faith is required because something is unproven or unprovable beyond the mind which means at that point in time the subject in question or the logical outcome can not even be prove to exist ..which means that one can only be unsure

You saying you exist is not proof in your existence. People in my dreams may claim they exist, but when I wake up they dont. How do I know that we are not all just some other persons dream?

pass the mash potatoes please

Not true. proof is physical and whether you are sure or not is a state of mind. You don't need anything physical to have a certain state of mind.

If I think of a number and say I thought of 9, I have no proof of that yet I can still be sure that is what I thought of.

Some people devote their whole lives to their faith, priests, nun, etc. They do this usually because they are sure in their beliefs. Some people claim to have had visions. They can't prove they did but they are sure they did.

all one has to do is to say to theirselves that they exist and they therfore do exist but that only applies to the indivdual

Ok so where do the people that exist in my dreams go when I wake up?

can you pass the gravy now please

Exactly! So why on earth should I waste my time to prove anything to you when you probably don't even exist anyway. You are a figment of my imagination.

Since I am only certain that I exist, there may be no other people to bother proving that to. There is only me.

I am proof of the existence of something to the only something that exists....me.

JB

if the proof existed beyond the mind then you wouldn't need faith to place oneself in a certain state of mind to accept that reality



the number nine is not a reality but only a mental tool to count reality and once the reality is counted the number 9 disapates freezes or cease to exist which means the number 9 does not exist beyond your mind



"Chazster"..those having delusions will make those same claims

"Chazster" you yourself gave the answer ....those people exist in your dreams

None of those disproves my point that a state of mind does not need proof. Yes 9 is a concept, would you rather me think of an animal? The same rule will apply.

Just because people with delusions may make a claim doesnt mean that other people without delusions can make the same type of claim. Some delusional people claimed to be Napoleon, but Napoleon also claimed to be Napoleon.

If you want to be rational about this then lets think rationally. There are over 6 billion people on this planet and thats not counting the people that have already died or are yet to be born. For you to be right, ever person for their whole lives, has to have some doubt in everything that doesnt have proof. For me to be right only 1 person once in their life has to be sure in something without proof.

Actually a very good analogy, since the saving of the soul is the ultimate purpose and we can never really know which is the "one true religion". I would say covering all bases is a great idea if someone is afraid of what will happen to their soul after they die.

Now if one is in the religion for face value, which alot of them are, then you must pick the most common and most powerful in your area of all the religions so you can appear as one of the chosen ones.

Or if you feel like I do, you can forego all because you know that once you die it is lights out. Spirit is freed into the universe and thats all folks.

a coma is a state of mind



the same rule doesn't apply because animals can be proved to exist beyond the mind and numbers doesn't exist beyond the mind




..er.. "Chazster"..explain how you can tell the difference if neither have proof of what they claim exist ..I can't wait to hear this one




what's the point that you are trying to make ..simply ask for three forms of identification



"Chazster" both senerios you described are the same ...to prove this simply name that one person you was referring to that was sure about something without requiring proof beyond the mind ..

I can't see religion as a craps game. I don't believe you can hedge your bets where faith is concerned. I don't believe any of it counts for much if your heart is not in it. That is the whole purpose of proving your faith.

That being said...I was raised between an atheist and a devout Christian. As a result it was important to me to know that my faith was not just drilled into me through scripture reading and a desire to be like my mother. I studied many religious beliefs to find what rang true in my own heart. I would suggest a little soul searching to uncover your own faith.

Leucippus of Miletus- 5th century BC, believe in atoms and stated they were the building blocks of matter. No proof of this at the time.

You can debate and try to twist my words as long as you wont, but it won't make them untrue. You even want me to name people that were sure in something that isnt proven, when if fact the burden of proof doesn't lie on me because I am not claiming a definite, that my friend is you.

As for a delusion, if you have no proof it is a delusion then how can you claim it to be? A delusion is a fixed false belief. Unless you can prove it to be false you can't say its a delusion.

Yes a coma is a state of mind, what does that have to do with anything.

As for the animal, yes the same rule applies. The point being that I thought of an animal and the point being that there was no proof of which animal I thought of. Before our current technology someone could punch you in the face and there could be no proof that they did it.

Faith is a belief in something not proven, a belief is a psychological state in which someone holds something true. If you are unsure then you are not believing and thus you dont have faith. It is as simple as that. You may say you believe something, but if you are unsure then you dont really believe it and thus dont have faith.

why in unproven religion when an example is needed people runs to proven science ..and that explains why faith is needed ..because a religious example beyond the mind can never be given



because you 'Chazster" said that a state of mind doesn't requires proof ...a coma is one example that doesn't requires proof and delusion is another ...so can you tell of another state of mind that doesn't requires proof

Happiness, sadness, fear, anger, None of these states of mind require proof for you to have them. No states of mind require proof. It can be evident but it doesn't have to be.

And btw a delusion does require proof.

"Chazster" .....you are suppose to tell of a state of mind that is "sure" or "know" that a specific reality exist beyond that mind that doesn't requires proof to be sure that it does exist



no proof is required since all the delusional person have to claim is "faith" that it's not a delusion

If religion is true , we can find tons of proofs .
Since it is a hoax , we can not even come with one proof . Isn't that the truth ?.

Yes a delusion requires truth. A delusion is DEFINED as a fixed false belief. Unless you can prove the belief is false it is not a delusion.

When someone is happy, sad, etc. they are sure they are happy or said. The individual is sure. You might not be sure whether another person feels a certain way, but that individual is even if they can not prove it too you.