that most people will have no clue what my stand is (because when you see clients person perspective/bias aren't shown) however, when I do have something to say 'everyone will know'

As I mentioned in another thread... I am a walking contradiction.

I am an advocate for gay rights, but value family values. However, not the family values defined by christian conservatives, I believe that a family consists of individuals including but not limited to same-sex couples. Usually the question that is asked of me when I tell them I am an advocate for gay rights is 'are you a lesbian or bi?' No, I am not. I am also a christian, I am a member of the United Methodist Church. I recognize that my personal values do not also match with that of the UM church or christian ideals in general. In the past I was gathering signatures for the marriage proposal in michigan for it to state 'one man and one women'. Would I support that now? No! Would I have supported it 2 years before doing that? No! Do I feel that anyone should be discriminated for any reason? No! But I have attended a neo-nazi party before. I have friends from all different races, cultures, religions and belief systems. I love people for who they are, where they come from and I embrace every story that people have to tell!

Yes, there are times that I may not agree with someone's point of view or someone else may not see why I disagree or see certain things in a situation. One example, on Halloween I post a thread called social class and halloween. I had one person respond. And that response was maybe I was reading too much into it. However, just a few minutes ago, I explained the story to a friend and she completedly saw what I saw in the situation.

I don't ever expect to agree with everyone or have everyone agree with me. I listen openly to all ideas, concepts, beliefs, etc. If they are valid and fair, I will incorporate them into my life or belief system. If they are faulty, biased, or -ism then I won't. However, certain things that I feel strongly about I will speak up!


And noteworthly notion is that when I come onto this site, I am here for my down time. Most of the time I am making sarcastic jokes or not being serious because my life and pursuit of my career is so serious. I am focused on my calling and where ever that takes me.

Please don't take any of the above as a defensive reaction, because it is just one part of my elaborate and complex point that I am trying to make about perception and political views. So just bare with me.

Facts about Tanya:
1.Sexiest girl in curlers I know.
2.Lives in Detroit,MI. I know where, but that's for me to know.
3.Her son is cute and adorable. He's 5 and is everything to her.
4.She loves chocolate from Hebert's candy.
5.She has more jobs then I do:
a.student in social work field
b.internship in social work field
c.work in social work field
d.single mommy
6.Guys flock to her in regular intervals of every 3-4 weeks and then leave her alone for 3-4 weeks.
7.She has a complicated bff.
8.Late-night owl sometimes
9.loves the internet and chatting
10.Sexiest girl in curlers I know.

Facts about welfare:

1.It sucks for 90% of the people on it to go to the office and get their check. The other 10% ride up in their pimped out Chrysler 300M.
2.I believe that a person should earn their welfare check and not just be given it. In MA you MUST be attempting to get a job to continue on welfare. They'll even pay for training.
3.It doesn't matter if you're white,black,hispanic,asian,middle eastern,indian or eskimo it's should be there to support you in your time of need.

So let me give you the short of it...

I have my values...then there are many people who came into my life BEFORE it became some politically correct sob story propagated by the govt. for their own sake & not ours. I don't hate people or snub anyone & never did. I don't consider anyone a friend who would expect me to comprimise my beliefs to be their friend. I am also not so arrogant to say I never did this thing or that thing but I will say I never expected govt. to support my decisions, those that would affect society as well as create more govt.

Just like some people say "I wouldn't have an abortion but believe it's a person's personal choice (or right to choose);" I have the right to say, not only for religious purposes, but more so I don't believe homosexuality is the norm & therefore should not be treated as something mainstream.

The real decline of the traditional family was welfare as well as no fault divorce. That was a govt. set up that created an entire underclass & there's no getting around that. That also doesn't make it right to introduce abnormal behaviors to children as the norm like some fad of the day.

As far as welfare goes, I never said anything about people being lazy...you keep bringing up that assumption.

From all the referendums that passed, I would say that most people, minorities included, are traditional & conservative in their values as well. So what does that say about your theory?

I would say that everyone has their own personal truth and I am not here to judge that. If you have the personal belief that homosexuality is wrong, so be it. If you feel that welfare and no-fault divorce ruined family values, so be it. I, on the other hand, have formed my belief set of social values and policies on personal experience and valid research. However, I recognize that not all individuals do that. I would never tell someone they were in their belief set or opinions are wrong, however if they are stating something as fact, I will be the first to bring on up opposing information or research about the subject. So then it is up to the viewers/readers to make a decision.

I was having a discussion early with a collegue of mine about me starting this thread. I summarized it this way..... in terms of welfare policy and poverty.

Povery is what is cyclical..... not welfare. Poverty and all related issues are what needs to be addressed.


No amount of welfare reform is going to change it. Yes, welfare rolls have decreased but has pushed more people especially children into further into poverty.



However, the point I wanted to make, whether people want to admit it or not, they don't think very highly of individuals that receive welfare benefits from the state.

I will not justify any of it but currently I am on food stamps, medicaid for my son, plan first (covers women's reproductive health) and day care assistance.

I work 20 hours a week, internship (unpaid 16 hours), 15 credit hours college (5 credits of which is my internship), co-president of a student organization which last year I wrote the constitution for, McNair scholar, undergraduate researcher, single mother (with no support from father), preparing to go to graduate school, and with all this I some how main to keep my sanity. And because I am struggling financial, I am considering doing all this and work full time. However, I feel guilty as it is not being able to spend the amount of quality time with my son.

I had my son when I was 23 years old. I was going to college full time and working a full and part time job at the time. My son has had medical insurance from the state all his life. And when I was in a car accident when I was 7 1/2 months pregnant and the person totalled my car; I had to go on full welfare benefits.


So for those that still don't get the concept of poverty.... this back to your worse day(s) ... when you lost your job... and had a couple months before you found a new one.... or when life was hitting you hard and felt depressed. Think about the low of the low when nothing would go your way, this is what it is like everyday for millions of americans in poverty. It doesn't matter how hard they try but it just doesn't work. Now I don't expect you to understand, if you have never experienced it. But I just ask you to try even for a second to put yourself into someone else's shoes.


I'll leave you all with one last story. My good friend Traci, raises two of her nephews. She lives in the hood. You know the neighborhood that middle class won't go into unless they are buying drugs. Where most of the yards are not kept up and there is at least one abandoned house on each block. She, her sister, and I threw a bday party for her nephew for about 15 kids. I have more respect for single parent black females than any other person from that experience. And these are the individuals that have a double whammy when it comes to be the lowest on life's totem pole... when it comes to jobs, wages, and resources. I spent a lot of time this summer with traci. Black females make the most out of nothing! So if they need a little help feeding their babies or paying the bills, they should get it!

have a cute kid who just started school,outspoken ,wear glasses,pray,support the troops and work/go to college.

Well I base most of my observations from people I knew throughout the years.

I don't put too much stock in the sort of research that is being put out today...it's too skewed politically correct...after all, they have to justify the money they recieve.

I just know what I've seen throughout the years firsthand. I also know someone who was a social worker in the welfare system. She told me how the govt. tore the family apart with their so called "formula" for what makes a "poverty level" criteria. She's REALLY liberal too & she agreed with me on that one.

Like I said... I think they need to concentrate on things that will keep families together & not apart, more than gay issues.

Welfare has changed over the years. It is no longer long-term. Each state has a different time limit. I'm not sure what it is but I believe it's usually under 5 yrs. You have to be pursuing an education or a job while on it too.

It is a helping hand and not a hand-out.

The current system actually pushes recipents off welfare into minium wage, dead end jobs.

You know, what gets me more than the issue of Welfare is the way that people sometimes view those "minimum wage, dead-end jobs." If a person begins a job with that mindset, that a job is "dead end" then there is a good chance that is exactly how they'll both view it and work it--a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts. I understand people feeling that way to some point but there are other ways of looking at it.

At 13 I had a paper route and earned about 75 bucks a month. It was an early look at responsibility and making sure that people got their paper, six days a week, on time and dry. (Hey, I live in WA, wet papers made people cranky.)

I had a route through most of Jr. High and High School because it allowed me a bit of spending money while at the same time allowing me enough time to study and be a part of some of the school programs I really loved.

After high school I could not afford to go to college so I started working at a fast food place the day after I graduated. My job: Show up at 4:00 AM and clean six grease fryers, pick up the parking lot, empty trash and clean bathrooms. The pay: $3.10 per hour.

But the best thing about working there was that it was VERY big motivator for me not to want to stay. I knew that I could only go so far there and so I worked my A** off to get some experience and then move on. But again, the work ethic it instilled was good for me. Being told what to do is never fun--it's even less fun when at 17 I knew everything and had a "better" way of doing things. Surprisingly, they did not care nor did they want to hear my ideas. They wanted me to clean the fryers.

Through the years after that (I stayed in fast food for about two years total) I started working in landscaping (hard work but more $$ and more experience) and eventually was able to go to school--at least part-time.

Moving from there, I started working at a resort in Olympic National Park and started as a housekeeper. Nine years later, I was the General Manager and Human Resource director. That could have been a dead-end job but I made a goal to stay with it until I had advanced.

I work now for a hospital where I am a director of Emergency Preparedness and work in Environmental Safety and Sanitation. I enjoy my work and it pays decently. I am fortunate and I am grateful that I have today the things and experiences that I have.

But when asked which job has taught me the most, I always go back to the minimum wage, dead-end job of working with grease fryers. It was a huge motivator and it has helped me to remember 1. I can always do that type of work when and if I need to and 2. That I never wanted to settle, to just get by.

My point here is not to malign those on Welfare or to spotlight my own accomplishments. Compared to some, my accomplishments are very modest. No, my point was to point out that low-paying dead-end jobs don't always HAVE to be dead-end. They can (and often do) serve to help people move on to better things. They can motivate and inspire and if nothing else, they can pay some bills while one is looking for an preparing for something better.

-Drew

That's a great story drew.

However, for most women there is a glass ceiling in minium wage dead end jobs and no matter how hard they work they will not be prompted.

Drew,

I can relate to what you are saying.

But..you were young when this happened. These people are older and have children. Minimum wage cannot support a family.
It's even difficult for a single adult to live on that income.

And I'm pretty sure that those jobs don't have health insurance.

yes. Most do not have health insurance or affordable good health insurance. That is one reason why they are considered dead end jobs b/c they don't provide benefits and most of the time there is very little advancement or wage increases.

Ok, Drew told his story, now I will tell mine.

I AM a woman. I have experienced life in a dead-end job at minimum wage.

I will start with this: I went to an Arab country for a "visit" with my children an my Arab husband. I have not seen my Arab son for 7 years. I was promised that he could come home with me, but when I arrived in that country, I was told otherwise.

When I came back, I felt torture. I thought I had lost it until my mother took my pictures away from me and told me to get it together. I did.

I still had my older son with me here in the US, and as a single mother, worked jobs with very little pay while attending a community college. I graduated, still working my A** off, and went on to a University for Accounting/Finance. Before I went to this University, I married again, eventually had 2 little girls, found out that my husband had done unmentionable things to little girls in the past, went through all I had to just to ensure that wouldnt happen to my little girls, and all the while, still striving for better.

I have since owned two companies and am well on my way as far as accomplishments go.

No one can tell me that it is impossible to be a single parent to work while having children to care for and eventually advance.

I am living proof. Nothing irritates me more than the "oh, poor me" pitty party of lazy people (not just mothers or even single parents for that matter) that are too arrogant to work themselves to the bones to make a better life for them and their family. No one is above it and life's treasures should not be handed on a silver platter.

Tina

Good for you Tina!!!! I think that is what Drew was getting at...that it's all about our outlook. Negative outlooks are a disaster for anyone but postitive ones help us advance.

Best to you dear girl.

One more thing: As a business owner, I can tell you first-hand that raising minimum wage is not the answer.

If minimum wage is raised, I will have to raise my prices. I will not only have to raise them enough to make up the difference in the wage cost to me (for my employees), I will also have to raise them due to the extra overhead I will now have to pay because every other company I receive services or buy supplies from has now raised their prices as well. Now, we are creating an exponential increase in cost just because people say they can't live on a minimum wage rate, when in actuality the amount of spending power they would have at the current minimum wage rate is greater than if minimum wage rate were increased.

Tina

Look, I'm not going to make a stupid comment based on the notion that women are now treated with perfect equality in the workplace and that there does not still exist an old-boy network in some places. That said, I work along side some incredibly smart and capable women, some are doctors, some ARNPs and some Physician Assistants. At one point in their lives they might have been told that there were glass ceilings they needed to duck to avoid banging their heads on but if they were--they ignored the warnings and went out and accomplished everything they wanted leaving such celings a pile of shattered glass.

I work with too many women who make very good money and are very educated to believe that there is no hope or chance for women today. I have personally promoted many women while at jobs that allowed me those opportunities and have done so based on merit and quality of work.

I think in some ways you've convinced yourself that there is no hope in low paying dead-end jobs and that without a chance for promotion, the prospects are even more frustrating.

That type of reasoning sounds like a pretty good and well insulated way to stay right where you are. If you truly believe that there is no point in working to create a dream then you've given yourself every reason needed to stay right where you are.

-Drew

Winx,

I do understand what you are saying but having children is a choice and that choice (more than most) carries with it responsibilities. I have chosen to work on my career and forego having a family. I have made that decision and am OK with the result of having done so. As for my being younger when this all happened--well, yes, that is true but it really isn't the point. I have worked hard both while younger and as I've gotten older.

I also want to be clear that I while I agree that it is tough to live on minimum wage, that is sort of part of the point as it relates to working past such wages. Increasing minimum wage is the worst thing we could do (artificially inflating the value of work would simply cause an artificial rise in prices for goods and services, in essence zeroing out any gain) but I hope that people will continue to (regardless of their current circumstances) look for ways to better their lives and conditions.

It is not easy and I recognize that not everyone can become a surgeon or an accountant--but I fear that a lot of people have become very effective sales-personnel. They have sold themselves on the notion and idea that their lot in life is, by some decree, set; and that attempts to better themselves are dreams not worth pursuing. That to me is very, very sad!

-Drew