no i don't beleive the "story" [myth, legend] to be factual - i do however look at it as what the hebrews took to be factual, otherwise they would still not believe in it. nor the christians. i think your right in thinking that as a story that they were nieve as children, that goes along with christ stating later that you must be as little children to enter into heaven. But i dont think they were instinctual creatures as all other animals are, this was a custom made species as the story states, in the image and likeness of it's creator. none of the others were made as such. they could reason, understand, had cognizance/knowledge - how limited i cant say, but it was far from the instinctual behavior of any other created animal. if they were no better in that respect - why bother making them at all? any animal would have served the purpose if they were not above them.

Well to be fair you are taking some liberties there with who believes what and who exactly takes these stories from the bible to be literal truth or factual. Certainly not all Christians. But for the sake of this debate, that isn't really important. I can discuss from the literal standpoint and the purpose for why they were written. Does that sound okay?

As far as the actual intellect of Adam and Eve, I imagine for the sake of the tale itself, the writers would have wanted to convey that the subjects of Adam and Eve were probably in their late teen years to early 20s, capable of sexual contact and reproduction and probably having about the same cognitive ability to reason and function as any other human would during this same time period. So in other words, the writers were not trying to confuse the respective audience and would assume this to be the case. A 19 year old person in the garden would have been a 19 year old for the day. Do you follow me thus far? So I guess I would disagree with the notion that they were like little parakeets or finches. I dont believe the story was trying to convey that either.

fair enough.

I guess if we are moving on here. I would wonder why it was a snake exactly that was the vehicle of this temptation? What is the significance of the serpent? And why did the snake approach Eve and not Adam instead?

I can give you my opinion. The serpent being was not a snake. He was one of the Naga race of humanoids. He approached Eve because she was female and he was male. He wanted to have intercourse with her. Which he did. Then Adam did. The result was twins, Cane and Able. Cane was the son of the Naga snake people, and Able was the son of Adam.

Or so the theory goes.... but who knows.

The "forbidden fruit" was the Naga. They were not supposed to mate outside of their union, for it would disrupt the chain of descendants who were supposed to mate with the humans of the earth.

For what it is worth I agree with you. I mean c'mon. Magic apples which contain the knowledge of the world...??? There has to has to be another event from which this story was derived. I have a story that I have been playing around with. (yes even us atheists don't have all the answers lol.)

Hear me out for a second.... Ill also keep this short.

The snake { "paganism" in my opinion }, is said to have tempted/tricked "us" into eating from the tree of "good and evil/knowledge". In doing so Adam and Eve gained knowledge of the world and started to think. God did not like this. He specifically said for them to avoid this tree...........

Now here is where I feel most followers of the Bible sell their soul short without even thinking about it.>>>

In the first book of the Bible we hear God pretty much saying, "If you ask questions Your "unfaithfulness" will keep you out of "HIS" heaven forever." If God was secure in his role as the creator of the universe don't you think he would have nothing to hide??

The motive is clear.. (to me at least) The bible and most all religions blatantly exploit the "fear" some individuals place on where their "soul" is going. And in doing so keep the integrity of the faith {at least within the congregation} in tact.

Just my opinion, but do carry on about the magic apples.....

Hey it works for me. If you look online there are a TON of different interpretations of this story. I mean its endless. Because it's broken down into symbolism it can really be interpreted any which way. Just the fruit alone. Some say it was apple, some say it was fig, some say it was dark soma fruit, some say pomegranate, others say grapes. It just goes on and on...

How about this: take the whole story as a metaphor dreamed up by the male-dominated society to blame women for all the sexual problems of man - The snake would obviously be the phallus, acting independently of Adam's will. (Down boy!) The apple would be the seed that fertilized Eve when she "partook of it". And all the while Adam claims to be the "innocent" who was corrupted by Eve's wiles.

Just an amusing idea the ladies might be able to expound on.

I see these 2 connections. I am still heavily researching the subject, but does anyone have any thoughts?

Serpent>> Paganism
"tree of knowledge">> possibly the dodecahedron??

Yes absolutely on the serpent being indicative of Paganism. This can actually be traced directly. It was used as a means of discrediting a much older belief system. That might also stand in line with why Eve was approached by the serpent instead of Adam. The female, who had been associated with the Earth and the ability to create life...something that the boy god was wanting desperately to take credit for...hmmm sir I think you might be having an "a ha!" moment.

This older belief system you speak of... any connection to the druids directly? My dad used to research them a lot and I just scratched the surface on them yesterday. Anywhere I can find some "solid" info would be great.

I would say ALL of it. I mean I could look up the Druids specifically to find it. The snake had been associated with the Goddess dating as far as back as Pre-Dynastic Egypt. Thats ONE culture mind you. Once you start looking up these pre-Christian peoples and faiths, its like opening a flood gate when you look at their spirituality. You can see exactly what Christianity would have been in direct conflict with and the concepts they would have been in combat with. Then you can start systematically picking them out in story after story in the bible.

Here is a decent site but the Druids were probably a KEY pre-Christian spirituality so your pop was definitely onto something. His instincts were correct.

http://www.wildideas.net/cathbad/druid.html

thanks for this. Im going to check it out now.

HMMM?? well it seems their are more takes on this story than i'm aware of, but i'll answer from what the book says on the matter as to the Snake/serpent.

LXX - Septuigent hebrew/greek

Chapter 3
1 Now the "serpent" was the most "crafty" of all the >brutes< on the earth, which the Lord God made, and the serpent said to the woman, Wherefore has God said, Eat not of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,


In hebrew - the word used here for serpent is nachash pronounced [ naw-khawsh ] now serpent can mean snake, but it can also mean >enchanter< and also > observer of signs and omens <

crafty [or subtle in the KJV] is aruwm [aw-room']
which can also mean - prudent, shrewd, or sly.

Brute(s) comes from the word caey [khah-ee] which can mean - beast, creature, living thing, along with a host of words that don't fit was is being said here like - life,running,raw,etc..

so it is saying from what i gather that: the serpent was a creature that was very sly/cunning and able to enchant those he wished to. from what i gather also from the word brute, is that it was not necessarily a snake, at least as we know of today or in later times. this is evident because god tells him later that:

14 And the Lord God said to the serpent, Because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle and all the brutes of the earth, on thy breast and belly thou shalt go, and thou shalt eat earth all the days of thy life. Meaning what ever it was, it was originally more of an upright creature than a snake as we know it is now. It also gives us the picture of it loosing status as to who it was before the temtation. possibly from being the highest animal outside of man present in the garden - sound familiar? - highest animal - highest angel? satan/lucifer?

15 And I will put "enmity" between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall "watch" against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel.

here we see that there will be hate between the "beast" seed and eves "seed" zera zeh-rah' seed meaning - offspring, decendant's children or figuratively - a practioner of righteousness

this is where christianity gets the idea of jesus struggle againt the devil/satan "that old serpent"
they had emnity/hatred for one another for sure.

so its the beginning to me of a continual tale told by the hebrews against god and lucifer and jesus and satan that lead to satan brusing his[jesus'] heel the crucifixion, and jesus's ressurecton after going to satans home [hell] and getting the keys to the gates.


or so the myth goes.

Well if we agree it was some kind of snake, perhaps it wasn't but that seems to be the common symbolism depicted today or what we associate it with, here is but one:

The Snake Goddess was one of the Minoan divinities associated closely with the snake cult. She is called also Household Goddess due to her attribute of the snake, which is connected with welfare of the Minoan house. But the snake is also symbol of the underworld deity, so the Snake Goddess is related to chthonic aspects too. Two famous faience Snake Goddesses from Knossos belong to the New-Palace period (about 1600 BCE).


The reason I pulled up this snake/Goddess association specifically is the date. These snakes had been associated with the Goddess for quite some time prior to the advent of Christianity. This was ancient Crete. An advanced and well established culture by all accounts.

This is only one interpretation. You can go in whatever direction you want Tribo. Carry on.

http://www.goddessgift.net/images/Goddess%20Minoan%20Snake%20AT-D-82.jpg

Thats a visual depiction of her.

What is the point to getting these beliefs so wide spread? That is the biggest question in my opinion. With sense of a clear motive maybe we can dissect this a little deeper.

I'm not going in any direction K,
i was just trying to give you something you'd asked about as well as I'm able :

"I guess if we are moving on here. I would wonder why it was a snake exactly that was the vehicle of this temptation? What is the significance of the serpent? And why did the snake approach Eve and not Adam instead?"

as i say as i looked at it i found what i posted, if i had known you wanted info outside the book then i wouldn't have bothered i can see there is plenty of speculation to go around. so I'll leave it to you and the others to continue in that respect, i can only speak for what the Hebrews or OT and NT say on it i have no other tools to exigis anything else so for me it would be all about taking someone Else's word for what something means and that could be anything. not that they might not be correct, but i have no way of looking into it in depth at the present. sorry

can you go a little farther with your statement here as to what yur meaning?

With all due respect, How do you justify your beliefs/information without having some knowledge to compare it to? I am not trying to provoke an argument.. I would just like to know if you wouldn't mind sharing.