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| Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge | |
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The bottom line is that the universe is indeed quantized. But in a very strange way. The so-called 'particles' apparently behave as waves on the quantum level. However, the problem with this is that waves are spread out over spacetime, whereas particles are located at a point. Where the problem comes into play is that at the quantum level a given 'particle' must be BOTH a wave and a particle simultaneously. That means that it must be BOTH spread out over spacetime, AND localized at a point. The problem is best understood via the double-slit experiment. This is also known as the problem of the 'collapse of the wave function'. When a particle isn't being measured (which simply means not interacting with atoms), a particle is spread out over a wide area of space. However, when it interacts it must do so at very localized point. The question then becomes, "How does this wave know which point will be the point of interaction?" It can't know ahead of time, and that's the crux of the problem right there. How do you allow for the wave to know what's going to happen ahead of time without endowing it with 'faster than light' perception and reaction? But once you allow for that, you've given up cause and effect. It appears to be a lose-lose situation. You have to allow for superluminal communication. But as soon as you do that it's the same as saying that it can't be explained using the physics that we are used to. (i.e. Cause and effect has to take a hike) But you are right. It's definitely the wave-particle duality that's the problem. To explain it you must explain how a quantum entity can be both localized and non-localized at the same time. And you must do this without violating our cherished law of cause and effect. If you give up cause and effect don't be do excited about your result because someone else had probably already given those kinds of explanations. There are actually quite a few 'explanations' that violate physics. None of them are truly satistifying. The most common one just says that things happen randomly. (i.e. no cause, just random effects). This is the one that is the most popular and Einstein didn't like. However, the EPR experiment seems to fly in the face of it being totally random because of quantum entanglement which just makes the problem even more tenacious. Another solution is that our universe is interacting with parallel universe that are almost identical in every way save for a few atoms here and there. That idea actually salvages cause and effect, but in order to salvage it, it requires an infinity of almost identical universes. In fact, it requires that the universe is 'splitting' into infinitely many new universes every fraction of a second on the quantum scale. We're talking about so many universes being created with every atomic interaction that it's beyond our wildest comprehension. All that just to save cause and effect. 
There are actually other explanations. More 'reasonable' ones. I personally like the idea of multiple dimensions some of which are superluminal and some of which are not. They it can be made to work in a weird kind of way whilst saving cause and effect, yet allowing for a way to cheat cause and effect under certain circumstances. Personally I think that's the most likely scenario. Then Jeanniebean can claim that the superluminal dimension is where we do our 'mental hologram projecting', but we physically just live in the subluminal part. That's probably the most pragmatic explanation. But it can't be proven by science because no one knows how to access the superluminal dimension to verify that it's there. Although, Jeanniebean is practicing various techniques so who knows. Maybe she'll find one. |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Mon 10/06/08 03:42 PM
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you're probably right
but there's a finite chance that you will spontaneously disappear and reappear 3 light-years from here although it is much more likely to be Mars. 
what did the decelerating electron say to the photon? "i just had a sudden impulse to wave!" 
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Seems to me that postulating an "extra-physical" connection between the "unmeasured" wavicle and the "measuring" particle would handle things nicely. Problem is, the entire concept of "extra-physical" is anathema to science. So never the twain shall meet. Exactly. That's like saying the ghost did it! Although, with the ideas of extra dimensions, and worm-holed spaces, and dark matter and dark energy, and the S1owhand wave factor, science may be changing what it considers to be "extra-physical" in the very near future. 
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I'm not familiar with the term extra-physical either.
I guess these are scientific terms not spiritual terms. I believe there are other worlds that contain matter and inhabitants that is just as real as this one but that they exist at a different wave frequency and we can't see or touch them. jb |
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TALES FROM THE DARK SIDE...
Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality. BUT.... there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit. A dark side. 
The dark side is always there,: waiting for us to enter,: waiting to enter us. Until next time,: try to enjoy the daylight. ... 
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S1owhand had an impulse to post a partial thought
His partial thought's impartial to the fleeting quantum plot His electron waved cause it's well-behaved as it makes its quantum leap The photon saw what can't be seen as a scientific bleep It's over there! Then over here! And never in between! It's like a fleeting goblin on the night of Halloween! S1owhand howls his sultry blues and leaves the science to the geeks The women pour him mugs of brew as they worship his techniques And so it goes for mice and men, and particles and waves The truth is only known to Zen and all the women are his slaves |
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I'm not familiar with the term extra-physical either. I guess these are scientific terms not spiritual terms. Extra-physical = beyond physical Superluminal = beyond the speed of light SupraJeannie = A Jeannie beyond the genies.
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I'm not familiar with the term extra-physical either. I guess these are scientific terms not spiritual terms. Extra-physical = beyond physical Superluminal = beyond the speed of light SupraJeannie = A Jeannie beyond the genies.
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Seems to me that postulating an "extra-physical" connection between the "unmeasured" wavicle and the "measuring" particle would handle things nicely. Problem is, the entire concept of "extra-physical" is anathema to science. So never the twain shall meet. Exactly. That's like saying the ghost did it! Although, with the ideas of extra dimensions, and worm-holed spaces, and dark matter and dark energy, and the S1owhand wave factor, science may be changing what it considers to be "extra-physical" in the very near future.
Hilbert says - "Spaces are infinite and you don't get much more extra-physical that that."
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Mon 10/06/08 08:31 PM
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Abra except that there is no law of cause and effect. We have no laws that say cause must precede effect, we only have our experience to justify that such a thing must exist.
When I drop an egg it will follow the bending of space-time and be effected by the earth gravity and fall, and shatter on the ground . . . this is what our experience tells us, but there is no law that states that this must be so, it is within the laws of physics that if every force exerted if revered would act according to allow the exact reverse path to reassemble the egg and toss it up in the exact trajectory back into your hand. Backward causation is seriously being considered in the physics community. That is to say a future event effects a past occurrence. The fact the light quanta was observed in the future determined the course of its path in the past. This is all very counter intuitive. |
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Abra except that there is no law of cause and effect. We have no laws that say cause must precede effect, we only have our experience to justify that such a thing must exist.
I always thought of cause-and-effect as being as tightly bound to time as is space. That is, from the observers viewpointr, part of the definition of "cause" is "before effect", and part of the definition of "effect" is "after cause". But what do I know? Apparently not much! When I drop an egg it will follow the bending of space-time and be effected by the earth gravity and fall, and shatter on the ground . . . this is what our experience tells us, but there is no law that states that this must be so, it is within the laws of physics that if every force exerted if revered would act according to allow the exact reverse path to reassemble the egg and toss it up in the exact trajectory back into your hand. Backward causation is seriously being considered in the physics community. That is to say a future event effects a past occurrence. The fact the light quanta was observed in the future determined the course of its path in the past. This is all very counter intuitive. 
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Mon 10/06/08 09:12 PM
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Abra except that there is no law of cause and effect. We have no laws that say cause must precede effect, we only have our experience to justify that such a thing must exist. Actually we do. These are the foundational posulates of classical Newtonian physics. The First Law of motion: A body in motion will continue in motion in a straight path unless acted upon by a force. This implies cause and effect. The Secondly Law of motion: The acceleration of a body is always due to a force acting upon the body. (i.e. F=ma) This implies cause and effect. The Third Law of motion: For every force (action) there is an equal and opposite force (reaction). This third law doesn't imply cause and effect on its own (in any particular order). But it does imply that forces interact via causality. In fact, Newton himself was troubled by the apparent instantaneous affect of gravity. However, since at that time, there was no reason to consider that the speed of light was constant, or the limiting speed in the universe, it wasn't too extreme. Later, when Einstein discovered the truth of the effects described by his theory of Special Relativity, he suddenly realized that even Gravity must obey this limitation. Thus he when on to describe General Relativity. This was all just to keep things within the realm of causality. In fact, it paid off in the case of General Relatiavity. Einstein's description of gravity turned out to be much more accurate than the original formulations. So to say that cause and effect isn't a "law" of physics is a bit naive doncha thing? All of our physics is based on the principle of cause and effect. These are the very foundational laws of all of physics. Given to us as the very first three laws of motion, by Isaac Newton himself. To abandon these three laws of motion, would cause our whole house of cards to comes tumbling down. However, just as Special Relativity didn't destory these foundational principles, it is most likely that Quantum Mechanics won't distroy them either. It will probably add to them. For example, if there are dimensions in which superluminal communications (or interactions) are possible, that doesn't mean that Newton was wrong. He simply didn't include all possiblies. It could very well be that those superluminal dimensions are only accessble to quantum-sized phenonmenon. Thus Newton's world would still hold true for the macro stuff. So football's still a valid concept! 
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Abra except that there is no law of cause and effect. We have no laws that say cause must precede effect, we only have our experience to justify that such a thing must exist. When I drop an egg it will follow the bending of space-time and be effected by the earth gravity and fall, and shatter on the ground . . . this is what our experience tells us, but there is no law that states that this must be so, it is within the laws of physics that if every force exerted if revered would act according to allow the exact reverse path to reassemble the egg and toss it up in the exact trajectory back into your hand. Backward causation is seriously being considered in the physics community. That is to say a future event effects a past occurrence. The fact the light quanta was observed in the future determined the course of its path in the past. This is all very counter intuitive. What makes you say there are no laws of cause and effect? Of course there are. If there were not, you could not have typed this post and then hit enter and had it appear in this thread. LOL Just because backward causation is seriously being considered in the physics community does not mean this universe has no cause and effect. This 3-D holographic reality is currently running on "Play" in a forward motion, and is not in "rewind." This is not to say whoever is playing this holographic interactive multiple outcome 3-D movie won't ever hit the rewind button.
Yes there is a law of cause and effect in this reality, and other laws too. That is what gives this reality its current duration and integrity. Otherwise it would be like a confusing mass of hallucinations, nightmares and dreams. JB |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Mon 10/06/08 10:13 PM
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Nice post Abra by the end you come around to my point.
Relativity was not what we where talking about. Mechanics was not what we where talking about. QM was what we where talking about. Particle wave duality shows us that our sense of causation is lacking. Backward causation is real. We have set up very real experiments where particles of light or electrons have to "choose" a path "before" they are "observed" and yet the wave function still collapses "before" the "observation" takes place . . . _________________ Also I stated for the record, that no law states that cause has to precede effect. There is a subtly there that must be explored . . . The arrow of time appears fixed, but we cannot know what symmetries have diverged since the separation of the forces. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Mon 10/06/08 10:11 PM
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Nice post by the end you come around to my point. Relativity was not what we where talking about. Mechanics was not what we where talking about. QM was what we where talking about. Particle wave duality shows us that our sense of causation is lacking. Backward causation is real. _________________ Yes it is, but rather difficult (I would imagine) in the denser material worlds. In higher frequency realities time travel forward and backward, is certainly possible. |
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Nice post Abra by the end you come around to my point. Relativity was not what we where talking about. Mechanics was not what we where talking about. QM was what we where talking about. Particle wave duality shows us that our sense of causation is lacking. Backward causation is real. _________________ Also I stated for the record, that no law states that cause hasto precede effect. There is a subtly there that must be explored . . . The very nature of time is indeed an issue in it's own right. Paul Davies once wrote a book called "About Time". I'm sure there are many other books as well, but this is one that I actually read. 
In any case, he points out the fact that there must be more than one kind of time. Yet science truly only speaks about a single type of time. As an example, in particle physics antiparicles actually travel backward in time. That's a well-known fact. Yet they don't disappear from the 'now'. In other words, even though they are traveling backward in time as they percieve it, they are always here 'now'. This is true of the Twin Brother's paradox as well. For example, if I were to build a time machine and travel into the future, and I got into the machine and activated it, if the machine works you'd expect me to vanish, right? After all, I'm traveling into the future! How could I still be here now? If I remained here 'now' we'd just say that the time machine didn't work. Kind of like in the movies "Back to the Future". The time machine always disapears when it takes off into the past or the future. Well, what about the Twin Brother's paradox. How could the brothers reunite if they had been separated by time? They couldn't! They would never see each other again. Especially since it only works one-way. There's no way to get back. Yet neither brother disappears from the 'now'. In fact, if instead of using high velocities to think about this, let's use graviational fields. They work the same way. In fact, time is supposed to run at different rates at the top of high mountains, then at sea level. So why don't the tops of the mountains disappear into the past or the future? They're always here 'now'. The point being that even though time can run at different rates for different observers, those observers are always here 'now'. They never disappear unless they die and turn to dust. That the only reason the people from the past aren't still here today. They simply died and turned to dust, but their dust is still here now! All that truly exists exist 'now'. There is no other 'time' than 'now'. So if this is true, then what the hell does cause and effect even mean? 
Clearly it has something to do with Einstein's Relative time. And we know that time is Relative. So if we invite our Relatives over we'll have a great time! 
That is the secret that we are all striving to discover.
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Mon 10/06/08 10:39 PM
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density that is interesting.
The nucleus of an atom is to the size of the atom as a gnat is to the size of a football stadium. There is far more space then matter within every atom. Electrons seem to be lill smears of negative charge, that push this infinitesimal stuff around. But this smear cannot take up space . . . so an atom is protons and neutrons, and electrons. Protons and neutrons are Gnats testicles hovering inside a football stadium, and electrons must to be consistent with relativity be sizeless and have no dimension at all . . . . SO again more space then stuff heheh _______________________________ Posted this before I got to read your response Abra, you have alot of information but anti-particles moving backward in time to my knowledge has not been added to the standard theory of particle physics, a particle by the name of the tachyon has been theorized to exist if the standard model is correct, and that particle could not slow down below the speed of light and thus moves backward through time. Let me know if you have any links or sources for the antiparticle point id love to be wrong and ignorant, its always a sure fire way to learn something. However could it have been a mix up with the tachyon? |
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density that is interesting. The nucleus of an atom is to the size of the atom as a gnat is to the size of a football stadium. There is far more space then matter within every atom. Electrons seem to be lill smears of negative charge, that push this infinitesimal stuff around. But this smear cannot take up space . . . so an atom is protons and neutrons, and electrons. Protons and neutrons are Gnats testicles hovering inside a football stadium, and electrons must to be consistent with relativity be sizeless and have no dimension at all . . . . SO again more space then stuff heheh _______________________________ I don't think "space" is empty. There is "stuff" there, you just can't see it. It exists at a different wave frequency. jb |
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Can someone 'splain to me how "entropy always increases" relates to QM? Or is that even a meaningful question?
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We will probably never figure out the " complete physics" of the matter. A few years ago several of the worlds largest governments jioned together in cost burden, and sent a probe into space to test Emc2. The way they did the test ,basically was by sending a probe out and sling shoting it off of the gravity of planets so that it would aproach the speed of light, kinda...When the test was done these astrophysists discovered that if we remove the aspect of time from Einstiens theory of relitivtiy. it falls apart. However, it is close enough for whatever we actually might need to do, and more! It is amazing what a person can start, by being friendly to someone in a hotel lobby bar who is obviousily from Russia. While you are waiting to watch a space shuttle launch in Cape Canavoril. The guy was one of the top astrophysists in the world ! I just told him my thoughts on the subject, he about fainted. About two years later the probe was launched!
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