I have proof. I married someone who once claimed he was sent by God just for me. He is Gods sidekick. Pretty perfect or so he thinks. Do you know how hard it is to be married to such a perfect specimen?

Yeah I know. Anyway I married the proof.

I am divorcing it next week.


Amen.

Seriously though until someone proves there isn't a God then I will still be a believer.:)

I will not try to prove your beliefs wrong (thats for you to do), but I will point out a certain level of uncertainty in your last statement. If you are sitting on the fence and don't want to put forth the effort of knowing the validity of your own beliefs I'm afraid you have bigger issues than someone else proving 'god' (in whatever way you see him/her/it) wrong.

nothing in the universe that MAN did NOT create does not reproduce after the original....

a tree.......drops a seed, a new tree is made, taking after the original in ALL ways......

the wind blows a dandelion "dust" and there spring forth MORE dandelions, looking as the original........

does not everything in the universe follow this principle of reproduction.......

then how can a HUMAN alone be the only thing that has deviated, as the entire universe operate in the same fashion.....

so then how can each one NOT BE a representation of their own original.......

if this original exist for all things, it is not seen how a human could NOT follow the same pattern of all the universe

it would only be the "emotion of thinking" of things outside of oneself that block from seeing how all things literally are......

can a child when it is born, have a notion of comprehension of how they were created....

is it something relative with any meaning, lol...

the conscious view of all that is being seen and felt is too great to see past, not as a defect, but rather how the cycle of life
progress while on earth, bring all each day to learn more.....

indeed, then it is just as hard for the adult human mind to really look into the ways that we do have proof of things greater than our present self......

all things that are do have proof, and greater knowing is as garnered from comparison of data without emotion or bias, and if enough comparisons are looked at, these create an undeniable truth of "absolute".....

can this absolute today be added to.....absolutely, but if they are as a truth that apply across and entire spectrum, no greater absolute will ever have to go back and change a previous one.........

is such truth available.....

indeed there has to be, or what real truth is there......

they are as each added one on top of the other, as a tower of undeniable truths, and why many speak of the wisdom of not holding to an absolute, but then this is not the same as disregarding anything as an absolute, which is to say it is NOT as truth......

it is commonly believed there are NO absolutes, but if there are none, then the human brain itself cannot function, nor can the body, nor the earth, nor the gaxie, and this is even evidenced when absolutes within the body break down or cease to function, then the body is thrust into disrepair.....

how is the brain any different, as if it control the body in such patterns, then would not all logic say it operate itself in this same pattern...

it has to, as all things duplicate themself....

if i am a "sloppy" person, will not everything i do and say duplicate this state of mind.......

there are absolutes of the mind that control all human behaviour and lead to the understanding of all happiness, or there is no point to existence, and if even all plant life, animal life, create balance within the universe, just as all stars and planets effect this earth and keep it in balance, so do ALL THINGS effect all things around itself, so each does have greater purpose, even the ability to create all that is around oneself, to bring more unhappiness, or less unhappiness, but then what is happiness, lol......

ok, i'll shut up for now, lol.....peace man

I say it again David,

Your truths truly are absolute truths of truth because they are not absolute statements about anything other than truth itself.

If anyone can't see that, it can only be because they have misunderstood what you are saying.

I understand. I agree. And I thank you for sharing your wisdom.

Even though my philosophy is in harmony with your ponderings, I still gain insight and knowledge from reading your words as you often present them from a different perspective than I normally see. Thus your ponderings illuminate these concepts in new ways for me.

I particularly found your observation that we duplicate our state of mind to be quite illuminating indeed.

I have recently been on a journey into deep investigations of the process of creation in many several different aspects of life. Including both the physical and the spiritual.

I am learning wonderful things about the cosmos and about my own true essence. Your comments in this thread have been valuable reflections that help to shed light on some of the darker mysteries of life.

So I just want you to know that your thoughts have touched someone in a deep and meaningful way.

belushi, the one i read posts from, an admire such honesty of self and thought......

if i said that when you read my posts, you have a pre-concieved idea of what you are looking to hear and find, and THIS is what makes my posts hard to read, would you think i was saying you were as "wrong", lol........

probably, lol......

how can anyone jump onto another thought "train" if it have and follow it's own "train" most.....

do i declare you should jump on mine....hell no!

there is NOTHING you write that i do not completely comprehend and see truth in it if i do not stop trying to understand, and the first time i say in my mind, "belushi is off" or "belushi has no merit" or anything of this nature comes from the mind, and i hear it as a finalality, the conscious will ceases to "hear more", and shuts down any possibility of more understanding being had......

do you in all your posts show you most bounce any understanding or truth off of what you already know......yes, in all honesty this is apparent to me, but is it bad to me.....

not in the least bit, as what do humans "hear"?

do we go thru life saying today i will hear something today that will determine or change my life, lol...

no, all things heard have made up all our life and mind about everything, so who and what controlled what was believed when it was believed, lol.....

there is nothing in life believed that was not believed by hearing it for a second time, which is not the way the conscious mind sees the act of believing all that we believe........

indeed, the conscious mind was as inspired to believe whatever it believe, and from where did this unseen, unrecognized inspiration to believe all that is believed come from....

who or what created the forethought that created the desire to believe what was thought........

are there not millions of thoughts passing thru.....

why the hell did anyone stop at any particular one, grasping it as it were, and turning it over and over as if this one "inspired" has more meaning......

truly man has been hearing all thoughts all along from each our own greater self, just not recognizing this, lol..........

can this be proven? indeed!

all forethought in the mind can be proven by all logic that it is not as given to oneself by conscious will, so then what ****ing invisible hand is controlling the essence of all that is recieved into the mind...........

so what am i to say.....

believe me? i ask nothing to believe me, as all greater truth is as determined by any hearer, not by profession of any speaker........

it is truly not my wish to speak in riddles, or in ways of no meaning, but these things spoken of are not as noraml logic of the mind, lol.....

guess you gotta be as crazy as i am to understand crazy, lol.......

oh, but then what do we have here.....the word crazy......

is that crazy as a fox, crazy as an insane one, crazy as.......oops, insane, what the hell is that......

so if i live "in sanity" then it is as insane?

well hell, that makes no sense at all......

perhaps the original diagnosis was meant as "unsanity"......

or perhaps the original one that diagnosed when looking at such a condition, perhaps as a mind doctor looking at a patient, and heard this wisdom from the mind, as "insanity" and heard it as a "negative" and therefore pronounced it as a "definition" as a wise "negative observation" of a percieved "negative" condition.........

if one look into all things that have been "told to be as negative" and look into the real words, and turn them over as stones seeing with ones OWNS LOGIC how and what they are, the key to the door to unlock the great wisdom that is being heard by each mind is had........

there is not one human born that is not an einstien, and i intend to prove it, and will.....

peace dear friend belushi....

abra.....i am only the essence of all that my ears have heard, and seen, felt, and tasted, which is "some" of every person i have ever met......

i am all that YOU have ever spoken to me, as i have discarded not one word as ignorance or bad........

indeed, you are then as much a part of me, as i am of myself, and every word you speak is and has become part of my fabric.....

indeed, if the mind with all will it uses to get what it wants, applies this same will to hearing all words, not eliminating the "hard to hear ones that are as bad to self, then all hearing is as 10 times what is normal, and what does hearing as 10 times normal make, lol....

all things are as TRUTH.....TRUTH.....TRUTH..

now all that good **** you say about me, lol...

if indeed they are as you say to you, then i am happy for you, as they do not speak about myself, but rather they speak of your heart, and how and who you are, not who i am, and the hearing of YOUR hearts happiness, gives me peace and happiness, and why they are not then things spoken as about me, lol.....

peace to the man that will with an abracadabra have all things explained and opened to the mind, and bliss will as swell outward to encompass all that are in the presence, and the veil that seperate will be torn from top to bottom, in the soon day that destiny knocks on the door, and never leaves.......

Hey, Im Conrad from Jamaica, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
This doesn't make me better than you or anyone, i just want you to undestand how a get my knowledge and of what point of view im coming to from.

You have raised an interesting topic, but i also relized that you have touched a lot of points.
I'm more gravitated to the issue your raised, you asked if he is a murderer.

My answers are firmily based on what the bibles has to say.
If i were in front of you, i would ask permission to use the bible in my comments, but since you are not here, please have my appology for quoting from it, IF, it's offensive to you.

Let me use the example of JERICHO,(Joshua 7:6-25) this was a city filled with ungodly people, worshiping and activities, they were so ungodly that they couldn't pleased our creator (Jehovah) anymore.
So he arranged for their distruction, however, there were peolpe who were honest hearted and were ask to segregate themselves and part take of Gold, Silver or what ever riches thatwere there,
this arrangement was captined by JOSHUA a prophet of GOD.
Jehovah is not a wicked person, he hates cheaters, he is jealous of false worship because he made man, give the breath as life, made a world with fruit, food, sunlight, moonlight, animals, fragrances and other things to entertain us, who wouldn't feel heartbroken?
He gave them enough time to repented and stop what they were doing, isn't it fear to say that GOD fight Holy Ways to do away with bad influences?

AT SOME time in your life, you may have asked: 'If there is a God who really cares about us, why does he permit so much suffering?' All of us have experienced suffering or have known someone who has.

Indeed, throughout history people have suffered pain and heartache from war, cruelty, crime, injustice, poverty, sickness, and the death of loved ones. In our 20th century alone, wars have killed over 100 million people. Hundreds of millions of others have been injured or have lost homes and possessions. Ever so many horrible things have happened in our time, resulting in great sorrow, many tears, and a sense of hopelessness on the part of countless numbers of people.

Some become embittered and feel that if there is a God, he does not really care about us. Or they may even feel that there is no God. For instance, a man who suffered from ethnic persecution that caused the death of friends and family in World War I asked: "Where was God when we needed him?" Another, who survived the murder of millions by the Nazis in World War II, was so grieved by the suffering he saw that he said: "If you could lick my heart, it would poison you."

Thus, many people cannot understand why a good God would allow bad things to happen. They question whether he really cares about us or whether he exists at all. And many of them feel that suffering will always be a part of human existence.

There is only one thing that Jehovah GOD ask of us, he ask that we fear him and keep his commandments.Romans 10:5

I will be commenting on other issues which you brought up, but now i just want to focuss on this issue.

Thanks for reading my comment, i am so hoping that i didn't offend you in any way possible.

Thanks truely

www.watchtower.org

no, but there is proof that bible thumpers really do exist

Does God Exist?
Some Scientists Answer
PHYSICS professor Ulrich J. Becker, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, stated when commenting on the existence of God: "How can I exist without a creator? I am not aware of any compelling answer ever given."

Did this contradict his scientific views? The professor's thought-provoking answer was, "If you discovered how one wheel in the 'clock' turns—you may speculate how the rest move, but you are not entitled to call this scientific and better leave alone the question of who wound up the spring."

Contrary to the opinion of some, many respected men of science do not rule out the idea of there being a God—a Great Mastermind behind the creation of the universe and man.

Consider two more examples on this point. When mathematics professor John E. Fornaess, of Princeton University, was asked for his thoughts on the existence of God, he replied: "I believe that there is a God and that God brings structure to the universe on all levels from elementary particles to living beings to superclusters of galaxies."

Physics professor Henry Margenau, of Yale University, said that he was convinced that the laws of nature were created by God, adding: "God created the universe out of nothing in an act which also brought time into existence." He then noted that in the book The Mystery of Life's Origin, three scientists explain that a Creator is a plausible explanation for life's origin. Supporting this view, astronomer Fred Hoyle has stated that believing the first cell originated by chance is like believing that a tornado ripping through a junkyard full of Boeing 747 airplane parts dismembered and in disarray could produce a 747.

To these answers can be added the words of the Bible writer Paul: "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship."—Romans 1:20.

Hi All, just taking a quick break.

There are some issues here that have not been addressed.

The first I will call "god, the icon".

Icon is a symbol, emblem, representation of somehthing "real".

Gods (and goddesses) have taken on the shape and attributes of something "real" since the beginning of religious thought. The shapes and attributes most commonly are those of humans.

Understanding the definitions or the basic conceptions of god and icon allows us to associate the word god (gods or goddesses) with an iconic representation of somthing real, having human attributes.

Here is where the first issue comes into play.
If anyone attempts to attribute creation to a creator OTHER THAN "god, the icon" then that creator or creative force should be called something OTHER than god.

Use of the words god, gods, goddess and goddesses only causes confustion when the word is used to mean somehthing OTHER than "god the icon".

It's distracting, confusing, it be viewed as a manipulative action to keep or win over the believers and non-believers alike, of "god, the icon." Or it can simply be viewed as the ill-fated attempt to explain another kind of philosophy that has not been "completely" separated from the original philosophy of "god the icon".

So Davidben, ONE QUESTION, at the moment - when you speak (write) as you have in this thread, are you speaking in the language of "god the icon" or of something else?

Perhaps if one is illuding to a more pantheistic belief, it might be wise to construct a new word for that which is considered the creator - perhaps "creator, the essence" would due.

Of course that means having to commit to ONE kind of belief and in so doing admit that there are other kinds of beliefs and other gods heads. In other words, choosing sides. Yes, there is no way to reconcile one kind of creator to another.

Why do you say this?

We are ALL consciously creating...

Are we not ALL Creators?

is not night and day an absolute, cold and hot, alive and dead, however there are indeed more absolutes beyond the mere physical obervation of such things, which many seek to explore more of, in the time the mind has need to inguire of such things, for more food or life.......

these are just ramblings of these things, lol...

they are not written as absolutes, but rather as absolutes of one that lead to absolutes of many, as how can absolutes of all become as joined, for understandings to be as created, if all do are not encouraged to speak them......

there is no stupidity, lol.....or all is stupid!

whole truth must apply across a whole spectrum, or it is discarded or seen a partial truth.....

if my daughter feels pain, to me that is an absolute, then if there is "more i see", it can be ADDED ON TOP OF "there is pain", never disregarding the first absolute, or there is great disregardence of many things others feel as having no merit, lol.........

there are absolutes of absolutes, and if they are found, NO UNHAPPINESS CAN EXIST, but how has this theory ever been taught within the world as a "test" of what is "believed" lol....

if there is unrest, it is good, and try to envoke questions to look for more....

if there is depression, then it is good, and tries to envoke looking within for more.....

if depression is taught and looked at as a negative, then it shall prosper or grow in this "negative" fashion.....

is pms as bad...if it is addressed as such, then it will grow as such within the person experiencing it, lol......

if it is told known that pms is as given, to make a women expell once a month all the "negatives" built up, for perfect mental health, then there is not "divide created" in the one that has pms....

certainally all pieces of data put together from all ever spoken, all as truth, all as good things, begin to create a greater picture of greater absolutes......

if these absolutes are found, and indeed are TRULY THE GREATEST ABSOLUTES, then the proof is undeniable agreement and happiness, as they are all the same if it is a absolute THAT CREATE ABSOLUTION OF ALL DOUBT......

of course there are many interpretations, BUT ALL AS TRUE LEAD TO GIVE THE GREATEST ABSOLUTION AND KNOWING, lol......

interpretations enforced as laws of "religious truth" and "moral truth", are not greatest absolutes if they do not create a natural wanting, never coming from a demand.....

the heart send a conscious reminder each time any true "absolute is violated" but humans are taught these are as failure and mistakes, lol....

no force is EVER needed to make any other follow what their "own heart" acknowlegde as whole truth, lol....

is it painful to admit absolutes, lol.....

indeed if there has been constant conditioning of only "good" words or deeds as guides......

true greater absolutes are as breath of air to the mind, and all minds seek truth, and if any mind come to live in an unknowing state, it was for the purpose to create a NEED for more knowing......

it is the designed mortal way of propulsion of "will to move" to attain what each is here to attain......experience turned into all wisdom in the time of all wisdom

all absolutes are thought to be as taken from expereince, but this "experience of past" alone, only guide with biased emotion....

in my life, if i have met 6 old people, and each was as wise, having great compassion and wisdom and eloquence, then naturally my "proposed" or "first instinct" of absolute will be that all old people are as wise and great, so any met that are not as this, will be seen as "defective", or as LESS, certainally not as equal to the others referenced by memory, lol.......

this is how the the brain base all truth, on good alone, lol......

is this an absloute......ABSOLUTELY NOT

but in this same pattern the human brain determine absolutes, keeping it from seeing "outside" it's own single experience, and from developing greater wisdom......

the greatest way to create "less sight" is to be taught even just by reaction that "good" is what is as best......

there is no life without good and bad, and bad is just the step before the next step of another good......

if all the ways i was treated as a child, determine the way that i wish to treat my child, then this as the "good" directive of the conscious mind, will bring forth from me all as reactions willed to be as "opposite reactions" of what was bad, all based soley on what i did not like from my past, lol....

this is an absolute to create more of the same, even with greater sensitivity to "bad", creating soon an ego maniac that hates all and any that do not give what is wanted, lol.....

the very thing that kept the parent of the parent from seeing more wisdom needed to not pass these on to the next generation, and within the child, all reactions of the parent, create this, creating even less possibility of the child using all things as positive data for learning, and "negative" to be despised, so no learning, as what learn without comparisons?

the more "negative" that is hated, the less learning potential in the child, and nothing is happy if it cannot easily learn from "negative", as many, many, many things that will ALWAYS happen that can be seen as "negative", lol..........

negative is only a perception, and this perception can be erased, without much difficulty in children, but in adults, it is as changing the very essence of oneself, like seperating the skin from the body, lol......

total unbalance of thought judging all as good and bad HAS NO POSSIBILITY of creating balance in sight to problem solve, so no capabiltity of passing this into anything else.....

judging all things as good and bad is as to remove one eye from oneself, and wonder why the same problems happen over and over, lol.....

it is being looked at thru only one eye, creating only reception of half of the data into oneself, which ALL is needed to solve with finality...

so indeed, the same inert unseen gravitation to half perception of "good" as the only beneficial thing is followed, and what guided my parents is also guiding me, and why the parent eventually comes to see they are creating more of the same, just different physical manifestations and environment, and it only appears "different".......

indeed, the very "unbalanced thought process" that my parents used, i am using, if i am using the "principle" of trying to create "what i do not want", as viewed thru my "own eyes"......

if i wish to be wise, why will i become as stupid?

because all data that i percieve to not be as "wise" i shall leave out, lol.....

only allowing little in, to be churned into wisdom.....

it is an absolute that if i don't expell breath, i shall die.....

it is an absolute that if i don't expell waste, i shall die......

it is an absolute, that if the brain refuse all data except what is percieved as "good", it shall wither, and then die........

the brain needs absolutes, solid thinking that has no way of creating ANYTHING that is not wished, but only by processing all data as good, and after much time of conditioning that "bad emotions felt indicate "bad data", then this converting to hearing all data will be most painful, as one is not used to really "hearing" this half of data, lol.......

a balanced brain open to all data can be had, increasing perception to limits unknown, but indeed the path to arrive at such a place is frought with the pain of what is needed to be accepted that was for a time ignored, and this builds up just as waste in the body if not expelled, lol......

mirror mirror is going thru this now, and even belushi saying he is as "touched" is true, just heard thru a "negative" filter, turning it not into more wisdom, but as less, lol.......

does not each one stike out somehow with the thought that all truth is truth if it "agree" with what is already known, lol......

this is as a brain, that has "all ability" to absorb and hold more data than even a computer, as the computor came from OUR MINDS, but something block this absorbtion of all data, limiting so much so, that after a time, there is no "alive feeling" which is created totally by a mind that has nothing new left to learn, lol...

all it sees after some time is "what is not liked"

all learning is as first as learning good things, then going into "avoiding bad things" or "painful emotions" but indeed, this cannot continue forever, as to continue to live to only "avoid pain" narrows the perspective daily, until so small that all feeling of "life" is gone, and there is no knowing what is causing ones own unhappiness, lol......

well these are all just places traveled in the mind, and are written as such, and if they have any meaning, or no meaning at all, this is of no consequence that i try to control, but rather just speak all as a fool, lol.....

indeed all things are possible, even good and bad "as one" and are just the ways my brain travels thru the maze that bring to more.......

if there is one thought from the mind that one thinks is not important, based most on what is percieved as good or best for oneself, from some preconcieved destination place of what is finality of good, than how much data is the brain not hearing, or MISSING..........

the brain provides all data to be happy, but half is left out because of predisposition and perpetuated "taught ideas" that it is to be as controlled, chucking out what is as not good or some even thinking it as "evil", lol.....

a divided brain or house indeed, that has no choice but to come to misery of failure of happiness from only hearing "half of all data".......

has this ever created peace for mankind, lol...

than it cannot be the "right way", lol.....

people are never taught ALL DATA IS OF THE GREATEST ESEENCE AND TRUTH, but rather all "good" data is the only true data, lol....

how is this balanced, lol.....

please....if i build a ship, and call it unsinkable, wishing to believe so, for it is what i WANT it to be, and indeed many have put GREAT and hear not the many that dispute this claim, and try to show reasons why it is not, then it shall sink, lol.......

indeed, it is not my desire to create absolutes for any other, or say an absolute is as what is and to be follwed for any other human being, as all are free and walking the perfect path, as the path is the path, a slong as that is the one most wished, but if the path create unhappiness, then something within the perception one has while "walking it" is not seen, as all humans have the ability to be completely happy at al times of the whole picture or whole truth is seen.......

the path be one of misery and doubt and pain, or one of happiness, and love and bliss, and these things any can see from all human experience mean as nothing, unless they are FELT, but if indeed there are questions and thoughts that spur direction of thoughts to places never considered, than this is what to me all true friends are meant to do together, some calling it discussion, some as debate, some as arguments, lol.....

but this allowed and encouraged no doubt causes greater understanding, which soon lead to seeing we are all really friends, and even family.......

peace

lol......ah, a man with a sense of humor, lol...

indeed, all mean well, and speak only from all data known at any time, lol.....

"god" can be proven to be what any wish to prove it to be, lol.....

hell, my car can be proven to be my greatest "god", lol...

peace

Your car can be proven to be, BUT!!
Your car has to have a maker, right?
How did we come about?
Why cant we see the be=reeze, but feel it?
Why cant we see current, but feel?
Yes, we can see the effects of them all, but can we see them NO!!
We breathe naturally, we can't live under water without support.
The flowers has different colors and shades, mankind didn't paint them
We have the sun which burns over 27billion degrees, mankind is not supporting its energy.

Now, with all of that said and lots more can be talked about, where is GOD?
He is right in front of you as an active spiritual force, no shape, no image, he made us the way he likes, in his own creative immage.
Can you clap with hand?
Can you run with one leg or no support?
Can you cross a busy street with no eyes?
Well, we need them, all, who gave them to us, mankind? and if so, who gave them what they have?

so what if they offend, lol...

does this mean they are not good words, and do not lead to more understanding, lol...

no book alone can facilitate any belief that i have, as they all come from a limitless supply of comparisons as seen and heard each day, and from absolutes of truth applying across all spectrums of any logic, and these are only accessed from within oneself, and created from hearing all beings as equals, and if there is some perspective that i do not believe in "god", than perhaps you may read my post again, as this is not the total essence of what is written, lol.....

god in the sense of something greater than myself is only each person that i meet, not someone in the sky having a face and dictating power over all as one being......

each have a "greater self" or original creation that whisper all to the mind from beyond the veil of mortal, or flesh....

indeed it does not appear you have even met your god, as you speak of "him" in some third person, and indeed, does not your text say you are to become as one with "him".....

there is no original self that whisper from a "holy" or good and bad perspective, as all from "there" or the higher dimension is as DATA.....

do you propose to guide back to commandments, when you have not even heard all the words written, and only based your hearing on holy and not holy....

a holy sight is one that human minds use......

you speak to me in reaction after passing all my words thru your filter of "holy" and "not holy" perspective.....

go and wash yourself from this mortal perspective, then return, and we can speak of more truth.......

god is wisdom....

satan is ignorance.....

who does not emcompass both for a time, until all ignorance that created a "need" to know more brings to more wisdom, and the cycle never stop, and is always repeating, eating all as wisdom of food for eternity, in this world, and in the new world to soon come, as created by all man himself......

"god" is only all wisdom hidden in the heart of each being, accessed after hearing how......

why has none ever seen the face of god....

because "god" only be "all truth", and if "all truth" take the form of a physical body, then one does not SEE all truth, rather it can only hear it, as the "all truth" is inside, tucked away, and only the face of a mortal is seen.......

if any come to completion within themself, they are no longer of a god or satan, or of good and bad, but only as "I AM", an immortal energy that is limitless in shape and form.......

Yet another issue I have with the ideas within this thread is the idea that ALL is CREATED.

It has previously been indicated that through seed and insemination(procreation),life continues. I don't consider that to be "creation", I consider that to be secondary or "procreation". Therefore Nothing, we know of, that lives today was actually "created". At this point all life is the product of procreation, not creation. Of course I use the word "live" to mean life and not in the dormant planetary sense.

Now some believe that there had to be a creative force at work that actually created all that exists; living and otherwise. This idea trickles down and ends up meaning that there must have been a male and female human (and of every other breeding animal) created at some point.

Here are the questions that go along with that idea. If a supreme being, a "god the icon" or a "creator, the essence" actually created all that exists why would this creative force not just "create" the univers as it wanted? Why include "procreation". Why include evolution?

The answer to that kind of question might rule out the "god the icon" being, for one reason. It indicates that the being is either not as all-powerful and in control as believed, or that the "god the icon" didn't want to be bothered and so created a way for the universe to be self-sustaining without intervention and possibly without any further consideration.

Of course with another kind of creator, let's say "creator the essence" procreatin might well be a logical conclusion. For example, if "creator the essence" were simply some kind of organizing force, without emotional attributes and without any real ulterior motive, other than to organize, than such a force may well create the kind of universe we understand to be ours today.

Here is where there must be differences attributed to belief systems. Mixing and Matching of various god and creator, myths, theories and ideas do not mix well and only serve to confuse both philisophical and theological thought.

For example: We cannot "ALL" be created by a creator and believe in procreation and evolution.

We cannot accept that nature oversees all forms of procreation and still believe that we are created by the hand of an intelligent being who watches, directs and interjects via emotional responce at any given moment.

We cannot proclaim that we are more than the sum of our human parts if "creation" was not how we came to exist.

If choice, and will exist, without interferrence by an outside intelligent force; then procreation is not even a director, but rather an occurence of happenstance, dependent on choice, will, and nature, inclusive of its evolution.

So for these reasons, I say, the kind of pantheism spoken of in these threads is simply another religious choice and not a philosophy to determine the 'NATURE' of our universe, our world or even our being.

Further, DavidBen, like you, many want to believe in the inherant goodly nature of humanity. But confounding belief systems the way that we do by confusing knowns, conditions, and even word definitions, will NEVER bring mankind together.

That is exactly why, I think it would be wise to begin to SEPARATE new terms away from old ones.
Stop using the words god, gods, goddesses. To get away from old views and introduce new ones, views meant to unite, not integrate. We have to begin again or all we do is mask a big problem.

Davidben, you're thoughtful, but you mix and match theologies, as does Abra and the designer Christians and many others. We don't need another religion, RELIGION DOES NOT BRING US TOGETHER. What we need is another way to view the possiblities of who we are, where we came from, and why we're here. We need to ask these questions in a way that makes us all work to find the same answers. They don't have to be answers that will stagnate the mind, afterall we KNOW that the universe is changing, we only hope to learn a bit about how in order to promote the survival of our species.

We are a species and if we are more than the human parts of our being, then we are more because of a 'belief' that we are PART of a species, that needs to continue. Each of us can play a role in that belief, more so than through any religious belief.

Evolution of a Unicellular Organism into a Multicellular Species


Starting from single celled animals, each of which has the capability to reproduce there is no sex in the sense that we think of the term. Selective pressure has been observed to convert single-cellular forms into multicellular forms. A case was observed in which a single celled form changed to multicellularity.

Boxhorn, a student of Boraas,writes:

Coloniality in Chlorella vulgaris Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella. "

Boraas, M. E. 1983. Predator induced evolution in chemostat culture. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102.
from Observed Instances of Speciation


Just think about it :)

VERY intersting data. Thanks for sharing it.

Redykeulous:






Exactly what do you think we create?

You know that old joke about a scientist telling god he had the answers to the universe and so god said – ok, then create a man. And the scientist began to gather dirt and god said – oh no you don’t , make your own dirt.

Whatever it is you think we create,
do you consider that on the same level as a god or perhaps on the same level as a universal creative force, what I’ve called “creator, the essence”?

How exactly to you reconcile these different kinds of creative “ideas”?

Those would be my questions back to you.

By the way, Hi, nice to hear from you.