Awe Feral ... you are such a sweet tenderhearted sister ....
but it's ok dear.. ..no offense taken ... everyone means well

May All Be Blessed.....just poppin in for a sec...

no......not everyone means well, EACH speak TRUTH that since you MOST WISH TO HEAR PRAISE YOU CANNOT HEAR.........

your family perception of "christian" says just what you think of anything that does not DO AS YOU THINK, OR LOOK AS THE MINDS PICTURE........

is it not obvioius that every word spoken about what your IDEA of christion is EXCLUDE ANY ACTION OR PERSON OUTSIDE OF THAT.......

the time is short dear sister........HEED THE REST OF THE WORDS THAT COME FROM YOUR OWN TEXT YOU PROFESS TO BELIEVE, that since all others in your church ignore, YOU IGNORE AS WELL.......

this is only SELECTIVE HEARING...........

i am sure you believe i am your worst adversary, but indeed, each and very desire you have NATURALLY comes from god, as it was said GOD REST IN THE HEARTS OF ALL MEN........

it was also said that NONE CAN RESIST THE WILL OF GOD.....

it was also said that THE GREATEST DESIRE OF ANY BEING IS GIVEN BY GOD........

how can one teach to try to change and purify ones desire.....

THIS SHOW NO FAITH IN GOD AT ALL, AND IS "NO FAITH" THAT TRY TO MAKE ITSELF PURE.........THE END THEREOF IS DESTRUCTION, WHICH YOU ARE ALREADY FELLING MORE EACH DAY.........

i shall be the best friend you ever had when you HEAR the words spoken.......peace

Continue in that same Spirit too.

I keep saying...I don't want just a touch from God but the abiding presence... invite God to stay.

If it says walk in the spirit then it must be true...IT IS POSSIBLE.

Yeaaaaa.....

why do not all your words match your text.........how can you teach and preach others are hellbound and then not answer their questions......

is this not to judge?

Grow up? Because we, (I) believe differently than you?

As for the mess I have gotten myself into? I take that. But I am also having to take responsibility for those that do not.

As for the death thing......it is talking about death after we die here.. this natural life on earth.
Speaking of the life promised by God when we leave this place we call earth. It also refers to death of the spirit, the heart, the soul.

Kat

...It's already a done deal....


But that's where you're wrong.

You see, this is the problem with a religion that wants to have it's cake and eat it too.

The idea is that the biblcal God supposedly knows everything from the beginning. Therefore, he knows your choices before he even starts out.

So I refuse to allow Jesus to be nailed to a cross for my sins. I'm refusing to accept it BEFORE it ever happened, because God supposedly knows my choices BEFORE any of this ever happened.

Debbie: Well I am truly sorry abra....but you are wrong....When God decided to send Jesus to earth to live as a man....He "DID" already knowing everything that was going to happen to his beloved Son. The only time God did turn away from Jesus was when all the sin was coming unto his Son....For God could not look upon all of it.

If you want to have your cake and eat it too, you've got to go with the flow. Nothing is a 'done deal' for a God who can see into the future.

I really don't care what MorningSong or anyone else beleives. But if they're going to be advertising, I see nothing wrong with asking questions.

Why should I want to believe that the biblical picture of God is true?

Debbie: Well again you are wrong....because my sweet it is a done deal....When God chose for his Son to take the sin of the world in order for all to have everlasting life.....It is a done deal. And the problem with you asking questions of any Christian is not because you truly seek the answer...because you don't.....You have an agenda abra...and you questions to me are a joke and a set up in order to you to fulfill you agenda.

What's the motivation behind it? It's a religion that claims that I've fallen from grace from my creator and theres no way to get back into grace without accepting that he nails someone to a pole for my sake.

Why would I want to believe in that with 'childlike faith'?

To me it seems like a terrible thing to want to believe.

I wouldn't want to believe in the story unless I had no other choice.

Debbie

There is a way back abra....you just "CHOOSE" to not accept it...which is fine your choice.....but again this supposed question you ask is not to seek the truth as we see it...but again to fulfill your agenda of disproving...with one problem with what your doing....you will never...Because as much as you choose to not believe I and others are stronger in their beliefs.....And the only way to the Father is through the Son....this is my belief......and eventually you will have no choice...but to live with the consequences of your actions....but again all your choice/decisions.

Because JB not until the end when Jesus comes and the Book of Life is opened will the sin of death apply. Even those already dead will be included. And did you take a survey of every Christian to see if they are afraid of death....I am not....

When human beings mourn whether your a Christian or not impo it's for selfish reasons of "you" not seeing that person again. Like you said there time is over......It's those left that feel the loss....

david ben has pretty eyes...
My cousin is a preist and he threw tree bark at me...talk about childish..

doesn't faith no matter what you have faith in requires one to believe as in the innocence of a child ..just venture into a casino and you will find such a massive collection of those with such a look of faith upon their faces that you will ever find in any church .. probably why most religions preach against gambling

feracat......

if one thinks the TRUTH will not be proven, then one is decieved, as indeed it will have power.......

if one has power in words, is this not the sign in words....

where are the power in your words, but rather demand of control and accusation..........

the truth is ALL THAT MATTERS.........

Answer: If one knows the TRUTH then "He" will not allow deceit to creep in. Which gives the power where it rightly belongs to the Lord Christ Jesus.

All my words are given to me through Jesus and with prayer or it is not put down. There is only one in control....and not my place to either judge or accuse.

if morningsong or any other human post, then ALL reactions are what comes naturally, and ARE GOOD, or FREE EXPRESSION IS CONTROLLED, and WHOM shall be the judge of what words be good, as is not this more of the same then........

what words should be judged then as NOT GOOD......

the one whom cast the dagger IS A DAGGER THEMSELF, but what is wrong with daggers, as a dagger bring forth MORE truth, since the dagger is ALWAYS what has been resisted and RUN FROM, so never heard.........


how can one accuse and not in accussing be guilty of the same, lol...........


Answer: When it is done with a mean spirit....

No, I don't just "Choose" to not accept it. That's as far from the truth as you can possible get.

You know my history yet you "Choose" to ignore it. You know that I was once a devout Christian and that I believed that the Bible was the word of God. I believed it with childlike innocence because I had been told by my parents and all the other adults around me that it was true. Why would I now believe them?

I did believe them, and therefore I believe the book was true. In fact, I believed that it was true so much that I decided to learn it inside and out so that I could help others understand it.

After all, in spite of the fact that all the adults around me were telling me that it was true, they were also questioning it amongst themselves! Including the preachers! Even the preachers found it impossible to give answers to some questions. Several of my uncles were preachers, and the would often invite over other preachers for dinner or whatever, then they would sit around and discuss biblical things. It was clear to me that they did not all agree on what the book had to say.

Well, even that didn't deter me!!!

I still believed that it was the word of God and I decided to look into the matter myself. I was taught to believe that the Bible contains answers to EVERYTHING. Clearly that's not true, but I was taught to believe that. So at the time I did believe it.

I was determined to find the answers to the HARD question. YES the HARD questions!!!

You're damn right!!!

I want the answers to the HARD questions. Not the pansy questions that anyone can answer using just plain common sense and no Bible at all.

Well, I dove into the project with absolute sincerity and absolute BELIEF. I was an ABSOLUTE BELIEVER!

I wasn't looking to prove it wrong. On the contrary I was looking to explain what it has to be true!!!

I was looking for explanations of all its apparent inconsistencies. I was looking for the KNOWLEDGE to be able to help others understand it and find the answers to the question they seemed to be confused about.

Well, I studied it and discovered that it can't be made to make sense. The more I studied the more absurd I realized it is. I had "NO CHOICE" but to reject it as a completely inconsistent picture of a deity that doesn't even come close to displaying the Characteristics that it is supposed to have.

That was my very HONEST SINCERE conclusion.

Now you don't want to here my honest sincere testimony because my conclusions aren't what you want to believe.

I'm truly sorry about that. I'm just here to SHARE what I have discovered to be the TRUTH.

I'm giving my living TESTIMONY.

You think I'm out to prove that the Bible is wrong.

No way. I'm not out to prove it's wrong at all. I can already see that it's wrong. There's no need to prove it. It has done a fine job of that all on its own.

I'm just trying to SHARE my discovering of this FACT with any reasonable person who is interesting in hearing the TRUTH.

Why would I want to do anything else at this stage?

The book is totally inconsistent with it's own stories.

1. A supposedly all-powerful God is at war with a lowly angel that he can't keep under control.

2. A supposedly all-wise and all-loving God tells people to stone their unruly children to death instead of giving them the wisdom of how to raise them properly.

3. A God who supposedly loves the world so much that he's willing to give in only begotten son to save them actually drowns out all but a few people at one time.

4. A supposedly all-wise Fatherly-figure God who can intervene at any moment allowed the world to get so far out of hand that he had to drown it out in the first place. That's not a consistent picture of what an all-wise Fatherly-figure would do.

5. The book blames mankind for being responsible for bringing sin and death into the world, but we now know that it has always been this way long before mankind ever came onto the scene.

6. Jesus Christ had a totally different persona and agenda from the God of Abraham yet he was supposed to be the same God.

7. The very fact that an all-wise, all-loving God would require blood sacrifices to pay for man's disobedience of his rules is not in-line with what it means to be all-wise, and all-loving. There's nothing wise about telling men that if they slaughter an animal you'll forgive them for having disobeyed you. All you'd be doing then is saying that it's ok to disobey as long as they have lambs to slaughter. A genuinely WISE God would have had men do something much more productive to gain repentance of disobedience. Like maybe insist that he learn how to play a musical instrument and go around sinning spiritual hymns to 100 people for every thought of sin that he has. And sing to 1000 people for every sin he actually commits. Not THAT would have been a WISE God!

8. An all-wise God doesn't solve all his problems using violent methods. That's not a display of wisdom. Any thug can do that.

9. An all-loving God doesn't allow entire civilizations to be lost from his grace for 400 years and then treat the finally offspring generation like as if they are at fault. An all wise intervening God who is a "Fatherly-figure" would have acted more responsible in his parenting duties.

10. No deity who plays Hide & Seek can claim to be righteous by making people guess which religion might be the true religion and punish all the people who guess wrong for having guessed wrong. That's neither wise nor righteous.

There's nothing about these stories that indicates that they were written by an all-wise, all-loving God who is a fatherly figure. One the contrary these stories reek of man's stupidity and arrogance. All problems are solved via violence and threats. So typical of men. So untypical of what we should expect from an all-loving all-wise God.

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to try to convince anyone that these stories are true.

And once I've come to that conclusion I had no choice but to ask myself, "Why the hell am I believing them then???"

So no, I'm not out to prove that the Bible is wrong. It's already proven that it can't be true on it's own. There's no need to prove that it's wrong. I'm just trying to share my own personal experience with the mythology and how I was able to come to the realization of truth.

I'm just sharing my own personal testimony and trying to help others see what I already know to be true.

Because I know abra......He doesn't care what Christians believe because remember he was a Christian at one time and fell away. What he asks is strictly to twist and turn to fit "his" way....but it does nor will ever be "his" way because it just doesn't work that way. Now people can slice it, dice it, and twist it and turn it....but it will never change what "JUST IS"

It is not a case of MS post not being up for critique.....of course it is...What I am against is it being done with mean heart.....which it was.

I have always always answered every question to the best of my ability...but understand that you can answer it a 100 different ways and people like abra will never say oh I see.....so what is the point....It is always going to be at least as I see it....The Christian way....and the abra/panthiest way. And this is fine if done in love and respect....which is where a lot of people lack imo. I believe as I do because of experiences of the Lord speaking to my heart...and frankly I would no more deny him ever. For me this is just how it is. Now again I say, everyone believe as they wish. Put out the information and let people take from it as they will. But call my God, His Son Christ and my Bible a myth or stories written by men and you will have me following you each and every time. And this is not because God ever ever needs me to defend him...but rather a slap in my face as well as I believe to my Lord.


If people ask questions that are truly seeking then this is sweet......but for ones that have a vendetta against God because of their circumstances then this to me is never acceptable. If an individual doesn't believe for whatever reasons....ok......but again don't shove your beliefs because you think that God failed you some how.....God answers prayers in his time....never never in ours...and to get mad at that and turn away....well just sad to me.imo

And just so you know....never have not answered a question put forth....and I find more that people don't accept the answer....but imo that is their problem.

My Faith is unwavering not to be touched by a living soul on this planet. And my personal relationship with Him, gives me my strength, my wisdom, my words, my healings, my heart, my kindness, and my forgiveness.

Because I know abra......He doesn't care what Christians believe because remember he was a Christian at one time and fell away. What he asks is strictly do twist and turn to fit "his" way....but it does nor will ever be "his" way because it just doesn't work that way. Now people can slice it, dice it, and twist it and turn it....but it will never change what "JUST IS"

It is not a case of MS post not being up for critique.....of course it is...What I am against is it being done with mean heart.....which it was.

I have always always answered every question to the best of my ability...but understand that you can answer it a 100 different ways and people like abra will never say oh I see.....so what is the point....It is always going to be at least as I see it....The Christian way....and the abra/panthiest way. And this is fine if done in love and respect....which is where a lot of people lack imo. I believe as I do because of experiences of the Lord speaking to my heart...and frankly I would no more deny him ever. For me this is just how it is. Now again I say, everyone believe as they wish. Put out the information and let people take from it as they will. But call my God, His Son Christ and my Bible a myth or stories written by men and you will have me following you each and every time. And this is not because God ever ever needs me to defend him...but rather a slap in my face as well as I believe to my Lord.


If people ask questions that are truly seeking then this is sweet......but for ones that have a vendetta against God because of their circumstances then this to me is never acceptable. If an individual doesn't believe for whatever reasons....ok......but again don't shove your beliefs because you think that God failed you some how.....God answers prayers in his time....never never in ours...and to get mad at that and turn away....well just sad to me.imo

And just so you know....never have not answered a question put forth....and I find more that people don't accept the answer....but imp that is their problem.

My Faith is unwavering not to be touched by a living sould on this planet. And my personal relationship with Him, gives me my strength, my wisdom, my words, my healings, my heart, my kindness, and my forgiveness.

Or not--because when dogma runs out of answers it generally runs to hide under a blanket of faith.

I couldn't believe in the Bible today even if I wanted to.

It's no longer a choice for me. It's proven itself to be false and self-inconsistent beyond any hope of repair.

It can't be true. Period.

Why abra because he didn't answer your prayers when you thought he should of....hmmmmm

If that's what you believe then you don't know me at all.

I didn't "fall" away. That implies that I simply didn't have enough faith, or that I chose to disobey the biblical God and go off on my own.

Neither of those accusations are true.

I didn't "fall" away at all. On the contrary, I did everything I could possibly think of to salvage the religion.

What happened is that the religion is unsalvable. It can't be justified. It's so full of holes it just plain doesn't float.

I can't even be used as a life raft. It's a totally hopeless mythology that cannot be true. It's far to self-inconsistent, as well as being inconsitent with the real world.

To say that I 'fell' away from it is utter nonsense.

I must have spent over 15 years of my life (maybe even 20) trying to salvage it. I gave it EVERY POSSIBLE CHANCE. I even made up lies to try to support it!

I finally had to face that fact that if I have to lie to support it I'm really going off the deep end.

I finally had to surrender to the fact that it can't be true.

In hindsight, I can only say that I'm still in total shock and amazment at how determined I was to salvage it.

This is why I ask everyone today,... WHY?

Why do we even want to believe such a negative picture of a God that has all of mankind fallen from grace????

It's an utterly negative picture if you just stop and think about it with a truly objective view.

According to the Bible the VAST MAJORITY of people will NOT make it into heaven.

Why the hell would we even want to believe in such a negative depressing picture of our relationship with our creator.

Give Pantheism a shot!

No there's a benevolent picture of God!

I'm not saying that pantheism is true. But I will say this much, I have yet to find any reason why it can't be true!!!

Not so with the Biblical picture. There are more reasons why the Biblical picture can't be true than Carter has pills.

Gee - you wouldn't want to support this with - oh, let's say, some FACTS. Naw... you're above having to do that.

No.

I just got done telling you.

I can't believe in it because it's totally self-inconsistent with what it claims God is supposed to be like. Plus it totally contradicts itself from one place to the next. It sends extremely mixed messages. It solves all its problems using violence, and it's in complete disagreement with what we know about the real universe.

It can't possible be true.

Even if an intervening God were to do things for me it would have to be an deity that has nothing to do with the Bible because the biblical picture of God can't possibly be true. It's too self-inconsistent and contradictory.

That is very funny. That's what I tell Christians when they talk about Christianity. They have no facts at all. Only a very incomplete, inconsistent, re-written plagiarized forged collection of scriptures they call the word of god.

You cannot prove the Bible is the word of god, and you want Abra to give you facts? About what? You are the one who needs to present your facts because it is you who are making impossible ridiculous unbelievable claims.

You call it faith, and you think that is good enough. And you want facts for those who reject your faith? That's absurd.

JB

Everyone knows that I've been doing precisly that for the past year.

I just gave you a bunch in this very thread. Clearly you aren't interested in FACTS.

You'd rather support a completely unfounded inconsistent myth for some strange reason.

A myth that says that we are all failures and have fallen from grace with our creator. A creator that can do no wrong, even when it tells people to stone their unruly childrend to death, and to judge their neigbors and stone them to death when they sin.

You'd rather support all of that which flies in the face of a truly all-wise all-loving fatherly image of God than face the truth that it's just a superstitious manmade myth.

Strange. Very strange indeed.

You'll ignore all FACTS in favor of supporting this grossly negative picture of a God. A picture that has absolutely no merit at all.