if you have "free Will" then tell of a rational thought that no one else ever said ...if you can not do it..then it means you don't even have the "Free Will" to think you own free thoughts

My mistake spider

Truly, I have no idea what I was thinking earlier.... will is not what one desires... you are correct in that.. :

Hell... I am gladly bowing out of this one... I have too much other stuff goin' on...

Funches, if you want to learn something about what will is, then go to the link I posted and do a little reading.

You obviously just want to waste my time with your childish challenges.

I pass.

JB

UR ON TO SOMTHING......IT WAS CALLED PRE-DESTINATION.....eaches path THEY picked before coming here, and since before coming here each was in a place with NO FEAR, we had PRIDE, and said of the script or path or movie or journey, NO PROBLEM, lol...... then each is CAST as a lure to earth, but the line is NEVER cut, and this line is a telephone line to ones own perfect spirit self, called a gaurdian angel, theophony, that is watching and learning by seeing the plight that fear cause itself.....(humans can clone).....when ones angel is close dejavu, apiphanies.....each mind see and react to each action thru fear, and eaches angel whisper at the same time the truth about the same situation minus fear......of course this answer sounds ludicris at first, lol....so we run from our own truths as all men do that first come to earth.......humans for a time are supposed to pick the fear thoughts which provide and entire agenda of proposed fear free living, lol........of course this agenda never works out, and along the way one learns many things that FEAR FREE LIVING COULD HAVE NEVER ACCOMPLISHED......but each day one listen more to their heart instead of the mind, and just do as they want, their WILL, instead of what they have heard is right or wrong, what will get them love being the most common, since of course if one came from unconditional love, one will seek it here from all they meet, lol......but the only place to find it is ones own angel, as this one whisper all along what you would DECIDE and DO if you were in heaven, no fear, with it......so ones spirit self is preparing the way for EACH......protecting from death when not yet time, miracles of sorts is was often called, lol.......when this process is accomplished one has met their founding father, or father in heaven.....father just meaning EACHES ROOT.....THEIR SPIRIT SELF AND PHYSICAL SELF NOW HAVE COME TO THINK ALIKE AND AGREE, LOL........if two agree and have no DOUBT anything is possible........THE TWO BECOME ONE.......so this process completed and you have the PERFECT will of your founding father, YOURSELF, and why it was said NO MAN CAN RESIST THE WILL OF THE FATHER, LOL......WE ALL GOT A FATHER, OR GAURADIAN ANGEL, that is constantly whispering but we run away in fear........this process would certainally make a being wise, teach it to believe in ITSELF, and make it one that when it arrive in a place of bliss, IT NEEDS NO BOSS......if man was born without fear NONE would have EVER committed any offense that harm another, lol......every good positive emotion of a race well done is certainlly felt after the experience, lol......and NOTHING that had experienced this phenomenon of mortal life would ever NOT appreciate immortal life, infinite love, perfect bliss, creating without physical effort, and would have learned all about living the opposite way, for wisdom to create wisely wihout mistake......and certainally have all things in common with all other beings.......

if one read this, does it make more sense that satan only be the way man think with fear, and god be only the way man think without fear.....totally truthful.....god was only called the truth......so nothing can resist the will of the truth, that was said was written on each heart.....hum.....there is more to this story that so many wish they knew..........it can only be disected with FEAR removed from each thought the mind hear

funches made a few very good points...



Allow me to add my personal view, now that I can.

If the will is free then it would exist without any dependency upon influence(s).

It does not.

The will is completely dependent upon and influenced by one's perceptual faculty as well as external exposure(s).

Something that is free is free from influence also...

The will changes as one's capability changes.

If it were free, it would be unaffected.




I suggest the term will be eliminated...

Focus on your definition of free...









It is the transcendental safety net of the 'God' of Abraham...

free will.....to chose ones OWN will free of fear, also called FREE MORAL AGENTS, or beings that were not tied to some moral standard.....why would a standard be needed unless one thought in advance none were good, lol.......the act of setting down a moral standard make for rebellion of any being that seek most to live without fear.......if all wish MOST to live without fear, than this alone is an indicator that EACH was birthed from a fear free place......

so "JennieBean" why has it become a challenge for you to form your own rational "Free Thought" if you truely have "Free Will" then surely you can perform that one simple task

so I didn't take your response personally because it was expected when you suddenly realized that you don't have the "Free Will" to carry out my request

"Free Will" is just another religious fantasy that people choose to believe in ...but how can one have "Free Will" when they can't even form their own rational "Free Thoughts ...

if anything you have "Free Choice" in which you are given a limited set of options and then forced to choose one or none and any choice that is forced is not "Free Choice" it was "Forced Choice"

all your thoughts were given to you and the influence is so strong that it's nearly impossible to form your own free thoughts ..which means you are little more than a Stepford Wife

original post was a two-fold question......why is no one addressing the "does god have a plan for everyone's life", lol......how can a debate over a couple of words have any meaning if an UNDERSTANDING of the WHOLE book has to be included in ANY and each ANSWER of it's meanings.......the words "free will" were lifted from the bible, so the definition of them must come from there, not from the minds of men that dicern al thru fear......but rather from the thoughts of men themselves after FEAR is removed when HEARING them.......

man is trapped in the "memory" of the conscious mind using only what is LAST and MOST remembered......obviously this will effect "free will".......

if one wants to understrand free will completely, then the memory capability of EACH wold have to be considered......

the CHOICES each would make WITH THEIR FREE WILL would HAVE to include this understanding of memory.......

also it would HAVE to include the type of energy FELT at each moment......

external energy is a KEY factor and effect all FREE WILL.....and why is was said GOD'S will was GREATER than any mans, as GODS will is the TOTAL TRUTH of HOW ALL NATURE WORK TO EFFECT EACH BEING, and even anything that exist...

an example would be the MOON.....the TOTAL TRUTH of how it effect the HUMAN body is total truth or GOD, and must be known if one wishes to make decisions MINUS it's effect......

it was said there were MANY gods, or truths, but to have no other god MORE important than TOTAL TRUTH OF ANYTHING, or the ONE GOD......

the body is MANUFACTURED AND BUILT ONLY "ONE" WAY......this is a total truth or "god" knowledge that REIGN supreme, not a being in a chair that is the MOST powerful from a human perspective of PERSONAL POWER, but rather the POWER OF KNOWING THE "WHOLE" TRUTH IS THE GREATEST POWER THAT BUILD ALL THINGS....

energy INPUT or EXPUT is not a choice until one sees where and what energy is, and the TWO kinds that PASS thru or EFFECT each, which effect "free will".......

if a child is born in a crib, it have free will to think ANYTHING at all about what it see, taste, smell, touch and feel with the conscious mind, and react and do in any way these things make it WISH to, but it still is NOT going to be able to make decisions without the limitiations of it's own experience making it LACK in TOTAL UNDERSTANDING of ALL the UNSEEN factors that are guiding it.........one cannot reason anything if being RIGHT or SMART is it's greatest agenda, and why it was said only one that seen thru the eyes of a child could find the truth......a child "discovering" FOLLOWS not the PRIDE agenda that come from the FEAR of being WRONG .......a child "FREE WILL" it's thoughts, as much as the LACK OF FEAR will allow, and why a child raised with parents that TAKE AWAY fear will excell greatly in all things.......

a child raised WITH THE PERPETUATION THAT THE FEARFUL ANSWER IS THE WHOLE CORRECT ANSWER, WILL MAKE MORE FEARFUL BASED DECISIONS......each perception then layered upon each NATURAL FEARFUL RESPONSE that was NOT revealed as UNTRUE by the parent......it already have will but not "FEAR FREE WILL".....so it become MORE fearful, and soon fail many times, lol........HOW can we know what "free will" would and could accomplish if each child is told ALL THE FEARS OF THE PARENTS, EVEN IN ADVANCE, LOL.......

SO WE HAVE NO PERFECT SPECIMEN TO KNOW WHAT "FREE WILL" IS minus the input of fear, and WITHOUT THE CORRUPTION OF ALL THE PREVIOUS GENERATIONS FEARS OF THEIR FAILURES INPUT AS EACH HAS BEEN "TAUGHT" FROM THE TIME OF A CHILD.........so one would have to go "back" and unprogram EACH decision, and then the TRUTH REMEMBERED of each decision that was based in FEAR for all the acts of ones entire life, to KNOW total FREE WILL......to go BACK? or FORWARD?

to go to a NEW place of FEAR FREE input into the FREE WILL OF THOUGHTS, AND THEN FREE WILL DECISIONS........the memory cannot be erased to achieve such, or the point of reference of an opposite needed for all things is now erased, so EACH memory or "mind" that has been "used" from a "flawed" state, or one that "peers" out thru fearful or negative, HAS to be undone to achieve free will without fear.......what on earth make any decision MINUS fear......NOTHING......this is the ENVIRONMENTAL FACTOR NOT EVEN FELT, BUT IS AS A TRAP WHEN SEEN AND FELT, that limit free will.......

so EACH is correct, free will is had, and also limited by environmental factors that are out of the.....read slow.....control of a limited free will, BUT, IF THE LIMITATIONS THAT LIMIT FREE WILL ARE SEEN, THEN THE FREE WILL HAS BECOME FOOLISH AND OR WISE, (AS WHICH IS BETTER, AS IT IS FEAR OF FOOLISH THAT SAY WISE BE BETTER,LOL)........AND NOTHING CAN LIMIT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT IS FEAR THAT READ DARKNESS IS A "BAD" THING....
IT IS FEAR THAT READ HELL IS A BAD THING....
IT IS FEAR THAT READ DAMNATION IS A BAD THING
IT IS FEAR THAT READ CAIN WAS A BAD THING
IT IS FEAR THAT READ SATAN IS A BAD THING
IT IS FEAR THAT READ HEAVEN TAKE WORK

IT IS FEAR THAT READ FREE WILL AND TRY TO PROVE HOW IT IS NOT, AS IT IS DISCOURAGED BY NOT HAVING WHAT IT WISH, AND IT FEELS THE PAIN OF FAILURE TO ACHIEVE WHAT ONE WANTS, WHEN "FREE WILL" WITHOUT FEAR READ AND TRY TO SEE "HOW" IT CAN BE TRUE, AND IN DOING SO UNCOVER THE TRUTH......

It is my opinion that the best definition of the Will, is "THE POWER OF SELF DIRECTION."

For example it is having the power to choose what you will do, what you will think and where you place your attention.

Your challenge relates performing (for you) something you define as a
~"rational free thought that no one else ever said" ~
which, by your very description, reveals your intent to demonstrate your point and belief that:



and that:




Having the power of self direction is just that. It is not about whether or not a person can have an original or "rational" thought.

You have revealed what you believe, and I have revealed what I believe. I have no intention or desire to jump through your hoops or to try to convince you otherwise.

That is an example of how I choose to exercise my will.

JB

then prove that you have the power of self-direction by simply forming your own rational Independent Free Thought ..how can you claim self-direction if you can't think for yourself independently ...come on "JennieBean" all I'm asking is for one little itsy bitsy rational thought all of your own ....

you either can or you can't ....but you won't be able to do it

every word written here by ALL is the power of rational FREE THOUGHT, lol.....jmo

then "Davidben1" let's see you get it a try.. form your own rational Free Thought Free from anything that anyone ever said before

I guess we all have our opinions.

It is my opinion that if will exists at all, it is free. It is simply the power of self direction.

There are many "influences" surrounding a person, and probably many that contradict each other.

The will chooses how it will perceive and perhaps how it will respond and act within the environment of these influences.

The will is the power to decide, not the decision itself. The will is not always what makes the decision but it is the thing that decides to decide.




The decisions made may be dependent upon perception, memory, emotion, external exposures etc. but the decision to decide is the will in action.




I respectfully disagree. Will is the power to act. It is the power to decide.



The will, to you, may not be a spiritual thing. You probably think of it as more of a mental thing. I think of it as a spiritual thing that powers the person.

To separate the description "free" from "will" would be like trying to separate the description "wet" from "water."


I am speaking of the Will, not of the perception of freedom.

Soul is free, Will is free ~ whether this is realized or not.

Therein is probably where we disagree.

We are (at least I am) talking about the will, which for me, is a spiritual concept and the power of self direction.

We are not talking about what is or is not "rational" or "independent" and therefore I cannot "prove" anything to you because we do not agree on the premise of what the will is.

Therefore you are simply barking up the wrong tree, and you do not make any sense.

JB

so "JennieBean" if we are not talking about the rational then are we talking about the delusional? ..you are not making any sense



well can we atleast agree that you don't have the "Free Will" to form your own rational free independent thoughts ....if not then form one of those thoughts...you don't have to prove it to me..but prove it you yourself ..at least to thine own self be true

Actually I find that this fits in quite well with the thread "Was Judas Iscariot really a bad guy?".

Free will = Yes he was.

God's plan = Then he was predestined to do as he did to fulfill God's will.

Hmmm?

if Judas had "Free Will" then Judas would have been God ..Judas only had 'Free Choice" and had "No Choice" but to be part of God's divine plan

We are neither talking about "rational" or "delusional."
These have nothing what ever to do with what I am talking about.

And, no we cannot agree funches, because you do not know what the will is, or at least we do not agree on what the will is therefore the question or problem you propose is meaningless, unrelated, and makes no sense.

We are not even on the same page.

If someone has the "will and drive" to accomplish something, will in this sense would mean knowledge or plan so in this sense "free will" would mean free knowledge or plan. Just a thought on free will.

I do understand how "free will" came into the equation in religion, there has to be a "will" to do evil or be "immoral" by the religions standards in order for the religion to make people feel guilt for their natural state of being and submit to the religion as bad humans that need redemption.

But outside of religion free will is what we do each day, when we choose what to do, what to eat, where to go, what to watch on tv, who to hang out with, etc..... Not saying that we do not have influences in our life, creative , that influence us on our decisions. Past experiences play a great role as do our taught perceptions but ultimately we can choose outside of our comfort zone or box at any time we want to so we use free will to make these choices.

As for predestiny, that is up in the air for me, not because of religion but people have "felt" as though something great they did or what they are good at in life was just "meant to be". This has absolutely nothing to do with god unless the person feeling it relates it to god themselves.

well "JennieBean" we're not on the same page only because your religious beliefs forbids you to turn it to that page

this can be proved by asking you a simple question

can you form just one rational Free independent thought that no one else ever said? ....yes or no