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| Topic: Homosexuals In The Armed Forces? | |
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well to the last comment. First I am a veteran of Desert Storm and am here to say democracy doesn't play in the military. The military is (by definition) a dictatorship. It has to be to work. Second in a platoon the men have to function like parts of a machine; all working perfectly together. If one part doesn't mesh with the rest the machine breaks down and lives are lost. This will happen if a platioon has a known gay in it. Remember all it has to take is one soldier feeling uncomfortable for the machine to break down. Wether that is fair or not to the Gays is irrelivant. Because that is reality and we can't risk a soldiers life because someone wants to be openley Gay in the military. And by the way "don't ask don't tell" doesn't work gays are found out eventually. On a civilian note I don't have ANYTHING against gays except in the military best post about this by far. it's the truth. say what you will about the people needing to get over being a homophobe, but it's how they feel. If someone has a right to be homosexual. I have a right to see them differently if i want. Prejudice, racism, or anything you want to call it or any other thoughts someone has about another person. They are real. EVERYONE!!! has them EVERYONE!!! the civil ones keep them tucked away in order to not cause problems. This would be a very big problem though, so why make the situation even happen? |
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barstow, First off, I want to salute the war veteran in you. It's by far the ultimate contribution one can make to his country and fellow contrymen. Now back to the debate. When you say that the military is a 'dictatorship' and that Democracy doesn't enter in to the Military equation so to speak, I could only agree if you say that as a figure of speech. In fact, when you say that the military is a 'dictatorship', I would say that the military is given, by decree of the US government and the Congress, and fully within our democratic rule of law system, a vast yet 'limited lattitude' to organize itself under military rather than civilian governance. Inside military governance, authoritative chain of command definitely is the reality as opposed to the consensus reaching approach of civil governance. But, the military governance, and its authoritative COC style within, are both 'subordinated' to civil governance in the end. Otherwise we would live in a 'Military State', where the military would be accountable to no one. Clearly not the case of the US. Suffice it to say that the military Commander in Chief is the official democratically elected representative of all citizens of the US, to whom he is fully accontable in return. So, agreed that one loses certain civilian privileges when entering the military, but none of his RIGHTS. That is where the line is drawn. This is where the Military is subordinated and accountable to the civilian society (government not political). It can run its 'authoritative' Chain of Command to the extent where it doesn't intervene with anyone's fundamental rights, including foreigners whose own countries may not afford the same rights (see Guantanamo and Abou Grahib vs our own civil liberties). Under those rights, and the rule of law which serves to enforce them, the US constitution (whithin which the Military must operate) GUARENTEES everyone a number of fundamental rights and protection. Among those guarentees, everyone has the right of equal treatment, and cannot be discriminated against on the basis of religion, race or sexual orientation. Now 'barstow', don't get me wrong, I am not playing down the very real, and potentially serious issue of sexual orientation 'intolerance' in the military that you bring up. It is real. And it is something that a law, by and of itself, doesn't help address. But unless we push through our political and democratic channels, to change them, 'thems' are the laws to which the military is accountable. The point being, we must reconciliate the two imperatives in the right order. Fundamental rights FIRST, because thats the way it is, but also Military Chain of Command rule, becouse that's the way it is also. That brings us to the domain of creative and functional solutions, where both Fundamental Rights and Chain of Command priciples coexist effectively. That's the challenge, and the gift of all democratic societies. Thanks for your angle barstow. have you or are you in the military? we don't have the same rights i'm sorry. it's sad, but true and needed actually. I won't go into detail, but know it's not how you think. |
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well to the last comment. First I am a veteran of Desert Storm and am here to say democracy doesn't play in the military. The military is (by definition) a dictatorship. It has to be to work. Second in a platoon the men have to function like parts of a machine; all working perfectly together. If one part doesn't mesh with the rest the machine breaks down and lives are lost. This will happen if a platioon has a known gay in it. Remember all it has to take is one soldier feeling uncomfortable for the machine to break down. Wether that is fair or not to the Gays is irrelivant. Because that is reality and we can't risk a soldiers life because someone wants to be openley Gay in the military. And by the way "don't ask don't tell" doesn't work gays are found out eventually. On a civilian note I don't have ANYTHING against gays except in the military best post about this by far. it's the truth. say what you will about the people needing to get over being a homophobe, but it's how they feel. If someone has a right to be homosexual. I have a right to see them differently if i want. Prejudice, racism, or anything you want to call it or any other thoughts someone has about another person. They are real. EVERYONE!!! has them EVERYONE!!! the civil ones keep them tucked away in order to not cause problems. This would be a very big problem though, so why make the situation even happen? MM, you traitor! 
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Fair enough! And that is why I brought this thread to my friend's attention, USAF MovieMadness! He won't be as
juvenile as me arguing his point! Good luck!
Arguing a point? Oh brother! I'm not about to argue over what people feel and whether they are entitled to feel that way. I couldn't make someone change their mind about how they feel, nor would I even attempt to try. What I'm trying to say is that just because a person makes a comment that you disagree with, it doesn't necessarily make them anti-anything. I've always said that no one MUST agree with a gay lifestyle and/or even accept it. However, everyone deserves the right to be treated with dignity and common courtesy. I've seen nothing in the posts to which you are commenting saying otherwise. |
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Edited by
Moviemadness
on
Sun 02/15/09 06:35 AM
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well to the last comment. First I am a veteran of Desert Storm and am here to say democracy doesn't play in the military. The military is (by definition) a dictatorship. It has to be to work. Second in a platoon the men have to function like parts of a machine; all working perfectly together. If one part doesn't mesh with the rest the machine breaks down and lives are lost. This will happen if a platioon has a known gay in it. Remember all it has to take is one soldier feeling uncomfortable for the machine to break down. Wether that is fair or not to the Gays is irrelivant. Because that is reality and we can't risk a soldiers life because someone wants to be openley Gay in the military. And by the way "don't ask don't tell" doesn't work gays are found out eventually. On a civilian note I don't have ANYTHING against gays except in the military best post about this by far. it's the truth. say what you will about the people needing to get over being a homophobe, but it's how they feel. If someone has a right to be homosexual. I have a right to see them differently if i want. Prejudice, racism, or anything you want to call it or any other thoughts someone has about another person. They are real. EVERYONE!!! has them EVERYONE!!! the civil ones keep them tucked away in order to not cause problems. This would be a very big problem though, so why make the situation even happen? MM, you traitor!
how so? OH i forgot the biggest one!! that's a case closer for this entire thing. someone said it's agains the UCMJ, IT IS!!! You can't commit an act of sodomy. What do homosexuals do? omg, no way, it's SODOMY!!!!! case closed. Do people do it? yes, i won't deny it. MANY MANY guys, straight or gay, like oral sex, and it's considered sodomy. we're actually limited to having sex in the missionary position only, without a condom or any type of birth control because we're only supposed to be commiting the act of intercourse for procreation. this is something i hate because they say taht, then give the females birthcontrol and the males condoms for free. imagine that! but that's another issue. i got carried away there. |
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Hey, I'm straight and I enjoy the act of sodomy with consenting females... It's NOT an act exclusive to homosexuals!
MM, you have redeemed yerself! The check's in the mail! |
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when you wake up and a man is sitting on your rack and touching you he gets beaten that is not propaganda Anyone know that in most cases that a male has been raped, it was a straight male that was the rapist? go figure right. it's fact though. it's not done as a sexual act, but as a need to show that they are more powerful than the other person. and arguing about "why do guys always have to show they're more manly then the rest" is retarded. it's basic human/animal instinct to want to be the "alpha male". All this doesn't apply to everyone so don't ***** about "oh, but i know guys that aren't". well they are out numbered by guys that are, so it's more likely to happen then not. i personally would beat the **** out of a guy if i woke up and he was touching me. it's a reaction to me being violated. |
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Oh, no argument there, I am 'quite sure' you know how he thinks. And no I do not have two different ideas as to the comment. But I am gay, so there for I am quite familiar with prejudice and assumptions made about gays. So because you are gay you take any comment that isn't wholeheartedly, outrightly, supportive, and assume that the person is being assumptive? That seems rather short-sighted and assumptive in itself to me. I am beginning to think you have missed what I have said altogether. It's a bit difficult to start out straight, then choose to be gay and be short-sighted, I know both sides of this issue and I know lots of gays and lots of straights. Because of where I have lived my friends are mostly straight, what I know few of are people with a problem with gays in the military or anywhere else for that matter, so of course I am going to say something if the information is bogus or misrepresented. |
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Edited by
Moviemadness
on
Sun 02/15/09 07:02 AM
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who cares in todays modern world what anybodies sexuality is..i dont think dont ask dont tell is nescessarily the best policy...i think ask and tell might be the better solution...then allow for seperate housing... First I think don't ask don't tell is naive and childish. Since when are men such pussies that they can't handle such a simple thing like a sexual preference. In many cases the real problem for some straight men is that some one might think they are gay if they don't exagerate their manhood around the gay issue. As for seperate housing, come on, are we saying men in general can't control their sexuality? How the hell can they fight the enemy if they can't handle bunking next to a gay guy for pete sakes. I would seem to say that gay men have more courage than the average straight guy, if the gay guy can join the army knowing there are guys there that are insecure about their manhood. being worried about whether or not i'm going to have to worry about a gay guy that's next to me and being able to fight an enemy are two COMPLETELY different things. i don't feel uncomfortable at all pointing a gun at an enemy. so that's my thing against you. now for the part that agrees. anyone that volunteers to do it apparently at least thinks they can handle it. if they can't it's dealt with before you get in a situation that makes it life or death. many straight guys would throw their gun down and run away. it has nothing to do with sexual preference. you either can or can't do it. but why do homosexuals feel the need to be OPEN about it? i'm not OPEN about everything that has to do with me, everyone hides things. deal with it. there are stipulations still in our military that make not every job available to women, or even some men. deal with it. if there is a rule or law that says you can't do something for a certain reason there's always proof to back up why you can't. i'm colorblind, but i'm not fighting for the right to be in the explosive ordinance disposal career field (bomb squad) because i see why i can't be. look at what the job entails and ask yourself why those stipulations were made. it's usually because they've had people doing it or trying to do it before that didn't meet the current stipulations and they couldn't. if you can and you don't meet the stipulations then feel good for yourself. you're one of few, but don't fight for everyone else to be able to do it too because most probably can't. |
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I am beginning to think you have missed what I have said altogether.
.... so of course I am going to say something if the information is bogus or misrepresented. Oh, I misunderstood. I didn't realize that you served with Quiet_2008 and are able to de-validate what he said. 
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I am beginning to think you have missed what I have said altogether.
.... so of course I am going to say something if the information is bogus or misrepresented. Oh, I misunderstood. I didn't realize that you served with Quiet_2008 and are able to de-validate what he said.
I do not believe that 'every' gay that Quiet-2008 knew in the service was discharged. I doubt it, yes, which is my right as it is his to believe it. |
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I do not believe that 'every' gay that Quiet-2008 knew in the service was discharged. I doubt it, yes, which is my right as it is his to believe it. Then might I suggest that you state it as such, instead of telling someone that they are 'full of it' without complete assuredness? |
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I do not believe that 'every' gay that Quiet-2008 knew in the service was discharged. I doubt it, yes, which is my right as it is his to believe it. Then might I suggest that you state it as such, instead of telling someone that they are 'full of it' without complete assuredness? No, you may not suggest how I should post what I feel. No! |
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I guess then if someone doesn't mind labelling another a liar, I don't mind labelling one an idiot.
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I guess then if someone doesn't mind labelling another a liar, I don't mind labelling one an idiot. You can label me anything you want. It's a free country You seem to need someone to argue with today so have at it. |
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Edited by
MahanMahan
on
Sun 02/15/09 08:44 AM
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I guess then if someone doesn't mind labelling another a liar, I don't mind labelling one an idiot. 
In this forum, we're ONLY attacking gays and lesbians who are currently in the military. Please refrain from making personal attacks on gays and lesbians who are mingle2 members. Thank you berry much! |
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I'm wanting to argue?
Nah, you called my boyfriend a liar and I most assuredly will stick around and defend his good name, especially while he is not online to do so himself. |
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In this forum, we're ONLY attacking gays and lesbians who are currently in the military. Please refrain from making personal attacks on gays and lesbians who are mingle2 members. Thank you berry much! my statement was a general one mr. mahi mahi, and directed to no one in particular 
besides, i don't think we should be 'attacking' anyone. do you? |
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I'm wanting to argue? Nah, you called my boyfriend a liar and I most assuredly will stick around and defend his good name, especially while he is not online to do so himself. Now it's all starting to make sense. 
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In this forum, we're ONLY attacking gays and lesbians who are currently in the military. Please refrain from making personal attacks on gays and lesbians who are mingle2 members. Thank you berry much! my statement was a general one mr. mahi mahi, and directed to no one in particular
besides, i don't think we should be 'attacking' anyone. do you? OK there, Ms. PaperCut... Simmer down now! |
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