hi Krimsa, genisis is problamatic for the WELL trained eye, it does have problems, i just had no problems with the above i stated.

my problems start with the way i see god handling the situation in the garden and acting surprised that Adam and eve had eaten of the fruit and then god saying to the "other Gods" what shall we do now that they know both good and evil and on from there. Also the flood gives me tremendous problem also but i will make another post for that so it can be talked of by all and not just "debated".

your thinking is as keen as mine on this Abra, but it also for me and you is futile. Even though i read I'm not reading to gain any more wisdom, just knowledge. so for them and me it backfires, but as to the others your correct if they are searching for an answer to their lives, it's a great way to get someone interested. that's how i originally got suckered in by a friend giving me Hal Lindsey's book the late great planet earth, and it leads you to reading more and more ad nauseum.

That’s fair. I don’t know I guess the 4 day, first day, thing just confused me. But, it’s not solely that. If it was only that, eh, I probably would have chosen something else but genesis seems like it has no continuity to it? Its doesn’t flow in any sort of pattern. It seems like that game you would play in creative writing class where one person might write a paragraph and then you have to pass the paper on and continue the story? Like someone said, no, that doesn’t make sense, so I will just start anew. Timing on a couple aspects I’m really having trouble with. It’s not consistent at all. Did these people live in like a different reference point as far as when things happened? How long were their days? How many hours? How much faith do I need to have or is there a biblical "key" I can borrow?

Well, since god placed us in a time space continuum we are stuck with each day having to be taken literally as being a 24 hr period as funches points out on his thread. even though the bibble states that a day is like a thousand years to god it does not state that a day for man is any other than a 24 hr period of time. meaning that god's time is extended and can be thousands of yrs or longer, but mans is shorter - 1 day = 24 hrs. are you getting at the life spans of the early man thing here as compared to now?

Oh no, I was just skim reading and people lived a very long time so that was strange. Here is another sort of weird genesis thing.

Okay first we have trees being created before man was created.

Genesis 1:11-12 (King James Version)

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

Alrighty, now we have man beeing created before trees and shrubs.

Genesis 2:4-9 (King James Version)

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Hmmm. These people are a little inconsistent in all this creationism.

here again i see no problem it is like stating that, you. i , moved to a place where trees and flowers etc., already existed and decided to til the ground and plant a garden with fruit trees and alot of food plants etc to nourish us, so that we did not have go searching to find such sustinence beyond where we settled and lived.
at least that was my summation of whats said there.

I dont know. Its still seems a little out of order to me. I guess part of it might be how we are interpreting what they are saying. Maybe Im expecting it to be linear.

i agree its hard to be "linear"{ when it comes to Genisis.

if each human born was cast from heaven to hell by the act of birth, then this would change the perception of many things in biblical text........

if god is each ones own "greater" self from another dimension, this would allow many things to be seen differently as well.........

if god was only the truth of what ones pre-determined path was, and this is known by each ones own "self" from another realm, then this would change many perceptions as well.........

if mans walk upon the earth was also as gathering data for comsumptiom, learning, and not just as physical food, then many things make more completed sense.........

if each human born is as a tree, having two sides as a coin, then also many things have more meaning.........

if all satan is was the potential of the mind of men to create "bad", while learing and advancing thru time, then this would change many percpetions once had........

if all "god" was said to be was only the truth each one contain a piece of within oneself, as each one live a life unique and with a immortal purpose as well as mortal purpose, then greater purpose is contained within all as well, then this would change many percieved meanings within text........

if adam and eve are a description of all men and women for the sake of speaking of one to describe all, then this also change much perception once had...........

if the tree of knowledge of good and evil only be the conscious mind one NEEDS to use to secure many things for self survival, then this also would change the perception of many other meanings, and..............

if the tree of life was only the "heart" of all beings or sometimes also called as the subconscious mind, or the garden within, that whisper from another realm ones own destiny or truth, then this would change MANY THINGS once percieved in ways that cut may others out of having good purpose..........

i am in no way a proponent reading or not reading of scripture, and do not state such things for the intent of proving any text correct or not correct, but rather to prove that all possiblities are possible, and many possibilities have never been contemplated as possible, if they go against some personal interpretation once heard, and rather to voice that all questions and words are beneficial no matter what and who they come from, and can be the only thing that lead to more understanding or wisdom..........

Thank you for the wise words and I agree

ahhh - i see the problem Krimsa, you are reading to parallel accounts. the first is a quick overview of the creation, and the next is a more detailed statement of the same thing. Some take this to be 2 seperate creation stories altogether, but i've never seen it that way, thats why your having some confusion. the first chapter is the quick overview, and the second is the more detailed view leading up to the sin issue with the serpent and the tree. and it continues from there. If you seperate chpts 1 and 2 it will be easier to understand. Many make this mistake of reading it as a continueous thing. but really only up to the first 3 or four verses of gen. chpt 2 are of or about the quick overview of creation. starting at verse 4 chpt 2 - is the beginning of a detailed look at gods doings with what is briefly stated in chpt. 1 - hope this helps a little.

wisdom cannot be a creation of one, but rather each contain fragments of one large truth, and all being part of one galaxie of truth being united create wisdom.......

Just for whatever it's worth (not meant to start an argument), many scholars believe that in those early days those lifetimes there were supposed to be in 'years' were probably actually recored as months(or "moonths")

In other words, it was much more likely that they kept track of their age by cycles of the moon, than by actually counting years. There are many reasons for this theory. Men were simply more likely to record time using the moon's phases in ancient times.

So, many scholars believe that somewhere along the way there was simply a mis-translation or mis-understanding of precisely what cycles were being counted.

The important thing is that if you divide those ages by a factor of about 10 or 12 you get pretty 'normal' human life spans. Those are precisely the factors you'd get if you accidently thought that 'months' (or moonths) were years.

Some numbers might have been bad counts too, People are known to make mistakes. They didn't have the modern numerals we have today either. So how literal you take those ages is up to you.

I agree abra, if moses was the one writing the 5 books, he would have been very well acquainted with egyptian methods of time keeping, many think in modern terms of the gregorian caledar.

I did none of those things in this thread. I should have won the debate, but it's okay that I didn't. I know in my heart and mind that the judges were unfair. That happens, the judges are just people too.

abra.......

or life spans were indeed as they were pronounced, as other text specify that life spans were shortened due to wickedness, and even pronounced them to be decreased to about 120 years........

also seems ironic that there was also later described in text to be a time in future that man would live a thousand years in peace on the earth, as something of a millenium, which specify a 1000 year period as well.........

seems a forever churning wheel of data contained within data, that could have sooooooooo many meanings, lol........

Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3 is the story of creation from God's perspective. Genesis 2:4-25 is the story of creation from Adam perspective. That has been known and accepted in Judaism and Christianity since their beginnings.

SPIDER........every man win with every word spoken.......

if there is winning for one, then who win but one, but if all words allow each one to SEE MORE, then all win, and such is the greatest battle of the mind, to accept what is outside oneself, but the more accepting of things outside oneself, build greater wisdom and purpose each time, and strength of character and wisdom is increased, not decreased......

the battle to allow any being to percieve more lead thru pain of accepting no doubt, but such feelings seen as a friend instead of an enemy, lead to ever increasing wisdom even unto an expidential rate, created even more each time this feeling is embraced as a lover, and not as a foe, and this provide the geatest peace of understanding for all in the end......

your correct DB, after just now re-reading further i also ran into that which you state and have to apologize as to my thinking, it cannot be that it was moon cycles and that they could be divided by 10 or 12 for if god shortens the time only 40 days later, then that would mean moon cycles would make man to live for only 12 yrs. been along time since I've read Genesis, my bad.

so I'll have to go back to taking it literally till i find something to convince me otherwise.

Adam and Eve were made perfect, which means they had perfect genes. Their genes would have allowed them to live extremely long lifespans. As the years past, their genes and the genes of their children would mutate, until such a time when human life spans were limited 120 years. Longevity is definitely genetic, if you look at the families of people who live very long lives, you will see that many, if not most family members live very long lives.