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| Topic: GOOD AND EVIL ?? | |
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I dont understand your question? There have been MANY hundreds of Gods and Goddesses throughout history. Can you explain what you want me to answer here exactly? Are you asking if ALL Neo Pagans of today (modern times) worship the exact same Goddess of the Neolithic? No, that's doubtful. I think the point here is that it was a belief system based on a FEMALE principle and not an aloof boy god up in the clouds who claims to create life. That came much later with these Indo-Europeans. The "skygods" to which you were referring basically infringed upon these conquered people and subjugated their beliefs. Goddesses when not stamped out totally were forced to marry or become the concubines of these newer male gods in their stories and religious lore. There is a shift in civilization on several levels and not only religion.
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Neo pagans? So are you referring to Wiccans today? Well generally the most common Goddess found in the Wiccan tradition is the Triple Goddess. The triple moon is a Goddess symbol that represents the Maiden, Mother, and Crone as the waxing, full, and waning moon. It is also associated with feminine energy, mystery and psychic abilities. At her sacred grove at Aricia, on the shores of Lake Nemi a triplefold Diana was venerated from the late sixth century BCE as Diana Nemorensis. The Latin Diana was conceived as a threefold unity of the divine huntress, the Moon goddess, and the goddess of the nether world. There were several Goddesses of the Neolithic period. One of the most famous excavations that you might find of interest is that of Catalhoyuk. It is one of the largest excavations ever discovered in southern Anatolia in Turkey. It dates at about 7500 BCE. A striking feature of Catalhoyuk are its female figurines. Mellaart, the original excavator, argued that these well-formed, carefully made figurines, carved and molded from marble, blue and brown limestone, schist, calcite, basalt, alabaster, and clay, represented a female deity of the Great Goddess type. Although a male deity existed as well, “…statues of a female deity far outnumber those of the male deity, who moreover, does not appear to be represented at all after Level VI”.To date, eighteen levels have been identified. These careful figurines were found primarily in areas Mellaart believed to be shrines. One, however – a stately goddess seated on a throne flanked by two lionesses – was found in a grain bin, which Mellaart suggests might have been a means of ensuring the harvest or protecting the food supply.  So "the Goddess" is the Greco-Roman deity Artemis/Diana?
hmm?? - not sure of that -the venus of willendorf supposedly is 30,000 trs ols and pre-dates what krimsa is stating, so no i dont think artemus/Diana is "first goddess" to be worshipped, at least to this find anyway. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:01 PM
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Tribo likes the Venus.
 He always brings her up.  No, I was referring to the Neolithic period which began about 10,000 BC in the Middle East.
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Tribo likes the Venus. He always brings her up.
nah, i like slender goddesses who have actual faces -
but - dont you think that if she does supercede diana in age by that much she would be before her? |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:11 PM
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 The descriptions I have read seem to fit Artmeis/Diana. An archetype The name can always change. Most deities have many names. The more I think about it the more convinced I become that "The Goddess" is the Diana archetype.
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:12 PM
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Im not sure that was what he was asking me. He was asking what is "the Goddess" meaning the one and only. There is no one that is empirically more important or substantial than the rest. It is simply the dominant belief system predating monotheism. Its an entirely different concept than having one all powerful male god such as the Christian faith dictates.
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The descriptions I have read seem to fit Artmeis/Diana. An archetype The name can always change. Most deities have many names. The more I think about it the more convinced I become that "The Goddess" is the Diana archetype.
sorry i didn't note the name venus of willendorf is that because of where it was found - not because they know the name of the statues |
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I dont understand your question? There have been MANY hundreds of Gods and Goddesses throughout history. Can you explain what you want me to answer here exactly? Are you asking if ALL Neo Pagans of today (modern times) worship the exact same Goddess of the Neolithic? No, that's doubtful. I think the point here is that it was a belief system based on a FEMALE principle and not an aloof boy god up in the clouds who claims to create life. That came much later with these Indo-Europeans. The "skygods" to which you were referring basically infringed upon these conquered people and subjugated their beliefs. Goddesses when not stamped out totally were forced to marry or become the concubines of these newer male gods in their stories and religious lore. There is a shift in civilization on several levels and not only religion. The agricultural city dwellers did indeed conquer the nomadic hunter/gatherers. This has been repeated everytime in history that the two have come in contact.
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The descriptions I have read seem to fit Artmeis/Diana. An archetype The name can always change. Most deities have many names. The more I think about it the more convinced I become that "The Goddess" is the Diana archetype.
sorry i didn't note the name venus of willendorf is that because of where it was found - not because they know the name of the statues  I know what your talking about Tribo.
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:22 PM
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The Greco Roman period was when Rome invaded and occupied Greece and that would have been only about 150 BC or so. There is evidence of Goddess worship extending back to the Neolithic. As noted, it was these Indo-European pastoralists that eventually grew in numbers and destroyed or occupied these cultures.
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:30 PM
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The Greco Roman period was when Rome invaded and occupied Greece and that would have been only about 150 BC or so. There is evidence of Goddess worship extending back to the Neolithic. As noted, it was these Indo-European pastoralists that eventually grew in numbers and destroyed or occupied these cultures. Dont get hung up on the name Im using. The "Diana Archetype" existed long before recorded history and probably always will exist in one form another. It makes perfect sense if you consider that the Diana archetype is the embodiment of the traits that most modern western women value. Its perfectly natural that they would be drawn to this particular archetype.
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At first it was like the proverbial biblical cloud "no bigger than a man's hand"-the activities of seemingly insignificant nomadic bands roaming the less desirable fringe areas of our globe seeking grass for their herds. Over millennia they were apparently out there in the harsh, unwanted, colder, sparser territories on the edges of the earth, while the first great agricultural civilizations spread out along the lakes and rivers in the fertile heartlands. To these agricultural peoples, enjoying humanity's early peak of evolution, peace and prosperity must have seemed the blessed eternal state for humankind, the nomads no more than a peripheral novelty. We have nothing to go by but speculation on how these nomadic bands grew in numbers and in ferocity and over what span of time.' But by the fifth millennium B.C.E., or about seven thousand years ago, we begin to find evidence of what Mellaart calls a pattern of disruption of the old Neolithic cultures in the Near East.' Archaeological remains indicate clear signs of stress by this time in many territories. There is evidence of invasions, natural catastrophes, and sometimes both, causing large-scale destruction and dislocation. In many areas the old painted pottery traditions disappear. Bit by devastating bit, a period of cultural regression and stagnation sets in. Finally, during this time of mounting chaos the development of civilization comes to a standstill. As Mellaart writes, it will be another two thousand years before the civilizations of Sumer and Egypt emerge.6 In Old Europe the physical and cultural disruption of the Neolithic societies that worshiped the Goddess also seems to begin in the fifth millenniUM B.C.E., with what Gimbutas calls Kurgan Wave
That would indicate the opposite of your theory MM. The nomadic hunter/gatherers came in and conquered these advanced, Goddess worshiping city dwellers and forced their "skygods" on them. Remember all that you were talking about last evening?
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:34 PM
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At first it was like the proverbial biblical cloud "no bigger than a man's hand"-the activities of seemingly insignificant nomadic bands roaming the less desirable fringe areas of our globe seeking grass for their herds. Over millennia they were apparently out there in the harsh, unwanted, colder, sparser territories on the edges of the earth, while the first great agricultural civilizations spread out along the lakes and rivers in the fertile heartlands. To these agricultural peoples, enjoying humanity's early peak of evolution, peace and prosperity must have seemed the blessed eternal state for humankind, the nomads no more than a peripheral novelty. We have nothing to go by but speculation on how these nomadic bands grew in numbers and in ferocity and over what span of time.' But by the fifth millennium B.C.E., or about seven thousand years ago, we begin to find evidence of what Mellaart calls a pattern of disruption of the old Neolithic cultures in the Near East.' Archaeological remains indicate clear signs of stress by this time in many territories. There is evidence of invasions, natural catastrophes, and sometimes both, causing large-scale destruction and dislocation. In many areas the old painted pottery traditions disappear. Bit by devastating bit, a period of cultural regression and stagnation sets in. Finally, during this time of mounting chaos the development of civilization comes to a standstill. As Mellaart writes, it will be another two thousand years before the civilizations of Sumer and Egypt emerge.6 In Old Europe the physical and cultural disruption of the Neolithic societies that worshiped the Goddess also seems to begin in the fifth millenniUM B.C.E., with what Gimbutas calls Kurgan Wave That would indicate the opposite of your theory MM. The nomadic hunter/gatherers came in and conquered these advanced, Goddess worshiping city dwellers and forced their "skygods" on them. Remember all that you were talking about last evening?
Well considering that one of "The Goddess" symbols is the moon, I would consider it to be a skygod. Or perhaps an earth deity that took more human attributes and was inducted into the skygod belief system
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The Greco Roman period was when Rome invaded and occupied Greece and that would have been only about 150 BC or so. There is evidence of Goddess worship extending back to the Neolithic. As noted, it was these Indo-European pastoralists that eventually grew in numbers and destroyed or occupied these cultures. Dont get hung up on the name Im using. The "Diana Archetype" existed long before recorded history and probably always will exist in one form another. It makes perfect sense if you consider that the Diana archetype is the embodiment of the traits that most modern western women value. Its perfectly natural that they would be drawn to this particular archetype.
Well I think you are off here. Couldn't I just as easily state that men are really drawn to Christianity and Jesus because he was a swell guy and his father (God) is mighty and powerful and tough and scary and he lives up in the clouds and he throws "non-Believers" in hell? I mean whats the difference there? Aren't those all of the qualities that men generally hold in high esteem?
Im basing the Goddess worship theory on these discoveries in the Neolithic, pre-dating the conceptualization of Monotheism by thousand of years. |
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At first it was like the proverbial biblical cloud "no bigger than a man's hand"-the activities of seemingly insignificant nomadic bands roaming the less desirable fringe areas of our globe seeking grass for their herds. Over millennia they were apparently out there in the harsh, unwanted, colder, sparser territories on the edges of the earth, while the first great agricultural civilizations spread out along the lakes and rivers in the fertile heartlands. To these agricultural peoples, enjoying humanity's early peak of evolution, peace and prosperity must have seemed the blessed eternal state for humankind, the nomads no more than a peripheral novelty. We have nothing to go by but speculation on how these nomadic bands grew in numbers and in ferocity and over what span of time.' But by the fifth millennium B.C.E., or about seven thousand years ago, we begin to find evidence of what Mellaart calls a pattern of disruption of the old Neolithic cultures in the Near East.' Archaeological remains indicate clear signs of stress by this time in many territories. There is evidence of invasions, natural catastrophes, and sometimes both, causing large-scale destruction and dislocation. In many areas the old painted pottery traditions disappear. Bit by devastating bit, a period of cultural regression and stagnation sets in. Finally, during this time of mounting chaos the development of civilization comes to a standstill. As Mellaart writes, it will be another two thousand years before the civilizations of Sumer and Egypt emerge.6 In Old Europe the physical and cultural disruption of the Neolithic societies that worshiped the Goddess also seems to begin in the fifth millenniUM B.C.E., with what Gimbutas calls Kurgan Wave That would indicate the opposite of your theory MM. The nomadic hunter/gatherers came in and conquered these advanced, Goddess worshiping city dwellers and forced their "skygods" on them. Remember all that you were talking about last evening?
Well considering that one of "The Goddess" symbols is the moon, I would consider it to be a skygod. Or perhaps an earth deity that took more human attributes and was inducted into the skygod belief system
Except that the moon has always been associated with the feminine principle as the sun has been with the male. However, you are free to now redefine "skygod" however you choose.
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The Greco Roman period was when Rome invaded and occupied Greece and that would have been only about 150 BC or so. There is evidence of Goddess worship extending back to the Neolithic. As noted, it was these Indo-European pastoralists that eventually grew in numbers and destroyed or occupied these cultures. Dont get hung up on the name Im using. The "Diana Archetype" existed long before recorded history and probably always will exist in one form another. It makes perfect sense if you consider that the Diana archetype is the embodiment of the traits that most modern western women value. Its perfectly natural that they would be drawn to this particular archetype.
Well I think you are off here. Couldn't I just as easily state that men are really drawn to Christianity and Jesus because he was a swell guy and his father (God) is mighty and powerful and tough and scary and he lives up in the clouds and he throws "non-Believers" in hell? I mean whats the difference there? Aren't those all of the qualities that men generally hold in high esteem?
Im basing the Goddess worship theory on these discoveries in the Neolithic, pre-dating the conceptualization of Monotheism by thousand of years. Not really. The Diana archetype is at its heart a male archetype. "Diana" is a female doing a (traditionaly)male activity, hunting (among other things). A female doing traditionally "male" things succesfully. I need to go brush up on my Carl Jung.
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At first it was like the proverbial biblical cloud "no bigger than a man's hand"-the activities of seemingly insignificant nomadic bands roaming the less desirable fringe areas of our globe seeking grass for their herds. Over millennia they were apparently out there in the harsh, unwanted, colder, sparser territories on the edges of the earth, while the first great agricultural civilizations spread out along the lakes and rivers in the fertile heartlands. To these agricultural peoples, enjoying humanity's early peak of evolution, peace and prosperity must have seemed the blessed eternal state for humankind, the nomads no more than a peripheral novelty. We have nothing to go by but speculation on how these nomadic bands grew in numbers and in ferocity and over what span of time.' But by the fifth millennium B.C.E., or about seven thousand years ago, we begin to find evidence of what Mellaart calls a pattern of disruption of the old Neolithic cultures in the Near East.' Archaeological remains indicate clear signs of stress by this time in many territories. There is evidence of invasions, natural catastrophes, and sometimes both, causing large-scale destruction and dislocation. In many areas the old painted pottery traditions disappear. Bit by devastating bit, a period of cultural regression and stagnation sets in. Finally, during this time of mounting chaos the development of civilization comes to a standstill. As Mellaart writes, it will be another two thousand years before the civilizations of Sumer and Egypt emerge.6 In Old Europe the physical and cultural disruption of the Neolithic societies that worshiped the Goddess also seems to begin in the fifth millenniUM B.C.E., with what Gimbutas calls Kurgan Wave That would indicate the opposite of your theory MM. The nomadic hunter/gatherers came in and conquered these advanced, Goddess worshiping city dwellers and forced their "skygods" on them. Remember all that you were talking about last evening?
Well considering that one of "The Goddess" symbols is the moon, I would consider it to be a skygod. Or perhaps an earth deity that took more human attributes and was inducted into the skygod belief system
Except that the moon has always been associated with the feminine principle as the sun has been with the male. However, you are free to now redefine "skygod" however you choose.
Im using the term "god" in a gender neutral sense. When I say skygod or earthgod Im not referencing gender.
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:54 PM
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I propose that "The Goddess" is Jungian archetype known as Anima
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The Anima and Animus are, in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology, the unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to the persona or outer aspect of the personality. In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.
It can be identified as the totality of the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a male possesses; or the masculine ones possessed by the female. Jung stated that the anima/animus archetype was not totally unconscious, calling it "a little bit conscious and unconscious."[1] In the interview, he gave an example of a man who falls head over heels in love, then later in life regrets his blind choice as he finds that he has married his own anima–the unconscious idea of the feminine in his mind, rather than the woman herself. The anima is usually an aggregate of a man's mother but may also incorporate aspects of sisters, aunts, and teachers. The anima is one of the most significant autonomous complexes of all. It manifests itself by appearing as figures in dreams as well as by influencing a man's interactions with women and his attitudes toward them, and vice versa for females and the animus. Jung said that confronting one's shadow self is an "apprentice-piece", while confronting one's anima is the masterpiece. Jung viewed the anima process as being one of the sources of creative ability. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_(Jung) |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/12/08 05:50 PM
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The Greco Roman period was when Rome invaded and occupied Greece and that would have been only about 150 BC or so. There is evidence of Goddess worship extending back to the Neolithic. As noted, it was these Indo-European pastoralists that eventually grew in numbers and destroyed or occupied these cultures. Dont get hung up on the name Im using. The "Diana Archetype" existed long before recorded history and probably always will exist in one form another. It makes perfect sense if you consider that the Diana archetype is the embodiment of the traits that most modern western women value. Its perfectly natural that they would be drawn to this particular archetype.
Well I think you are off here. Couldn't I just as easily state that men are really drawn to Christianity and Jesus because he was a swell guy and his father (God) is mighty and powerful and tough and scary and he lives up in the clouds and he throws "non-Believers" in hell? I mean whats the difference there? Aren't those all of the qualities that men generally hold in high esteem?
Im basing the Goddess worship theory on these discoveries in the Neolithic, pre-dating the conceptualization of Monotheism by thousand of years. Not really. The Diana archetype is at its heart a male archetype. "Diana" is a female doing a (traditionaly)male activity, hunting (among other things). A female doing traditionally "male" things succesfully. I need to go brush up on my Carl Jung.
Except that you do realize the Neolithic was 10,000 BCE?  I know you are not arguing the dominance of these earlier religions however. The Greco Roman as stated was about 150 BCE. Something like that. By that time, your dominant "skygods" are on the scene. You still have the Goddess in worship but she has been conquered and subjugated by these male god conceptualizations. Then the Hebrews came and then we start getting into Monotheism and that was the nail in the coffin. You should take the time to read that "skygod" invasion history. I feel like Im repeating it but you could just read it for yourself.
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